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  #681  
Old 12-04-2011, 04:29 AM
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Ugh; I have no idea on how she can do anything with Putin at all, I really don't. It's not smart to expose yourself to those types, they can only do you harm, nothing good and she is preventing her son from being able to interact with his family on a healthy basis.
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  #682  
Old 12-04-2011, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Michael Romanov was elected by the Moscovite nobles to become Tsar, but he did have a bloodline to Ivan, so there was some rationale to the decision.

The former dynasty of Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp is defunct since Nicholas II abdicated and Grand Duke Michael declined to assume the throne. They are also extinct of dynasts in the male-line with Vladimir's death in 1992 under the Pauline Laws.

So, there is certainly a valid argument that a restoration of the monarchy could be with any number of possibilities. It would not necessarily be limited to any of the current descendants.
How to prove the last Russian historical research, Nicholas II did not abdicate the throne. There is no anywhere of the document of abdication. It was supposed to be manifest. On site in the Russian archives is a slip of paper, where there is a pencil signature of the emperor, transferred by the glass with a known signature of the sovereign.

Fake slip of paper.
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  #683  
Old 12-17-2011, 11:24 PM
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The Caputo Family Association apparently recognizes her:
Pretenders to the Throne -
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  #684  
Old 12-19-2011, 05:56 PM
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How to prove the last Russian historical research, Nicholas II did not abdicate the throne. There is no anywhere of the document of abdication. It was supposed to be manifest.
I wonder just how much of it was consensual and yet, so much of it was under duress. I just wonder, what on EARTH would make the Romanovs agree to a successor and head of the family? I don't think there should be anything resembling a restoration until the Romanovs even agree to who should be the head of House.
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  #685  
Old 12-19-2011, 09:25 PM
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There will be no Romanov or any monarch of Russia. This is all, silly, conjecture, on a site that invites opinions, which is nice, but has no, real, basis, in fact. Who cares if Nicholas abidicated, he signed a document, or didn't. They have been dead for almost 100 years. It would be like decendants of Cleopatra, trying to revive the throne in Egypt, after the revolution last spring.
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  #686  
Old 12-19-2011, 09:30 PM
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yes, well, that's what this thread is for, to enjoy debating these things.
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  #687  
Old 12-21-2011, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
I wonder just how much of it was consensual and yet, so much of it was under duress. I just wonder, what on EARTH would make the Romanovs agree to a successor and head of the family? I don't think there should be anything resembling a restoration until the Romanovs even agree to who should be the head of House.
It seems obvious that, if abdication was tampered, then all the stories about the consent of Nicholas II abdication - a gross lie. He knew the inability of the conspirators to responsible governance. Add to this his great sense of liability Nicholas II for Russia before God. In this case, it was evident from the strong opposition of the emperor and only blackmail loss of his family and his isolation allowed the conspirators to bring revolution to the end.
Participants in the conspiracy have gone so far that they had no more to do but fake abdication.
The Romanovs mostly is combined. Full consolidation may be the result of a variety of possible events. And if it will be minimized outside interference in their relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
There will be no Romanov or any monarch of Russia. This is all, silly, conjecture, on a site that invites opinions, which is nice, but has no, real, basis, in fact. Who cares if Nicholas abidicated, he signed a document, or didn't. They have been dead for almost 100 years. It would be like decendants of Cleopatra, trying to revive the throne in Egypt, after the revolution last spring.
To all God's will.
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  #688  
Old 12-21-2011, 05:45 PM
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Yes, I suppose you are right about there being no monarch of Russia, Romanov or other, Countess. Maria V. still claims the 'dynasty' will be under the rule of her son, 'Tsarevich' Georgi. Are there any descendants of Cleopatra around any more, I wonder?
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  #689  
Old 12-21-2011, 06:17 PM
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Very good point in post #668, AristoCat. How many 'real' Romanovs(no pretenders or claimants included) do you think there would be to 'fill up' this room? It's too bad the dynasty had to end the way it did in 1918, but now even with a 'Commonwealth of Independent States' there are probably some areas there that haven't improved since Communism ended in the early 1990s, or maybe as far back as the Revolutions of 1905 and 1917. No one in Russia wants a restoration of any kind of monarchy, so the Romanovs(ffs) can fight amongst themselves all they want. They're only interested in bringing the dynasty back for themselves, not the citizens.
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  #690  
Old 12-22-2011, 12:59 PM
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According to unconfirmed reports in the restoration of monarchy in Russia stand about 30% of the population. What is the name would not be power in Russia - is always a autocracy. Therefore, the monarchy is the most harmonious form of governance.
The present system of government in Russia located in the ideological impasse. This showed clearly that the elections to the Duma.
During the monarchy of the Romanovs - the 300-year tradition and... the tragic practice. Do the current Russian government only interested in bringing for the citizens, rather than on its authority?
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  #691  
Old 12-22-2011, 01:29 PM
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Maria would be regarded by the Gotha, the church and most. Certain family members disagree, and the government has to a certain extend let both sides act regal in Russia. The disagreement was focused on there still being male dynasts alive when she was proclaimed although since none could pass the throne to morgantic heirs it was a temporary arguement. They also questioned her parents and grandparents marriages but there is evidence that disputes their claims on the first and the recognition of her nephew and his son David as would-be kings by the Georgian government damages their second claim. The one being propsed as an alternative is definately the product of a morgantic marriage and the differerence now is more just personal - a battle of personalities. Maria could probably ease the differences by giving them some sort of recognition and being more respectful; and vice versa. If it can be worked out, then she can show up at their ball and they can treat her like a Tsarina. If it can't be worked out cause there is too much bad blood, then they can opt for Georgi and Maria can have a role as mother.

