Murder of the Imperial Family 17 July 1918


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What the murders did was pave the way for Nazism.

For these reasons:

1) It set a precedent that government officials could decide the fate of millions
2) It set a precedent that anyone targeted was not entitled to a trial, but summary execution
3) It set the precedent that there were people classed as 'undesirables' and were therefore not human and allowed to be treated as human beings
4) It empowered the State to 'do what was neccesary,' no matter what that 'mission' was, leaving the 'mission' and 'solution' up to interpretation
5) Set up a structure of mass murder and all sorts of justifications
6) Enabled someone from a foreign country (Stalin was Georgian, not Russian) to come and take power and wield unchecked power over a country
7) Enabled a system to be set up where people could be taken out of their homes in the dark of night and murdered by secret police
8) Enabled leaders to classify humans as either useful or useless and therefore fit for extermination
9) Enabled Hitler to justify the murder of millions, pointing out Communists and using the threat of Bolshevism to justify his 'fight' aginst Jews
10) Enabled a system of arbitrary justice where one person could decide, while being as capricious as they wanted about the results

That is the real evil of the murder of the Imperial Family and the true evil of the Communists.

kell said:
Interfax-Religion
People of Russia do not have to repent for tsar family killing – culture minister

Moscow, October 31, Interfax - Russian Culture Minister Vladimir Medinsky does not believe that the blame for the killing of Russia's last Emperor Nicholas II and his family rests with the people of Russia.

"I don't believe the people of Russia should repent for the killing of the tsar's family because the people of Russia did not kill the tsar's family. It was done by several bastards on the orders of other bastards," the minister said at the 5th International Festival of Orthodox Media Faith and Word, commenting on the statement made by one delegate referring to the discussion on the need for the people of Russia to repent for their sins to the tsar's family, which has been occurring on the Internet for the past few years.

Medinsky also spoke about the issue of the burial of the body of Vladimir Lenin, saying that "the Culture Ministry will not come up with any initiatives regarding any burials and re-burials."

"It is our official position, and there is also my private opinion as a citizen," the minister said, adding that he would not like his private opinion on this issue, which he characterize as "rather sharp," to be associated with the official position of the government
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I have ot agree; Russians have done nothing wrong. It was a sick minority of sadists who had a class envy bone to pick. It was all about class, not about justice or about anything to do with real crimes. Regular Russians just wanted bread and shelter and solid good working conditions. they didn't want mass murder.

It irks me when reps of Maria V. spout about how all Russians must atone. I am sure that means that she deserves a throne.
 
It was horrific and tragic. They murdered children, which was heinous. But try and superimpose your thoughts to those that had lived in virtual destitution, ignorance and hopelessness those 300 years. And the callous ways they were treated. Nicholas was not a monster. And his height seems to be a focus, but it means nothing. His lack of compassion and real understanding of his subjects is his abject failure. And his wife's hypochondriac life didn't help. He was between a rock and a hard place.
 
Hi, @Countess! What makes you so sure, that you not fell for communist propaganda? I mean, there was hopelessness in Russia for 300 years? That depressed they were, they got a lot of things done!
 
I seem to remember some speculation that two (the youngest?) of the children were not murdered with the rest of the family. Has that been resolved? Was it simply because their bodies were not found with and at the same time as the rest of the family?
 
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So tragic. Why can't they just be left to rest in peace? :sad:
 
COUNTESS said:
It was horrific and tragic. They murdered children, which was heinous. But try and superimpose your thoughts to those that had lived in virtual destitution, ignorance and hopelessness those 300 years. And the callous ways they were treated. Nicholas was not a monster. And his height seems to be a focus, but it means nothing. His lack of compassion and real understanding of his subjects is his abject failure. And his wife's hypochondriac life didn't help. He was between a rock and a hard place.
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Nicholas and Alexandra never thought of themselves in the context of being rulers, but in the context of being simple middle class people. IT was this image of themselves that in fact undermined their willingness to facing the facts that needed to be faced and issues that he should have dealt with. He and Alexandra didn't see why there should be change and he clearly wasn't up to the task that would have strained the most enlightened ruler. I am certain however that Alexandra clearly wasn't much help and frankly I think she didn't get it that change wasn't bad and that Russians had a right to a say in their nation's affairs and also that they deserved better than a few token scraps sent their way.
 
Dee Anna said:
I seem to remember some speculation that two (the youngest?) of the children were not murdered with the rest of the family. Has that been resolved? Was it simply because their bodies were not found with and at the same time as the rest of the family?
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Has anything come of this? Last I read Alexie and a sister, Maria?, just weren't buried with the rest of the family but they did die together.
 
