Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[AristoCat]

No. Some go by Salic Law (men only) and then others go by Right of Primogeniture (men take precedence, with women after if in fact there are no men left), and then the basic law of succession that means the eldest will reign, no matter the Gender.

 

[Cory]

Wonderful and very serious article about the succession:

THE RUSSIAN IMPERIAL SUCCESSION

 

[Midwestern Mom]

Ok so does the Orthodox Church recognize Grand Duke Krill and his descendants to be in line for the throne?

Thanks for the link!


MM

 

[Cory]

The Russian Orthodox Church had always done that.The descendants of morganatic marriages are respected but not considered dynasts.

 

[AristoCat]

Cory, I take it you're in the pro-Maria camp?

 

[Cory]

I do not see any problem in the Russian Succession.Respecting the Laws of the Imperial Family Grand Duchess Maria is the Head of the Imperial House and her son is the Heir.Who says the contrary maybe do not know the Laws of the Imperial House very well or do not accept this reality because do not like Grand Duchess Maria as a person.
I am not a great admirer of the Grand Duchess but I can't deny she is the Head of the Imperial House.

 

[Midwestern Mom]

Ok so why is it there is a dispute over the succession?


MM

 

[Lenora]

Ok so why is it there is a dispute over the succession?


MM

Because there are no direct heirs(descendants) of the last Tsar

 

[Cory]

The descendants of morganatic marriages ( members in a private association mainly) do not accept the fact they do not belong to the Imperial House and that's why they continue to comment about Grand Duchess Maria.The European Royal Houses and the Russian Orthodox Church and the russian authorities have always recognized Grand Duchess Maria as Head of the Imperial House respecting the Laws of the Romanov Dynasty.

 

[Midwestern Mom]

Because there are no direct heirs(descendants) of the last Tsar

Well I know that but the line should pick up at the next closest royal relative, is there a dispute as to who that is?


MM

 

[Cory]

There are only two members of the Imperial Family who descend from equal marriages:Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke George.So...

 

[Lenora]

Well I know that but the line should pick up at the next closest royal relative, is there a dispute as to who that is?


MM

Actually there is one ,as the descendants of the last Tsar's sisters ,basically do not want to recognize GD Maria Vladimirovna as a legal heir.Of course I do not mean all of Romanovs,many of whom are rather indifferent of this matter.

 

[Cory]

Grand Duchess Maria was the closes female relative of Grand Duke Vladimir so that's why she inherited the dynastic rights.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Midwestern Mom, the closest male relative to Nicholas II were his sisters Olga and Xenia. I believe Xenia is the only one who still have descendants alive and they are the closest link to Nicholas.

 

[kell]

auctually olga kulikovsky the younger sister has grand childern as well living in canada and denmark excsue the spelling the youngest is in hamilton canada xenia is in denmark with her very large family near the capital copphagen she with her son paul even though she has some others do historical work with charties auction houses about her grand mother btw she had 2 sons married during the war in denmark also so that branch is alive and kicking too

 

[Cory]

Midwestern Mom, the closest male relative to Nicholas II were his sisters Olga and Xenia. I believe Xenia is the only one who still have descendants alive and they are the closest link to Nicholas.

Olga was one of the closest FEMALE ( not male) relative of Nicholas II.The order of Succession after Nicholas II was the following: his son Alexei, Grand Duke Mihail Alexandrovitch, Grand Duke Kirill.Nicholas II abdicate for him and for his son, Grand Duke Mihail alexandrovitc renounce to his rights and Grand Duke Kirill became Head of the Imperial Family accepted by the dynasts.

When Grand Duke Vladimir dies there was no other male dynast and so the closest female dynast Grand Duchess Maria, became Head of the Imperial House.

 

[kell]

mikhal didnt renouce his rights he passed it onto the provinsal government baring a election on what kind of government people want

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Thanx for the info about Olga's family Kell, I had no info on them and assumed they had died out. So there are descendants of both sisters alive today.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Olga was one of the closest FEMALE ( not male) relative of Nicholas II.The order of Succession after Nicholas II was the following: his son Alexei, Grand Duke Mihail Alexandrovitch, Grand Duke Kirill.Nicholas II abdicate for him and for his son, Grand Duke Mihail alexandrovitc renounce to his rights and Grand Duke Kirill became Head of the Imperial Family accepted by the dynasts.

When Grand Duke Vladimir dies there was no other male dynast and so the closest female dynast Grand Duchess Maria, became Head of the Imperial House.

If the last Tsar's closest relatives are not eligible for the throne because they are descended from his sisters, then I don't think Maria or her descendants are eligible either. Who would be the next male relative available? Is there any male out there who descended from a male relative of the Tsar but with no interruptions in male to male line of descent?

Besides, if Maria's claim is legitimate, then she should not be considered head of the Imperial House but her son should be. She is ineligible to claim the throne under existing law.

Because the throne no longer exists, and because we seem to discount existing law if we recognize Maria's claim as legitimate, then we should be considering the descendants of Grand Duke Dimitri so long as the male descendants are products of a lawful union. No need to see that the marriage is performed by an Orthodox priest to a female convert to Orthodoxy who also happens to be a member of a ruling family.

