Marie Pavlovna "The Elder" (Grand Duchess Vladimir) (1854-1920)

[CarolinaLandgrave]

So you enjoyed the book? If so, I'll tell Greg. I haven't read that one yet.

I very much enjoyed this book, Russo - you really need to add it t you collection.
Full of great info on so much of Imperial Russia in the last days

 

[Marengo]

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!

To prince Günther Victor of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen (the future Fürst of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen). He was the brother of Miechen's stephmother, Grand Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

To prince Günther Victor of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen (the future Fürst of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen). He was the brother of Miechen's stephmother, Grand Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

Thank you for finding that for us, Marengo. Where ever did you dig that up?

 

[Marengo]

I still remembered reading it somewhere & it stayed in my head. I believe from a book in German that I have about German princesses at the Russian court. I don't have it here though. Or maybe from Romanov Autumn.

 

[snowflower]

To prince Günther Victor of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen (the future Fürst of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen). He was the brother of Miechen's stephmother, Grand Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

Wow Marengo,bravo for finding it out! I am still extremely astonished that she actually broke up her engagement . but Marie had an appetite for advantageous marriage - I admire her nerve ofr actually proposing to Nicholas and Alexandra a marriage between one of her sons ( Boris I think) and Olga!

 

[Grace Angel]

Yes, it was Boris and Olga.. that potential match was none too popular with Alexandra though, for obvius reasons. I've always been surprised that Marie P didn't put more pressure on her younger sons to marry suitably and continue the dynasty, rather than being playboys, basically.. or maybe she did and they didn't heed it,I can't remember.

 

[Russophile]

Yes, it was Boris and Olga.. that potential match was none too popular with Alexandra though, for obvius reasons. I've always been surprised that Marie P didn't put more pressure on her younger sons to marry suitably and continue the dynasty, rather than being playboys, basically.. or maybe she did and they didn't heed it,I can't remember.

Well gee, when the court seemed to know Missy's daughter Mignon was Boris' and not Ferdinands. . . .I don't blame Alix.
Perhaps Meichen thought there was more time for her brood to settle down? Surely she never thought that the Bolshies would have wiped out her entire world. Nobody could have.

 

[pamela18335]

Miechen couldn't have been too happy with the spouses of any of her brood, with the possible exception of Victoria Melita (Ducky). After all, her other boys married their mistresses, Andrei to Mathilde Kschessinskaya, the paternity of whose son was never truly established. Elena went to a minor Greek prince. Must have been galling to a woman who coveted the Russian throne for her son, Kyrill, and possibly connived in a plot to overthrow Nicholas in favor of Kyrill just before or in the early days of the war.

Emphatically NOT one of my favorite Romanovs

 

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

Well, she is one of my favourites if only in the fact that she wasn't dull...
We might not like her much, but she is fascinating - all her conniving and manipulations came to naught, but she kept on hoping for her & their future(s)...
A fascinating fact:
She was the last Romanov to leave Russia and the first to die in exile...

She was known as 'the grandest of the Grand Duchesses', a well deserved appallation.

Others who were grand, but not as famous:
Aunt Sanny (GD Alexandra Iosephovna)
Aunt Stassie (GD Anastasia Michaelovna [Mecklenburg])
Marie Coburg (GD Maria Alexandrovna)


Larry

 

[Russophile]

I certainly would have loved to have seen her, however. My but she would have put the GRAND in Grand Duchess!

Pamela, do you think that Andrei felt he "had" to marry Mathilda when they were in exile. In her book, Dancing in St. Petersburg, she makes no mention of being passed between the Grand Dukes (Of course, some things are better left unsaid) however, given the fact that she was the sole breadwinner in Paris en exile and their circumstances had drastically changed, do you think she might have put an ultimatum on Andrei?

I had read in the Ducky book that actually the family was rather pleased with Elena's choice: It had gone better than they expected given the temperment of that Grand Duchess.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

From all I have read, Russo, this seems to be my take, too. Even though Miechen was not "stoked" at first about Prince Nicholas b/c he was the younger son of a monarch....

I had read in the Ducky book that actually the family was rather pleased with Elena's choice: It had gone better than they expected given the temperment of that Grand Duchess.[/QUOTE]

 

[pamela18335]

I certainly would have loved to have seen her, however. My but she would have put the GRAND in Grand Duchess!

Pamela, do you think that Andrei felt he "had" to marry Mathilda when they were in exile. In her book, Dancing in St. Petersburg, she makes no mention of being passed between the Grand Dukes (Of course, some things are better left unsaid) however, given the fact that she was the sole breadwinner in Paris en exile and their circumstances had drastically changed, do you think she might have put an ultimatum on Andrei?