AristoCat said:
Nicholas and Alexandra never thought of themselves in the context of being rulers, but in the context of being simple middle class people. IT was this image of themselves that in fact undermined their willingness to facing the facts that needed to be faced and issues that he should have dealt with. He and Alexandra didn't see why there should be change and he clearly wasn't up to the task that would have strained the most enlightened ruler. I am certain however that Alexandra clearly wasn't much help and frankly I think she didn't get it that change wasn't bad and that Russians had a right to a say in their nation's affairs and also that they deserved better than a few token scraps sent their way.
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What is interesting is she was Queen Victoria's granddaughter, who was a Constitutional monarch. She spent many years at her grandmother's and was raised in this manner. Her mother, Princess Alice, was very avante guard. She believe that kings or queens didn't reign by the right of God. She was very open and caring. Frankly, Alix was a hypochondriac, a drama queen and very determined to be in charge. Read her letters to Nicky when he was at Stavka (Headquarters) during WWI. She liked autocracy, and she wanted her son, to inherit the throne with that power. She wasn't a German spy, she wasn't a terrible person, but she made a decision that she and her husband should not have to answer to anyone, except Rasputin. She was disliked and never made a real attempt to win over people. She laid on her divan, feel her heart enlarging, ( yes I know sounds ridiculous), but true. She loved her family and did not deserve her life to be taken as it was, but over the years of studying her, she was not a likeable person.
 
:previous: I agree completely.

Somewhat like Mary Todd Lincoln another misunderstood, basically decent woman who was simply not very likeable(from what I've come to understand) Alexandra and her husband paid a high price for their short sighted stubborn and misguided time on the Imperial throne, but their very innocent and very beautiful children paid the highest price of all.

For all that Nicholas and Alexandra were a great love story they were completely wrong for the role that fate and birth laid out for them.
 
COUNTESS said:
What is interesting is she was Queen Victoria's granddaughter, who was a Constitutional monarch. She spent many years at her grandmother's and was raised in this manner. Her mother, Princess Alice, was very avante guard. She believe that kings or queens didn't reign by the right of God. She was very open and caring. Frankly, Alix was a hypochondriac, a drama queen and very determined to be in charge. Read her letters to Nicky when he was at Stavka (Headquarters) during WWI. She liked autocracy, and she wanted her son, to inherit the throne with that power. She wasn't a German spy, she wasn't a terrible person, but she made a decision that she and her husband should not have to answer to anyone, except Rasputin. She was disliked and never made a real attempt to win over people. She laid on her divan, feel her heart enlarging, ( yes I know sounds ridiculous), but true. She loved her family and did not deserve her life to be taken as it was, but over the years of studying her, she was not a likeable person.
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In reading your comment, I see that you have studied this woman. I am wondering if you have any books that you could share on her and the family as I know very little about the royal family in Russia. I would really appreciate learning more and books are my way of learning. And I could always use more books...like my sister!
 
AristoCat said:
Nicholas and Alexandra never thought of themselves in the context of being rulers, but in the context of being simple middle class people. IT was this image of themselves that in fact undermined their willingness to facing the facts that needed to be faced and issues that he should have dealt with. He and Alexandra didn't see why there should be change and he clearly wasn't up to the task that would have strained the most enlightened ruler. I am certain however that Alexandra clearly wasn't much help and frankly I think she didn't get it that change wasn't bad and that Russians had a right to a say in their nation's affairs and also that they deserved better than a few token scraps sent their way.
Click to expand...


It looks like Alexandra gets the same kind of blame for the downfall of the Russian monarchy as Marie Antoinette got prior to the French Revolution. Controversies apart, I suppose it is always easier and tempting to focus on a single person as a scapegoat rather than acknowledging the inherent weakness of the system that single person was a part of.
 
I agree with AristoCat above, that the situation at the time in Russia would have been too much for any ruler to easily solve. Of course, I will not deny that Nicholas and Alix could have handled some things better. But it was time for a lots of changes to come anyway. There was no excuse for the murder of their innocent kids though...
 
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AristoCat said:
What the murders did was pave the way for Nazism.