 

[Cory]

Who were the male dynasts at the death of Grand Duke Vladimir?There was nobody because all the other descendants of the imperial family were from not equal marriages.That's why Grand Duke Vladimir respecting the Imperial Law made Grand Duchess Maria as Heir.
The descendants of Grand Duke Dimitri belong to an aristocrat family because of not equal marriage and have no dynastic rights.

After the death of Grand Duke Kirill the "de iure Emperor" was Grand Duke Vladimir.At his death there was no other male dynast (Prince Vassily of Russia had died in 1989) so the succession passed to the closest female relative of the "de iure Emperor" (of Grand Duke Vladimir) :Grand Duchess Maria.Somebody should read carefully the Laws of the Imperial House before speaking on this issue.

RussianImperialSuccession

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

But if Grand Duke Vladimir bent the laws by naming a woman as Heir, then they all should be bent. This is picking and choosing at its worst. If a woman can be designated as heir (and I don't have a problem with a woman being the heir) but the law specifically forbids a woman from inheriting the throne, then who is to say that the other laws cannot be bent as well? It seems to me that the all the laws apply equally across the board or none of them do; in the latter case, the heir should be the closest blood relation to the last Tsar of All the Russias.

 

[Lenora]

Actually the Rules of Succession are well-known,but there are groups or people who want to change or modernize them according to the realities of modern Russia

 

[Cory]

Grand Duke Vladimir respected totally the Laws of Succession when he appointed Grand Duchess Maria (the closest female eligible relative of him) .The problem is that some tiny groups try to ignore the rules in order to offend the Imperial Family and the hystoric traditions.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

How can you say that when Maria is ineligible to claim the throne? Why is one law ignored? Where is the authority for ignoring one aspect of the succession? Don't you think it is a little suspicious that Vladimir bends the rules to accommodate his heir?

 

[Cory]

Have you ever read the Laws of Succession?If you did your question is useless.
The laws states that the succession will pass solely to male dynasts until the death of the last male dynast, in which event it will pass to the female dynast most closely related to the last emperor.Article 27 specifies that both genders have the right of succession to the throne, with preference to male dynasts by order of primogeniture but with the succession of female dynasts by substitution upon extinction of the male dynasts. Article 6 provides that, when the throne passes to a female dynast as empress, she has the same supreme and autocratic power that an emperor would have.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I clicked on the link you provided but I do not see Article 27. I have two questions: is this the document drafted by Emperor Paul? And if so, wouldn't the last emperor be Nicholas II, so it would be a woman (or man) most closely related to him? I just would like to see some proof.

 

[Cory]

The last "de iure " and "de facto "Emperor was Nicholas II. After him we could speak only about "the iure" Emperors (Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovitch, Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovitch, Grand Duke Vladimir Kirilovitch and now Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna).
If you read carefully the article you will find the answers to all your doubts.

Imperial Law concerning Succession:

Chapter Two On the order of succession to the Throne

 

[branchg]

If the last Tsar's closest relatives are not eligible for the throne because they are descended from his sisters, then I don't think Maria or her descendants are eligible either. Who would be the next male relative available? Is there any male out there who descended from a male relative of the Tsar but with no interruptions in male to male line of descent?

Besides, if Maria's claim is legitimate, then she should not be considered head of the Imperial House but her son should be. She is ineligible to claim the throne under existing law.

Because the throne no longer exists, and because we seem to discount existing law if we recognize Maria's claim as legitimate, then we should be considering the descendants of Grand Duke Dimitri so long as the male descendants are products of a lawful union. No need to see that the marriage is performed by an Orthodox priest to a female convert to Orthodoxy who also happens to be a member of a ruling family.

The problem with Maria's claim is the fact her father, Grand Duke Vladimir, did not marry equally under the Pauline Laws, if we accept her mother, Princess Leonida Bagaration-Moukhrani was not of a royal house.

Although Vladimir was the Head of the Imperial House when he married Leonida and therefore obviously declared his marriage equal, previous imperial precedent is clear the Bagrations were nobility for centuries and subjects of the Tsar at the time of the Revolution. This is where the rift with the other branches of the family began and has remained since.

If Maria is ruled ineligible and the other male branches are defunct of dynasts, the throne would have passed through the Vladimirovchi female line after Vladimir's death either through his sisters, who married equally to German royals, or, through his aunt, Grand Duchess Helen Vladimirovna, to her descendants through her Orthodox marriage to Prince Nicholas of Greece & Denmark.

The eldest line would have passed through Helen's daughter, Princess Olga of Yugoslavia, to her eldest son, the present Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, who is Orthodox and married equally.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

The last "de iure " and "de facto "Emperor was Nicholas II. After him we could speak only about "the iure" Emperors (Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovitch, Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovitch, Grand Duke Vladimir Kirilovitch and now Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna).
If you read carefully the article you will find the answers to all your doubts.

Imperial Law concerning Succession:

Chapter Two On the order of succession to the Throne

Thanks for providing the link, but maybe it is the lawyer in me, but I think you can interpret those articles to read that the descendants of Xenia and Olga, being daughters of Alexander III, the next to the last Emperor-Progenitor, to have a more valid claim than Maria. Of course, there is the tricky issue of morganatic marriages.

Is this document the one drafted by Paul? Who wrote this and when?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

And I don't think Georgy will get married or have children if he does. So then what?