The other issue this all hinges on is who Georgi marries. He needs to find a bride that is acceptable to Pauline laws and the Russian people. They can't restore the monarchy til they first know it has a future. Georgi may need to have a wife or fiancee first.
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  #692  
Old 12-22-2011, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
Maria would be regarded by the Gotha, the church and most. Certain family members disagree, and the government has to a certain extend let both sides act regal in Russia. The disagreement was focused on there still being male dynasts alive when she was proclaimed although since none could pass the throne to morgantic heirs it was a temporary arguement. They also questioned her parents and grandparents marriages but there is evidence that disputes their claims on the first and the recognition of her nephew and his son David as would-be kings by the Georgian government damages their second claim. The one being propsed as an alternative is definately the product of a morgantic marriage and the differerence now is more just personal - a battle of personalities. Maria could probably ease the differences by giving them some sort of recognition and being more respectful; and vice versa. If it can be worked out, then she can show up at their ball and they can treat her like a Tsarina. If it can't be worked out cause there is too much bad blood, then they can opt for Georgi and Maria can have a role as mother.

The other issue this all hinges on is who Georgi marries. He needs to find a bride that is acceptable to Pauline laws and the Russian people. They can't restore the monarchy til they first know it has a future. Georgi may need to have a wife or fiancee first.
What about the rejection of the throne by Kirill Vladimirovich:



"On the rights of our own and in particular, and on my succession, I ardently love their country, fully subscribe to those thoughts that are expressed in the act of refusal of the Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich.
Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich."
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  #693  
Old 12-22-2011, 03:45 PM
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Duress - doing what you must to sane one's self and family - it counts no more than the forced abdication of King Michael of Romania and no one is disputing his claim.

In a hereditary monarchy you can't exclude someone and their family cause you dislike them.

Plus if you exclude Maria and Georgi and say there are no dynasts left - then what about the Leiningens and Prussias. Did Maria and Kira give up their claims when they married? One can't be heir to Leiningen/Prussia and Russia - but next after Georgi would be Cecelia, who is not the heir, since women would be included under Russia but not Leiningen.
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  #694  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:13 PM
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If in a bizarre twist of fate Russia ever decided they wanted a monarchy again why not let them elect whomever they chose to be the new monarch and founder of the new reigning dynasty. If a Romanov was elected that would no away with all the disputed claims within the family, and if they selected somene lese well that how democracy works.
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  #695  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:16 PM
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I am very proud that I am a Romanov | New Style Magazine (english version)

Nicholas says they could not support him cause of what he had done not that he was not the hereditary heir, and since they did not recognize him they do not recognize the title of Grand Duke he bestowed on his son Vladimir.