For these reasons:

1) It set a precedent that government officials could decide the fate of millions
2) It set a precedent that anyone targeted was not entitled to a trial, but summary execution
3) It set the precedent that there were people classed as 'undesirables' and were therefore not human and allowed to be treated as human beings
4) It empowered the State to 'do what was neccesary,' no matter what that 'mission' was, leaving the 'mission' and 'solution' up to interpretation
5) Set up a structure of mass murder and all sorts of justifications
6) Enabled someone from a foreign country (Stalin was Georgian, not Russian) to come and take power and wield unchecked power over a country
7) Enabled a system to be set up where people could be taken out of their homes in the dark of night and murdered by secret police
8) Enabled leaders to classify humans as either useful or useless and therefore fit for extermination
9) Enabled Hitler to justify the murder of millions, pointing out Communists and using the threat of Bolshevism to justify his 'fight' aginst Jews
10) Enabled a system of arbitrary justice where one person could decide, while being as capricious as they wanted about the results

That is the real evil of the murder of the Imperial Family and the true evil of the Communists. ...
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What did the French Revolution of 1789 – 1799 pave a way to?

The enlightened western Europeans committed atrocities in Africa, both Americas, and India without enablers or justification.
 
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Furienna said:
I agree with AristoCat above, that the situation at the time in Russia would have been too much for any ruler to easily solve. Of course, I will not deny that Nicholas and Alix could have handled some things better. But it was time for a lots of changes to come anyway. There was no excuse for the murder of their innocent kids though...
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There was though - a living, breathing child of Nicholas and Alexandra would always have been a focus for opponents of the regime and so none of them could live.
 
The last Emperor

:previous: If the movie "The last Emperor" about China was right, then the Emperor of China became a gardener in the Forbidden City. And in China was a civil war too!

The imperial Family of Russia was just the first one murdered! Not the last one and not one of the millions inbetween!
​
 
Iluvbertie said:
There was though - a living, breathing child of Nicholas and Alexandra would always have been a focus for opponents of the regime and so none of them could live.
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If that was necessary then execute Nicholas Alexandra and Alexei (though that kills me) and let the daughters go.
 
If they were goig to be so ruthless, I think that they were going to kill the whole family, ot make sure that the immediate Imperial family was gone and could not be figureheads for a counter revolution. Poor Alexis, I think that although he was male, he was a sick chld who might not live very long.. In a way, there was more justification if they were being that brutlal for killing the girls.. THye were older and although there had not been an empress regnant for a long time, there were examples of women ruling
 
XeniaCasaraghi said:
If that was necessary then execute Nicholas Alexandra and Alexei (though that kills me) and let the daughters go.
Click to expand...


Even a living daughter would have been a target for royalists. They would have been able to be the focus of any attempt to overthrow the new government.

Given the number of Tsarinas in the past and the existing law (which was that girls could only succeed IF there were no males - not that they could never succeed) they were still very real threats and had to go.

Any Romanovs still in Russia when the Bolsheviks were in power were a threat to the regime and with the White army approaching there was no choice - even though many in the White army didn't want to restore the Romanovs and may even have killed them themselves.
 
Please!

Iluvbertie said:
even though many in the White army didn't want to restore the Romanovs and may even have killed them themselves.
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Wait, what? So, Lenin and his henchmen wanted to kill the Romanovs? And "many in the White Army" too?

Hmmm... And who were the oh so dangerous royalists, which threatened the new regime? Obviously not the red types, and as you say, not the "many in the White Army"... What means, that the royalists were a small minority! And they were that dangerous?

Lenin was the Leader and Organizer of the Red Terror. And the terror started, but by far not ended, with the killing of the Romanovs (imho).

Please, don't get me wrong! These here are the Royal Forums, a place for royal watchers - I for example like the monegasque family, they are very interesting... So, I do not want to bring any bitter thematics into this place, but my following citation makes perfectly clear, what these red dudes were all about:

"To overcome our enemies we must have our own socialist militarism. We must carry along with us 90 million out of the 100 million of Soviet Russia's population. As for the rest, we have nothing to say to them. They must be annihilated."
— Grigory Zinoviev, 1918

:ermm:
 
I am fully aware of what the reds were after thank you.

I am saying that not everyone in the whites wanted to restore the monarchy - the whites had NO clear aim at all. They weren't unified. There were some in the whites who were quite happy to see the end of the Romanovs and yes would have killed them if they got the chance. Others wanted to restore the monarchy and others simply wanted Russia to rejoin the war. There were other groups in the white army as well.
 
They might not have wanted a restoration but I can't quite see why they would be willing to kill the IF.
 
IIRC the DNA was a match though...


LaRae
 
:previous: Correct..they tested mitochondrial DNA from the remains of the bones from either the Empress or one of her daughters and it was an exact match with Prince Philip, their closest living descendant.
 
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How are they explaining the DNA match if it wasn't the Tsar and his family (or most of them).


LaRae
 
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