Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[COUNTESS]

You are on the mark.

 

[AristoCat]

I wonder if the Windsors would ever make a play for the position; the Kents, the various other families of the nobility of England.

 

[COUNTESS]

I doubt it. They all have comfortable lives in a very nice place.

 

[Al_bina]

The restoration that never happened| Blogs•Spletnik.ru

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Passed over by whom? The succession was automatic with Cyril assuming the Headship of the Imperial House with the death of Nicholas II, his son and his brother. All of the surviving dynasts, with the exception of Grand Duke Nicholas and Grand Duke Peter, publicly declared their support of Cyril and agreed with the table of succession.

The Dowager Empress refused to make a statement of any kind because she hoped beyond hope that somehow her son and his family had survived their terrible fate. She did acknowledge privately to her daughters that Cyril had the right to declare himself Head of the Imperial House.
.

Branchg, It was informative to learn that the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna privately acknowledged to her daughters, the Grand Duchesses Xenia and Olga, that the Grand Duke Cyril had the right to declare himself Head of the Imperial House of Romanov.
Did the Empress Marie Feodorovna ever put this viewpoint in writing?
If Yes, where is the document?
​

 

[Calum]

Leiningens as claimants

I was wondering, did Grand Duchess Maria Kirrilovna's marriage to the 6th Prince of Leiningen count as morganatic? Assuming that Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrrilovich's marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration of Mukhrani and all the other male Romanov dynasts' marriages were morganatic, descendants of Maria Kirrilovna are the only people with a valid claim to the former throne? However, if her marriage to The Prince of Leiningen was morganatic, they aren't.

Grand Dukes and Duchesses were required to marry individuals from reigning or royal families. So, my question is; are the Leiningens royalty or just nobility? They bear the style of Serene Highness, and as far as I can see, the title Fürst zu Leiningen is of nobility, and not royalty. They did not rule. If I am right, and Grand Duchess Maria Kirrilovna's marriage to The Prince of Leiningen was morganatic, there is no heir to the House of Romanov...

 

[Ish]

It's not as easy as "houses that have reigned are equal, houses that have not are not." An equal marriage could happen if the house 1. ruled a state or 2. belonged to a mediatized house (a list of such houses can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mediatization).

Leiningen was a mediatized house, therefore when Grand Duchess Maria Kirillovna married Karl, Prince of Leiningen it was an equal marriage. The marriage between Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich and Princess Leonida Georgeivna Bagration-Moukhransky is considered morganatic because the Bagration-Moukhransky's were not mediatized and Leonida was from a line of the family that hadn't actually ruled for some 400 years.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

To answer the starter of this whole thread (is there a chance of a restoration in Russia):

One needs a kingmaker, usually a strong figure able to enforce something in society. An essentially undemocratic institution as a monarchy is most unlikely to be restored out of free will. In 1935 General Georgios Kondylis enforced a restoration of the monarchy in Greece. The same happened in Spain where General Francisco Franco enforced a restoration of the monarchy (with a vacant throne until his death). In 1975 finally Don Juan Carlos de Borbón became King. Kondylis and Franco were dubious figures but powerful enough to enforce such a restoration, believing that this would serve the interests of their countries.

This means that one needs a strong advocate for a monarchy. Viktor Orbán, the powerful Prime Minister in Hungary is such a figure. With his mighty party he can enforce something in Hungarian society. In Russia, a more and more autocratic leader as President Putin, in a combination with Prime Minister Medvedev and Patriach Kirill can enforce a restoration of the monarchy as well.

If any former monarchy has a theoretic chance, then it is Russia, and Hungary. Of course these monarchies will be purely ceremonial, litterally to crown the refound splendour of Russia resp. Hungary, which is a deep zest for their leaderships, as we can see today. For many Putin/Medvedev/Kirill and Orbán are dubious figures but powerful enough -in theory- to enforce such a restoration, believing that this would serve the interests of their countries.

The problem with Russia is the hopeless division within the Romanov family as well the not very clearly outspoken will that any future monarch will only act as a constitutional head of state and be obedient to the Constitution. Only as a ceremonial head of state, there is a chance for a restoration. Those Russian pretenders sadly still have quite conservative and far-fetching ideas about what the role of a Tsar or Tsarina would be.

 

[Al_bina]

As it has been mentioned earlier, the current crop of the Romanovs had their chance in the 1990s, when the Russian Federation was in political and economic turmoil. The Romanovs lacked a charismatic leader then. They still do not have him/her. I highly doubt that they will find a powerful kingmaker and a moneyed lobby to restore the monarchy.
Personally I do not think that President Putin is as omnipotent as the western media paints him to be. Patriarch Kirill has working relationships with the current Russian government and does not need extra headaches.

 

[Calum]

Leiningen was a mediatized house, therefore when Grand Duchess Maria Kirillovna married Karl, Prince of Leiningen it was an equal marriage.

Thank you for that, it is most interesting and helpful.

 

[Cory]

Eurohistory: Russia: Sublime Ridiculousness: Tsar Nicholas III

Some Russian monarchists have hailed Prince Carl Emich of Leiningen as the new Head of the Imperial House.
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[COUNTESS]

Eurohistory: Russia: Sublime Ridiculousness: Tsar Nicholas III

Lots of nonsense. Makes some kind of news.

 

[Dman]

Just wanted to know- Would Russia be better off if the Monarchy was restored?

 

[Al_bina]

This nonsensical question can be asked about the USA, Romania, Georgia, France, Egypt and many other countries that had monarchs. What would the restoration do better than the current Russian government has been doing?