Nicholas now seems to making more of a claim that once there are no male dynasts it reverts from Pauline to Salic before it starts to include women. He thanks god that under salic law Maria is excluded (personality rift). But it is my understanding it reverts under Pauline law to allow women after there are no mal dynasts. So if is within Pauline law this happens how can it revert to Salic first.

"By doing this, Paul insisted on semi-Salic order of succession, in effect excluding women from the line of succession to the Russian Throne. Passing of the throne to the female line was only allowed in the absence of legitimately-born male dynasts."

Also if had been the case that he is right - then why does he call himself the head of the Romanov dynasty - wouldn't it then be under salic law Dimitri Romanovsky-Ilyinsky?

At the same time others are promting as heir Rostilav whose claim is greater through the female line and proximity to Nicholas.

They change their arguments, go back on their arguments, and they don't make sense to me. It is just about tring to exclude Maria somehow.

It seems to be a dispute of personalities btween Kirill and his relaives and that the hostility has been passed on through generations on both sides. They do not want Maria to be Tsarina and they just come up with excuses to try to exclude instead of just coming out and saying we hate Maria. Yet they hate Maria not because there is a problem with Maria - but because they have been raised to hate her and her family through generations and vice versa.

It may come down to a romanov getting either elected or creating a cult of personality around themself in Russia. None right now have that much of a presence and they generally don't live there. I can only see either Maria, Georgi, or maybe Rostilav try to do that right now.
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  #696  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:24 PM
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I have a hard time envisioning a cult of personality developing around Miria. She would need one hell of a good PR agent.
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  #697  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
I am very proud that I am a Romanov | New Style Magazine (english version)

Nicholas says they could not support him cause of what he had done not that he was not the hereditary heir, and since they did not recognize him they do not recognize the title of Grand Duke he bestowed on his son Vladimir.

Nicholas now seems to making more of a claim that once there are no male dynasts it reverts from Pauline to Salic before it starts to include women. He thanks god that under salic law Maria is excluded (personality rift). But it is my understanding it reverts under Pauline law to allow women after there are no mal dynasts. So if is within Pauline law this happens how can it revert to Salic first.

"By doing this, Paul insisted on semi-Salic order of succession, in effect excluding women from the line of succession to the Russian Throne. Passing of the throne to the female line was only allowed in the absence of legitimately-born male dynasts."

Also if had been the case that he is right - then why does he call himself the head of the Romanov dynasty - wouldn't it then be under salic law Dimitri Romanovsky-Ilyinsky?

At the same time others are promting as heir Rostilav whose claim is greater through the female line and proximity to Nicholas.

They change their arguments, go back on their arguments, and they don't make sense to me. It is just about tring to exclude Maria somehow.

It seems to be a dispute of personalities btween Kirill and his relaives and that the hostility has been passed on through generations on both sides. They do not want Maria to be Tsarina and they just come up with excuses to try to exclude instead of just coming out and saying we hate Maria. Yet they hate Maria not because there is a problem with Maria - but because they have been raised to hate her and her family through generations and vice versa.
Nicholas' comments in the article were discussed in another thread, but the bottom line is his interpretation of the Pauline Laws is nonsense. He has consistently stated that Princes of the Blood were not bound to marry equally (which is true), but Grand Dukes of Russia were (also true).

As such, since there are no Grand Dukes surviving, his position is Princes of the Blood who married unequally since the Revolution could pass their succession rights to morganauts, which is incorrect. The Laws are clear the issue of such marriages had no rights to the throne whatsoever.
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  #698  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:30 PM
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I think there are enough flaws in all their claims to say that under strict interpretation of the Pauline laws no candidate has a perfect claim to the throne.
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  #699  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:37 PM
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Absolutely. In reality, they are all morganatic under the Laws.
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  #700  
Old 12-22-2011, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I think there are enough flaws in all their claims to say that under strict interpretation of the Pauline laws no candidate has a perfect claim to the throne.
I said she might try - did not say it would succeed.
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