Marie Pavlovna "The Elder" (Grand Duchess Vladimir) (1854-1920)

[magnik]

What kind of relationships she has with the rest RIMF?

About her genealogy:

Maria Pavlovna von Mecklenburg-Schwerin

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Thanks for the website.
Thats an awesome way see her ancestors.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Marie was a huge snob, and her views passed down to her daughter Elena, Princess Nicholas of Greece. Elena looked down on her sister-in-law Alice, Princess Andrew (mother of the Duke of Edinburgh), who was born a mere serene highness and only acquired her royal highness by marriage. Elena was both an imperial highness (by birth) and royal highness (by marriage). Her attitude improved after Alice's sister Louise became Crown Princess (later Queen) of Sweden and her son married the future Queen Elizabeth.

 

[Marengo]

Does anybody know which American author she once invited to a party of hers? I believe she was a bit appaled by his visits to poorer Russians and she told him 'come to my party and see how real Russians live', or something in that direction.

 

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

You question is rather broad. What exactly is it that you want to know? She was very ambitious for her family (ie her sons) and didn't hold Alexandra Feodrovona in any high regard. In fact, she went around stating that the Empress needed to anhilated.

Obviously Maries guardian angel was listening and made sure that happened for her!

 

[lexi4]

Marie was first engaged to George Schwarzburg. Upon discovering this in 1871, the Crown Princess of Prussia wrote to Queen Victoria: "Marie of Schwerin you have no doubt heard - is engaged to that stupid George Schwarzbur...it is officially announced - it was her own doing, he is a greater goose than ever." She eventually broke of the engagement in favor of Grand Prince Vladimir Alexandrovich. If memory serves, I don't think she was required to change her religion and therefore, remained Lutheran.
Lexi

 

[scooter]

Is this lady the source of the famous emerald set now in BRF? How did it come to change hands?

 

[lexi4]

Is this lady the source of the famous emerald set now in BRF? How did it come to change hands?

I would love to see a photo of those emerlds.

 

[EmpressRouge]

No, the emeralds were Queen Mary's and called the Cambridge Emeralds. The tiara was sold to Queen Mary after the revolution because she like the rest of the family was in need of money. The Cambridge emeralds were incorporated into the tiara by Queen Mary and now Queen Elizabeth. I think I read in Leslie Field's book that there was a condition placed on the emeralds that they were not allowed to leave the country.

 

[JPhinala]

Marie didn't sell them herself, though they are hers. They were sold just after she died. Which was immediately after she reached Paris.

 

[lexi4]

Who got the money from the sale?

 

[Russophile]

Marie was first engaged to George Schwarzburg. Upon discovering this in 1871, the Crown Princess of Prussia wrote to Queen Victoria: "Marie of Schwerin you have no doubt heard - is engaged to that stupid George Schwarzbur...it is officially announced - it was her own doing, he is a greater goose than ever." She eventually broke of the engagement in favor of Grand Prince Vladimir Alexandrovich. If memory serves, I don't think she was required to change her religion and therefore, remained Lutheran.
Lexi

No she didn't convert and that was a big bone of contingency between them (The supporters of Kyrill) and the rest of the family.

 

[Marengo]

She converted later, when Kyril and Ducky were living in a sort of exile and Miechen tried anything to have the Tsar change his mind about this exile. Note that she did critisize Alix for converting to Orthodoxy when she married Nicholas.

 

[lexi4]

Her choice of a patronymic name was interesting. She chose Pavlona after her grandfather Grand Duke Paul Friedrich of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and after her great grandfather, Tsar Paul of Russia.

 

[Russophile]

She converted later, when Kyril and Ducky were living in a sort of exile and Miechen tried anything to have the Tsar change his mind about this exile. Note that she did critisize Alix for converting to Orthodoxy when she married Nicholas.

I read that in Wiki (just now) but am wondering Marengo, do you have another source? Cuz I don't remember reading that in Massie's N & A. Thanks!

 

[Marengo]

My first hunch is Charlotte Zeepvats article(s) from Royalty Digest (later bundled in 'Romanov Autumn'. But I will have to check that... Or maybe Arture Beeche's 'Grand Duchesses'.

 

[Tarlita]

For those of you looking for information on Grand Duchess Vladimir your best source is Alexander palace time machine and the forum pages there. Also a recent book Imperial Dancer by Corryn Hall has some excellent bits and pieces on Meichen. Her son Boris sold his inherited emeralds from Meichen to Cartier and there is a Cecil Beaton photo of Barbara Hutton wearing some of the emeralds. Also type in Grand Duchess Vladimir jewels and get a german site 'schmuck' [I think]with fabulous pics sadly one in black and white but she is bedecked with jewels for the 1903 fancy dress ball. Also rockefella bought an emerald brooch of hers 107 cts this info is on this site. She is one of histories great characters and I wish someone could write a book about her.

