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  #941  
Old 08-24-2014, 10:42 AM
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And not everyone agrees Maria is born of an equal marriage as her mother was not royal under the Pauline Laws. The Bagration-Moukhransky line of the Georgian Royal House was nobility in Imperial Russia and never considered to be equal to the Romanovs.
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  #942  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:04 AM
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And not everyone agrees Maria is born of an equal marriage as her mother was not royal under the Pauline Laws. The Bagration-Moukhransky line of the Georgian Royal House was nobility in Imperial Russia and never considered to be equal to the Romanovs.
Sure, the supporters regard her as dynastical and the non-supporters do not. But when you see her line of succession (Russia, Leiningen, Prussia) one can not deny it is all darkblue blood and that can not be said from the other line with "Prince Cory" born out of wedlock. In that sense Maria Vladimirovna's pretension is superior.
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  #943  
Old 08-24-2014, 12:32 PM
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She meets the requirements of being of a royal line, but bluntly put, they're all largely German and allegedly there's a residue of resentment because of WWII against Germans.



I admit I'm shocked at the fact that he had a child out of wedlock via a mistress; I was shocked when I heard about it and frankly it was a surprise to know that he ended upeven having a mistress in the first place.
There are two Romanovs considering themselves a successor with a child out of wedlock:
- Rostislav Rostislavovich Romanov (1985) has a son with a (former) girlfriend. His son Michael (2013) is therefore not in line of succession but dad himself considers him a Prince Romanov;
- Nicholas Nicholayevich Romanov (1968) has a son with a (former) girlfriend. His son Cory (1994) is therefore not in line of succession but also this dad himself considers him a Prince Romanov.



It is hollow when the rivalling branch dares to doubt the suitability of Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya, discussing if she was meeting the requirements exactly or not. I am okay with that but not while the "rivals" themselves all, one by one, have thrown all possible standards out of the window. Come on, where is the reciprocity in the blaming here? Do the rivals themselves have any stand to criticize the Ebenbürtigkeit of Princess Leonida?
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  #944  
Old 08-24-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AristoCat
She meets the requirements of being of a royal line, but bluntly put, they're all largely German and allegedly there's a residue of resentment because of WWII against Germans.
Ah, an acknowledgement that the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has the superior royal claim, but then you immediately attempt to discount it by moving the goalposts.

I'm sure there remains a great deal of resentment in Russia (and elsewhere) against what Germany/Germans inflicted upon the country and its people during WWII, but that has little relevance to who carries the mantle of Headship of the Romanov dynasty.
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  #945  
Old 08-24-2014, 04:53 PM
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I can understand when the one branch says that for an example the marriage of Grand Duke Roman Petrovich Romanov with Countess Praskiova Sheremeteva or the marriage of Grand Duke Andrey Alexandrovich Romanov with Donna Elisabetta of the dukes Sasso Ruffo are 100% dynastic in case the marriage with Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya is seen as dynastic. D'accord... then the two blue-blooded marriages can have a catfight with the other blue-blooded marriage.

But how can the other branch ever dispute if Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya was yes or no exactly meeting the dynastic requirements when they themselved have married partners as Miss Kathleen Norris, Miss Zoetta Leisy, Miss Lizzy Flores, Miss Christina Ipsen, Miss Pamela Kuzinowski, etc.? I am really fine with that but there is absurdity in claiming that the other branch is "not meeting the requirements" (not deep blue-blooded enough) while the own branch has the one break after the other break of the dynastic marriage requirements. Allez....
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  #946  
Old 08-24-2014, 10:20 PM
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Sure, the supporters regard her as dynastical and the non-supporters do not. But when you see her line of succession (Russia, Leiningen, Prussia) one can not deny it is all darkblue blood and that can not be said from the other line with "Prince Cory" born out of wedlock. In that sense Maria Vladimirovna's pretension is superior.

I think the strength of Maria's claim lies more in the fact her father was unmarried when he became Head of the Imperial House. Since only the Tsar could determine whether any marriage was equal or not, obviously Vladimir declared his own marriage as dynastic.

Vladimir also was the last surviving male dynast when he died in 1992. Maria married equally and she is the senior male-line descendant of Alexander II.
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  #947  
Old 08-24-2014, 10:37 PM
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Cory Romanov died at the age of 3 in 1998 in quite tragic circumstances.
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  #948  
Old 08-25-2014, 04:05 AM
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Cory Romanov died at the age of 3 in 1998 in quite tragic circumstances.
Ow I missed that in the Romanov genealogical tree, his death was not mentioned,. What happened to the young boy?

