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  #21  
Old 07-18-2006, 05:14 PM
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I should imagine Maria will go. It isn't like the Romanov re-burials where there was the Church issue. This is one of her ancestors and there's no argument about the re-burial so I think she will go.
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  #22  
Old 07-18-2006, 05:23 PM
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Only if she behaves herself and doesn't insist on being addressed as Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna with precedence ahead of her relatives.
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  #23  
Old 07-18-2006, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I should imagine Maria will go. It isn't like the Romanov re-burials where there was the Church issue. This is one of her ancestors and there's no argument about the re-burial so I think she will go.
Er... Ancestor? Not in direct line, is she?
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  #24  
Old 07-18-2006, 07:27 PM
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They can't pick & choose who can come to the reburial can they? I'm assuming anyone from the Romanov family could go to the reburial if they wanted to, right? Or will the Danish RF be the ones to pick a select few to represent the Romanov family?
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  #25  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:11 PM
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She may not be in the direct line but the Empress is a relative of Maria's however distant. And Maria's proper title, agreed by State and Church is Her Imperial Highness The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna. She has a right to be addressed as such and to attend the burial service. I'm a support of Maria's in case you hadn't guessed but I really think she will attend with her son. The Tsar's burial was different but this is fairly open and shut.
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  #26  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Jennifer
They can't pick & choose who can come to the reburial can they? I'm assuming anyone from the Romanov family could go to the reburial if they wanted to, right? Or will the Danish RF be the ones to pick a select few to represent the Romanov family?
I think that the Russian Government may have some say.

The incident that branchg is referring to took place on July 15, 1998. Maria was going to attend the reburial of the remains of Nicholas II and his family at the Saints Peter and Paul Cathedral in St. Petersburg. Maria's cousin, Nicholas Romanov, head of the aforementioned RFA, was going to play an important role in the proceedings. I would imagine that Maria was (understandably) upset that the Russian Government was snubbing her by the role her cousin was going to play in the ceremonies, so she attended another memorial service at the Saint Sergei monastery in Zagorsk, which was organized by Alexius II, Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church.
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  #27  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
She may not be in the direct line but the Empress is a relative of Maria's however distant. And Maria's proper title, agreed by State and Church is Her Imperial Highness The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna. She has a right to be addressed as such and to attend the burial service. I'm a support of Maria's in case you hadn't guessed but I really think she will attend with her son. The Tsar's burial was different but this is fairly open and shut.
I completely agree.

Indeed I think one of the her most important supporters is the Patriarch, who had much to do with the funeral mass that was held for Wladimir and his subsequent burial at the Cathedral of Sts. Peter and Paul (which was presided over by Alexius).
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  #28  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:35 PM
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The reason Maria gave for not going to the reburial of the Tsar was that the Orthodox Church said that the remains were not authentic and therefore it would be wrong for them to give their blessing to the ceremony. Maria is a faithful Orthodox and therefore followed Patriatch Alexei II and as Benjamin rightly says, she attended a different service that was a memorial service rather than a funeral service.

President Yeltsin address Maria during his Premiership as HIH The Grand Duchess Maria. Putin has done the same. So the Russian Government have made it clear where they stand on the titles issue. The Orthodox Church have made it clear that they adore Maria. So, if the reburial in Russia is an Orthodox service as I believe it will be, Maria will most definately be there. I would imagine that the Church seating etc will be handled by the Church and not the Government and they will put Maria before anyone else.
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  #29  
Old 07-19-2006, 09:52 AM
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Thumbs up A Dignified Ceremony

Hi,

Yes Benjamin, I should think that the Russian government would have a great deal to say about this ceremony.
After all, it's Russian territory and 'the welcoming home' of a Russian Empress. I am glad that the Danish Royals and protocol are involved; therefore, we know it will be a dignified ceremony.

I certainly think that The Grand Duchess Maria should attend and perhaps further a healing among the Family.
We cannot have another example of the Savoys!!

Larry
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  #30  
Old 07-19-2006, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
She may not be in the direct line but the Empress is a relative of Maria's however distant. And Maria's proper title, agreed by State and Church is Her Imperial Highness The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna. She has a right to be addressed as such and to attend the burial service. I'm a support of Maria's in case you hadn't guessed but I really think she will attend with her son. The Tsar's burial was different but this is fairly open and shut.
She has no right to hold the rank of Imperial Highness or to be a Grand Duchess. She is simply Princess Maria Vladimirovna Romanovskaya, just like everyone else in the family, as a morganatic descendant of an imperial dynast.
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  #31  
Old 07-19-2006, 11:31 AM
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Well, I don't agree with you, I believe she is Her Imperial Highness and a Grand Duchess and whats more, she's got a right to call herself Titular Empress if she so wishes because that's her rightful position.
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  #32  
Old 07-19-2006, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg
She has no right to hold the rank of Imperial Highness or to be a Grand Duchess. She is simply Princess Maria Vladimirovna Romanovskaya, just like everyone else in the family, as a morganatic descendant of an imperial dynast.
Firstly, if you are going to use the morganatic argument against Maria then she wouldn't have any title. I'm not sure where you're getting that she would be a Princess Romanovskaya, as such a title has never been granted to Leonida as her marriage to Wladimir has been recognized as equal (not only by Wladimir himself) but also by practically all the Heads of European Royal Houses (to name a few, the King of Spain, the King of Romania, the King of Bulgaria, the King of Greece, the Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, the Prince of Prussia, the Count of Paris).