 

[lexi4]

My first hunch is Charlotte Zeepvats article(s) from Royalty Digest (later bundled in 'Romanov Autumn'. But I will have to check that... Or maybe Arture Beeche's 'Grand Duchesses'.

It isn't in Romanov Autumn. I just checked. It talks about how hurt Marie was when Ella decided to convert.
Lexi

 

[JPhinala]

I know there's a piece about it in The Flight of the Romanovs. I'm almost positive that Maria Pavlovna converted later because when people contest Maria Vladimirovna (as I often do) it isn't ever mentioned that it is a morganatic branch. The branch is considered legit. so I think it's safe to assume she did convert. I don't remember when exactly but I'm pretty sure it was in 1907 or 1905.

 

[lexi4]

I know there's a piece about it in The Flight of the Romanovs. I'm almost positive that Maria Pavlovna converted later because when people contest Maria Vladimirovna (as I often do) it isn't ever mentioned that it is a morganatic branch. The branch is considered legit. so I think it's safe to assume she did convert. I don't remember when exactly but I'm pretty sure it was in 1907 or 1905.

Yes, it was legit but that was because that is part of what Alexander II agreed to before the marriage. I can find no reference that she ever converted. In fact, Zeepvat says that never forgave Ella for converting.
Lexi

 

[COUNTESS]

In the book "Ella" Princess, Saint & Martyr, by Christoper Warwick, it is mentioned that Grand Duchess would remain staunchly loyal to Luteranism and she only converted to Orthodoxy during the early years of the 20th Century, for politcal expediency, when it briefly looked like Kyril might stand a chance at inheriting the throne.

 

[Russophile]

An opportunist! Hmmm. Doesn't surprise me. She was a strong woman.
I have that book. Haven't read it yet. It's cluttering the night table.

 

[lexi4]

I still can't find anything about Maria Pavlovna converting.

 

[Russophile]

Is there anything about her relationship to Ducky?

 

[katmax]

Here's some more images of Maria Pavlovna that may interest people here. I love these court dresses. One thing I've noticed is that despite owning a rather famous and extensive jewel collection she tends to wear a lot of the same pieces over and over again in her formal court photos. The pearl drops surrounded by diamonds are also creatively used in different places in her outfits.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian Court Dress/GDMarie2.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian Court Dress/germanpc.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian Court Dress/GD_Marie.jpg


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian Court Dress/Marie_tiara.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian Court Dress/mpthee.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian Court Dress/gdmarie72.jpg


And a picture of her at church in Contrexeville in the south of France, where she eventually died.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian Court Dress/atchurch.jpg

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Thanks for sharing the photos, Katmax!
What a woman!! And what an Empress she would have made!!

 

[Avicenna]

In the book "Ella" Princess, Saint & Martyr, by Christoper Warwick, it is mentioned that Grand Duchess would remain staunchly loyal to Luteranism and she only converted to Orthodoxy during the early years of the 20th Century, for politcal expediency, when it briefly looked like Kyril might stand a chance at inheriting the throne.

You can also find information on her conversion in the autobiography of Prince Roman Romanov, a grandson of Prince Nikolai Nikolajewitch the older (1831-1891) brother to Alexander II. The German version was called "Am Hofe des letzten Zaren" published by Piper. Translated from the danish version "Det var et rigt hus, et lykkeligt hus". The original manuscript was written in russian by Prince Roman Romanov. His sons took care of the translation and publication. BTW Prince Roman Romanov left Russia in 1919 on the British battle ship Marlborough.

Page 275 Chapter on "My three travels to Moscow":
He describes that he hardly knew his aunt Ella for she rarely left Moscow to go to St. Petersburg. When going to St. Petersburg she would visit Alexandra Fjodorowna, but did not stay with her at Zarskoje Selo in order to avoid Maria Pawlowna. Furtheron the book explains the differences of the two women and mentions also that Maria Pawlowna could not understand the state of mind of Ella and that she was pretty ironic on her humanitarian involvement and religious believes. "A few years ago converted to the orthodox believe, she kept this believe only for formal reasons, whereas aunt Ella believed with her whole heart" (My own translation - sorry if it is pathetic). Well the book continues with the differences of the two ladies ...

 

[Russophile]

Very interesting Avicenna. Was it ever translated into English for those of us who are language challenged?

 

[Avicenna]

Very interesting Avicenna. Was it ever translated into English for those of us who are language challenged?

Sorry, but I do not know this. I found this book by accident in a museum shop in Berlin. The ISDN is 9783492243896. Maybe your local book store can help? It was published by Piper Verlag GmbH, München, back in 1991.

 

[Attaining Grace]

I have read that she was extremely strong and dominating so she wasn't very popular. She seemed to have a rather annoying personality. I think that Minnie sounds nicer!

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