I had read in the Ducky book that actually the family was rather pleased with Elena's choice: It had gone better than they expected given the temperment of that Grand Duchess.

Russo, my speculation is that Andrei married her both because he loved her, and because of her wherewithal. Andrei accepted and claimed paternity for Vladimir (Vovo), but from bits here and there, he doesn't seem to have been the bounder that his brother Boris was. (On the side, I find it interesting that Wiki calls Kschessinskaya's son "Vladimir Sergeyevitch", giving him the patronymic that suggests that Sergei Mikhailovich was the father, rather than "Andreyevich" since Andrei did claim paternity. Wonder where they got that from?)

By the by, Andrei was also one of the few Romanovs who recognized Anna Anderson as Anastasia. I hate to admit it in this august forum, but I still have plenty of questions about the outcome of that one!

 

[Russophile]

My Peter (Kurth) says that they were passing her back and forth between them and neither knew nor cared. I can't remember where he got this info.

 

[AristoCat]

That would be interesting because didn't Michen NOT convert from Luthernism until later? After Nicky and Alix were married??

Actually Grand Duchess Vladimir loathed the English, was a total Anglophobe and thought that Alexandra was shirking her duties in regards to running the social life of the Imperial Court. Another source of rage was that Marie wanted Alexandra's daughter Olga to marry her son Boris, but Alexandra vehemently rejected the suit, which was a snub to Marie since it was done on behalf (and at the behest) of Marie as well as for her son.

makes no mention of being passed between the Grand Dukes

That is just sad, being used like that by two prestigious men and then marrying one of them. Just, ugh; to think, she was also the mistress of Nicholas II when he was Heir, then tossed aside for Alexandra.

 

[Russophile]

That is just sad, being used like that by two prestigious men and then marrying one of them. Just, ugh; to think, she was also the mistress of Nicholas II when he was Heir, then tossed aside for Alexandra.

She was a shrewd woman and was able to live in considerable style as well as receiving quite a few pieces of jewelry that she sold to start her own little ballet school in Paris. IMO she was fine with the arrangement.
Have you read "Dancing in St. Petersburg" ? It's a very interesting bio. Very good.

 

[Tarlita]

Another excellent book is Imperial Dancer by Coryn Hall. Well researched and written.
Mathilde was no ones victim. She was under no illusion that her lover Nicky would have to marry a Princess worthy of his future station as Tsar. Sadly for her he only had eyes for Alix after his marriage. A wonderful little annecdote in the book when Mathilde was asked, "How does it feel to have not one but two Grand Dukes dancing at your feet?" Her answer, "Whats so surprising about that! I have two feet!" I think it is a wonderful little quote and shows the lady had spunk.
This book relates quite a bit about the Imperial family and also how while in flight Grand Dss Maria Pavlovna refused point blank to be deloused in Turkey. While everyone else had to strip off. She was too grand for that.

 

[Tarlita]

Maria Pavlovna is one of my favourite characters from the Romanov clan. Such a spirited lady and I would dearly love it if someone would find the time to write a book about her. She deserves her own book. She also spent around $1mil per yr in jewels at Cartier after her husband died in 1909. So they say over in the Alexander Palace forums. At any rate she was a living legend for many reasons not just for her jewels.

 

[Marengo]

She is one of my favourites too. I believe she once sent an invitation to an American author (Marc Twain?) with 'something like: 'come to my dinner party and see how real Russians live'. Not a very nice person all the time but a very interesting character indeed. A biography is long overdue IMHO!

 

[AristoCat]

I think that she was right in disliking the fact that the main Imperial family didn't socialize all that much. She would have made an excellent Tsarina with her love of society and fulfilling the social end of being a Grand Duchess. She also successfully survived the REvolution, no small thing at that point for any Romanov.

 

[genegirl99]

I wonder what would have happened if Vladimir and Maria were on the throne? Could they have kept up with the autocracy? Or would have they gone in the flames of Revolution?

 

[AristoCat]

I think that Marie and Vladimir would have kept things going, since Marie would have more than lived up to her social obligations and public duties while Vladimir would have likely ended up being more cooperative in the idea of a Duma, and when one needed to be established. Neither had any fatalism and neither sincerely believed that God put them there to the exclusion of everything else. Since Marie had a few sons, the succession would have been immediately established and there would have been more of a bond with the Russian people.