Secondly, the only reason that Natalia Cheremetevskya became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Brassova or that Mathilde Kchessinska became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Krassinskya or that Audrey Emery became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Ilyinsky or that Lady Mary Lygon became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky-Pavlovsky or that Emilia de Gosztonyi became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky or that Valli Knust became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky-Knust or that Antonina Nesterovskaia became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Strelynskaya or that Princess Irina Kurakina became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky or that Nadine McDougall became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky or that Countess Marina Golenistcheva-Koutouzova became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Kutusova or that Princess Natalia Galitzine became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky was because the aforementioned ladies' respective husbands (Mikhail Alexandrovich, Andrei Wladimirovich, Dimitri Pavlovich, Vsevolod Ivanovich, Gavril Constantinovich, Andrew Alexandrovitch, Dimitri Alexandrovich, & Vassili Alexandrovich) asked either Emperor Nicholas II, Grand Duke Kyrill, or Grand Duke Wladimir to grant their spouses a title so that their children would carry one. However certain other Romanov princes, namely Roman Petrovitch and Andrew Alexandrovich (in the instance of his first marriage) didn't ask the Grand Duke Kyrill to grant their morganatic wives titles and ipso facto their descendants are titleless. However that hasn't stopped their descendants (the most well known being Nikolai Romanovich) from firstly assuming the title of Princes/Princesses Romanov, which they have absolutely no right to, and then moving on (in Nikolai's case) to pronouncing themselves to be Princes/Princesses of Russia with the predicate of Highness, which is even more ridiculous and without grounds than the title that they claimed first.

Thirdly, I'm not sure how your insistence that Maria isn't an Imperial Grand Duchess is relevant to a topic discussing the reburial of Maria Feodorovna.

Sources for the first two paragraphs:
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  #33  
Old 07-19-2006, 01:06 PM
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Grand Duke Vladimir was the rightful Head of the House and certainly could grant titles and dignities as he saw fit. And yes, he did declare his wife and daughter to be of imperial rank with the title of Grand Duchess of Russia.

But that doesn't mean it was correct. If his wife, as a Princess Bagration, was declared of equal rank to marry an imperial dynast, then so were other marriages to Russian noblewoman from families inscribed in the Books of Nobility during Imperial Russia. Given this point, there are other, more senior male lines of descent that would be valid after Vladimir's death.

Nicholas Romanov is not a Prince of Russia nor does he have the right to style himself HH. He has no title at all.
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  #34  
Old 07-19-2006, 02:27 PM
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But surely it is correct because Grand Duke Vladimir had the total power to grant titles and if he made his daughter an HIH and a Grand Duchess then thats what she is.
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2006, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
But surely it is correct because Grand Duke Vladimir had the total power to grant titles and if he made his daughter an HIH and a Grand Duchess then thats what she is.
Completely agree. As Wladimir had absolute power over such things, as the Head of the Russian Imperial House does, then what he decided can't possibly be incorrect as it is the law.
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  #36  
Old 07-19-2006, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
But surely it is correct because Grand Duke Vladimir had the total power to grant titles and if he made his daughter an HIH and a Grand Duchess then thats what she is.
It's an open question because Vladimir did not clarify with the remaining dynasts (all of whom were of imperial rank before the Revolution and prior to his birth) why Leonida and Maria are HIH Grand Duchesses and Russian noble princesses of the Noblility who married imperial dynasts were not.

Most royal scholars agree the Bagration marriage could not possibly be equal under the Pauline Laws and Maria has the same status as other lines of descent.
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Old 07-19-2006, 02:55 PM
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But it isn't up to Royal Scholars. Its up to the Head of the Family who has just the same rights over the family as The Royal Martyr Nicholas had. So if Vladimir says they were HIH Grand Duchesses then he doesn't need to clarify it because what he says is what happens. As Benjamin said, it can't be incorrect because it's the law.
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  #38  
Old 07-19-2006, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg
Most royal scholars agree the Bagration marriage could not possibly be equal under the Pauline Laws and Maria has the same status as other lines of descent.
What persons do you include in "most royal scholars"? I have never read the book of one person who has written about Maria Vladimirovna who has ever denied her her imperial title (or if they did they have corrected their mistake in recent editions).

Here are some links to discussions on some other boards about Maria Wladimirovna:
"Bagrations and Romanovs" on alt.talk.royalty
"Maria Vladimirovna" on alt.talk.royalty
"Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna" on alt.talk.royalty
"Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia" on alt.talk.royalty
"The Imperial House of Romanov" on Royals Portal Forum

You will find that the overwhelming majority of persons recognize Maria as a Grand Duchess with the predicate of Imperial Highness. Many of the persons who take part in the discussions are either royal authors, royal researchers, monarchists, or persons whose have deeply studied this subject.
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  #39  
Old 07-19-2006, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
And Maria's proper title, agreed by State and Church is Her Imperial Highness The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.
Just to reinforce the fact that Maria is recognized in her rightful role by the Russian Federation, here is a link to a page on the Russian Federation's Dutch Embassy that talks about the dynastic ties between the Oranges and Romanovs where Maria is referred to as "the present Head of the Russian Empire House (sic) Sovereign Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna" (7th paragraph).

Source: Relations between the dynasty Orange-Nassau and the House of Romanov
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  #40  
Old 07-19-2006, 03:27 PM
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And that is saying something. If the Russian Federation and every other Royal House recognises her as a Grand Duchess and an HIH then that just adds to her role.
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