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  #949  
Old 08-25-2014, 10:01 AM
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But how can the other branch ever dispute if Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya was yes or no exactly meeting the dynastic requirements when they themselved have married partners as Miss Kathleen Norris, Miss Zoetta Leisy, Miss Lizzy Flores, Miss Christina Ipsen, Miss Pamela Kuzinowski, etc.? I am really fine with that but there is absurdity in claiming that the other branch is "not meeting the requirements" (not deep blue-blooded enough) while the own branch has the one break after the other break of the dynastic marriage requirements. Allez....
I think the worst that the older members of the rival branch have said is that Princess Leonida was no more equal than their own mothers who also came from the Russian nobility. The headship of the other line is based on their interpretation of the House Laws and an Imperial Ukase from 1911, believing that only Grand Duke’s have to marry equally and that Princes of Russia could marry people of “good standing” and transmit their rights to their children.

For this reason Prince Nicholas Romanovich assumed the headship of the Imperial House after Vladimir’s death instead of his cousin Prince Paul Romanovsky-Ilyinsky, who although senior by primogeniture because his father Dimitri was a Grand Duke and married unequally he could not transmit succession rights to his children.

So I believe Prince Nicholas Romanovich and the other Romanov’s, although they probably aren't very fond of her, regard their cousin Maria as a Princess of Russia as they only recognised her father by his birth title Prince of Russia. And as a Prince of Russia he married a woman of “good standing”.
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  #950  
Old 08-25-2014, 10:20 AM
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Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

Nicholas Romanovich's interpretation of the Pauline Laws is ridiculous. While it's true Nicholas II issued a Ukase allowing Princes and Princesses of the Imperial Blood to marry unequally (with the approval of the Emperor), he made it clear these individuals were required to relinquish their succession rights beforehand and their children would not be dynasts.

The Laws also required dynasts to seek and receive permission of the Emperor before marrying, something Nicholas Romanovich's father, Prince Roman, failed to do. That resulted in the automatic loss of succession rights.
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  #951  
Old 08-25-2014, 11:00 AM
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Maybe, following the most rigid interpretation and without an Emperor to allow exceptions, we can say that all Russian dynasts have outmanoeuvred themselves with their marriages? Result: there are no dynasts anymore?



With accepting the union with Princess Leonida as dynastic, following the "Germanic" system that when not Ebenbürtig (= of equal rank) at least it should be Standesgemäß (= belonging to the same level in society) then also the unions with the Countess Praskiova Sheremeteva and with Donna Elisabetta of the dukes Sasso Ruffo were dynastic too. The descendants of the last two ladies however all married not Standesgemäß.

Then the line of Maria Vladimirovna and her son remains superior (and after them Leiningen and Prussia) because they are all Standesgemäß. It will collapse down when Grand Duke Georgy does not meet his mother's standards, which are the base for her pretension....
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  #952  
Old 08-25-2014, 02:40 PM
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Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

All of the current descendants are morganatic and there are no surviving dynasts under the Pauline Laws. Maria is more or less accepted as Head of the Imperial House on the basis of the fact her father alone had the right to accept any marriage as equal or not, she was raised Orthodox, her mother was born Orthodox, and she married equally.

The other descendants are not in compliance with the Laws on many counts, while Maria is only questionable in terms of whether her mother should be considered royal. It seems reasonable to say Leonida was of sufficient rank for Vladimir to declare her equal.
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  #953  
Old 08-26-2014, 03:26 AM
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Ow I missed that in the Romanov genealogical tree, his death was not mentioned,. What happened to the young boy?

He died at the hands of his mother's lover after the divorce of his parents.

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  #954  
Old 08-26-2014, 05:02 AM
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He died at the hands of his mother's lover after the divorce of his parents.

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I found this: "Young Nick, who lives in San Diego, has been married and divorced twice. He had a son, Cory Christopher, born in 1994, by his first wife, Lisa. After their divorce, she moved with Cory and her boyfriend, Richard Tiarks, to Memphis, Tennessee. On January 5, 1998, Tiarks killed the little boy, and was sentenced to 15 years in prison."

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  #955  
Old 08-26-2014, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I found this: "Young Nick, who lies in San Diego, has been married and divorced twice. He had a son, Cory Christopher, born in 1994, by his first wife, Lisa. After their divorce, she moved with Cory and her boyfriend, Richard Tiarks, to Memphis, Tennessee. On January 5, 1998, Tiarks killed the little boy, and was sentenced to 15 years in prison."

Oh...how incredibely horrible and sad....
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  #956  
Old 08-03-2015, 03:49 PM
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Royal Russia News: Legitimist Addresses Succession Issues
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