 

[COUNTESS]

You are right. Putin aside, the Romanoffs were self-centered, bigoted and mostly dedicated to their own well being,. It is their great way of governing that created the atmosphere for the revolution.

 

[Blog Real]

I don't agree with anything. And the Republic was established in Russia in a horrible way. They should do a referendum.

 

[Al_bina]

The republic in Russia was established in the French way. It would be worth noting that the bumpkins won the civil war in 1920s and established the power structure they wanted.
The referendum would be more appropriate in Romania as the deposed King is still alive.

 

[Ish]

If you study French history you'll notice that in the 200 years following the French Revolution they went through 3 monarchies, 2-3 empires, and 5 republics. I'm no exactly sure if following their plan for revolution works - even now in the Fifth Republic (which has existed for about 70 years), things in France aren't always stable.

A referendum on the form of government used is useful in any country where the people are not satisfied with the government, and any country that claims to be democratic should allow for such a referendum if the people demand it.

The problems in Russia - or the US or France, etc - aren't likely to be solved simply by changing the system of government. The problems aren't necessarily because of the system so much as because of the way people are manipulating the system, and the way the voters are allowing that manipulation.

To me, I think if there is strong support for a restoration of the monarchy in any country - be it Russia, France, Romania, etc - then a referendum should happen because that's democracy at play - it shouldn't matter if the person claiming the throne is the deposed monarch, as in Romania, or a descendant of a former monarch, nor should it matter if there is one clear claimant or several. The will of the people is, at least theoretically, what democracy is about.

 

[Al_bina]

I am aware of the twisting French history. Lenin did study the French revolution of 1789–1799, when the Bolsheviks planned the uprising. Russia has already had major upheavals in 1990s.
Furthermore, the current Romanovs did not and do not enjoy any significant public support to warrant a referendum.

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

Well you've got to admire Karl Emich's ambition. Head of the Imperial House of Russia? No way! He is the Emperor. According to his Imperial Manifesto, Emperor Nicholas III is also the successor to the thrones of the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire. In fact, His Imperial Majesty is the successor of the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great. But there's more! To ensure unity between Christians the world over, the new Emperor sees his role extending to "the New World, Africa, Australia and the islands." No mention of Asia, well, not yet.

I wonder why he waited so long to proclaim his imperial state? It's over 22 years since the death of Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich; that's a long time to leave his usurping cousin Maria Vladimirovna thinking she is number one.

 

[Ish]

I had to look this up and am dumbfounded.

I would think that he had to wait so long because from a technical standpoint he has no claim over Maria or the other Nicholas. His claim isn't through any form of traditional succession rules but rather because the Monarchist Party of Russia declared him their candidate for the throne not last year (they were only founded the year before).

 

[AristoCat]

^I don't know how else to say this, but if a reality television series were done about the Romanovs and their drama surrounding the claiming of the Headship of the House of Romanov and of course, the "Throne," I am certain that it would get massive ratings. Sheer, pure, entertainment.

As for Asia, I am certain that the Emperor of Japan and the Chinese and the people of Thailand might have a problem with that.

 

[Ish]

There would be no mention of Asia because the Russian, Byzantium, and Roman Empires were all European and Asian in scope.

If he's claiming to be the rightful ruler of Russia then that extends in a physical sense to Russia and, possibly, the former Russian Empire. His claims beyond that seem to be more of a theological one, in a position similar to that of the Pope.

 

[AristoCat]

Very interesting; I wonder, what is it about the Headship of the House of Romanov and "Throne" (I use that very loosely) that is so attractive? It's like the Romanovs are going crazy over this, at least Vladimirovna did.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Very interesting; I wonder, what is it about the Headship of the House of Romanov and "Throne" (I use that very loosely) that is so attractive? It's like the Romanovs are going crazy over this, at least Vladimirovna did.

Prestige. For an example Maria Vladimirovna Romanova and her son are regular guests at major royal events. They are meeting the high and the mighty. They are treated with égards. The same with other pretenders like the Duke of Bragança or the Prince of Prussia. They have access to the high and mighty. They get seats of honour. They are treated with respect and égards. Purely because they are head of the House which played such an important role in the history of their respective countries.

Apart from the claim of Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, no one can deny the energy, the commitment and the zest she and her son always have shown for their ultimate goal. We can not say the same about the members of the Romanov Family Association whom all seem to miss the nose for publicity, media-attention and public visibility. The Grand Dukes Dimitri and Andrew are very old and frail gentlemen. Prince Andrew's sons are simply invisible, not to mention the other Romanovs.

 

[COUNTESS]

Most of them have gone on with their lives and accepted that restoration is not a real possibility. So, they live their lives as they are today.

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna also lives her life as it is today, and what a blast she seems to have. I wish I had half the energy and enthusiasm she shows on her official visits and tours.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Most of them have gone on with their lives and accepted that restoration is not a real possibility. So, they live their lives as they are today.

It is not only about restoration. All know that this chance is purely theoretical. It is also about the headship of the House, being the guardian and representant of one of the most illustrious and powerful families ever in Europe. And as said, it brings prestige, it brings VIP-treatment, etc. The average Russian will not meet President Putin or the King of the Netherlands. The average Russian will not be interviewed by television channels. With this the Grand Duchess and her son are not different from all these many illustrious German, Austrian, French and Italian families doing their utmost best to preserve their family heritage and history. And I praise them for doing so. All these families could have sold their ancestral homes, art collections, etc. and go to Marbella and live a jet-set life. Families who do all efforts to preserve their immense patrimonim and try to prevent sinking away in obscurity deserve my respect.

 

[AristoCat]

I wonder why so many reigning dynasties don't have the same respect for their ancestors.

 

[Ish]

What do you mean?