I remember reading this time that during WWI Marie was being Alexandra's lady-in-waiting and she suggested that Alexandra make an unscheduled stop to greet a group of soldiers; Alexandra refused, Marie pressed the issue, and then go figure, there was a rift because Marie dared to argue with her (alexandra) and not just accept immediately Alexandra's refusal.

 

[Benjamin]

Eurohistory: Exclusive: Descendants of Grand Duchess Vladimir Gather to Honor Her

 

[Tarlita]

Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna the elder

I have some quotes from the Alexander Palace discussion forums and quotes from Imperial Dancer by Coryne Hall. Hope this is allowed.

AP; It has been discussed many times that When Maria married Vladimir she was spying for Bismark in Prussia. Sasha -Tsar Alexander III - found out and told her off about it. This caused a bit of a rift between the two brothers Vladimir and Alexander. But it didn't last.

The restaurant scandal;
The actor Lucien Guitry was appearing in a play in St Petersburg, and one night at a restaurant Miechen and Vladimir found that he was present and invited Guitry and his entourage to join their gathering. Guitry along with his girlfriend joined the group, and as time went on and things got more and more raucous, a drunken Vladimir made a pass at Guitry’s girlfriend. Guitry then made a pass at Miechen (which I’m sure she did nothing to discourage) and an enraged Vladimir proceeded to threaten to kill Guitry. Naturally, Alex III was in a fearful rage about the whole thing and let it be known that M & V should leave town for France for a bit until things had cooled. [source ap forum]

Flight from Russia; from Imperial Dancer
After six interminable weeks the Semiramisa, an Italian liner arrived in port bound for Venice. The Gr Dss Vladimir paid for their fares by using a valuable brooch as security. The Semiramisa entered the Bosphorus on the 12th March and anchored in the quarantine area. The passengers were led to decontamination rooms where they were asked to undress. The Gr Dss refused. Apart from money and jewellery, which they were allowed to keep in a parcel, everything was fumigated including luggage and they were sent to the showers before being allowed back on board the ship. They spent 3 days in Constantinople waiting for visas. Once in Venice the Russian Consul procured a special train for the Grand Duchess on which they all travelled to the South of France. Andrei accompanied his mother to Cannes, the others went to Cap d’Ail where Andrei joined them later.

Rescueing her jewels;
Her jewel collection was safely locked
in a hidden safe in the palace and remained undiscovered
despite repeated searches by the Bolsheviks. Shortly
thereafter along with Bertie Stopford (the British SIS agent)
the 17 yr old Grand Duke Georgi (son of KR and Mavra)and his cousin Boris son of the grand duchess recovered the jewels from the palace. The jewels then found there way to Cartier in Paris in a diplomatic pouch. [how true the -dip pouch- is I don’t know.] Cartier has archival photographs of all of the Grand Duchess’s jewels taken in 1920. [edited from magazin de Russia]
Grand Duke Boris had to go on this dangerous mission back to St Petersburg as he knew the palace intimately having grown up there. He would have known the best way of sneaking in. Grand Duke Georgi possibly acted as a look out, and Bertie Stopford probably knew how to bribe their way in and out of the country. With revolutionaries and Bolshevik’s on the look out for any of the Imperial family, it was certainly a dangerous undertaking. No doubt the Grand Duchess spent an anxious time of it waiting for their safe return.

Meichens death; from Imperial Dancer
In 1920, Boris, Kyril, Andrei and Elena had all arrived at the Hotel La Souveraine in Contrexeville to find their mother desperately ill. By now, Miechen was in great pain. She finally lost consciousness and died on the 6th September. Her jewels were now divided among her children, Boris her favourite - received her magnificent emeralds; Kyril the pearls; Andrei the rubies and Elena the diamonds. Boris sold some of his mother’s magnificent emeralds to Cartier in Paris in 1927, and Barbara Hutton ended up buying some pieces also John D. Rockefeller bought the 107 carat emerald brooch in 1954 from Cartier.

 

[AristoCat]

Grand Duke Boris had to go on this dangerous mission back to St Petersburg as he knew the palace intimately having grown up there. He would have known the best way of sneaking in. Grand Duke Georgi possibly acted as a look out, and Bertie Stopford probably knew how to bribe their way in and out of the country. With revolutionaries and Bolshevik’s on the look out for any of the Imperial family, it was certainly a dangerous undertaking. No doubt the Grand Duchess spent an anxious time of it waiting for their safe return.
a

Marie must have been one HECK of a great mother if her son was so willing to stick his neck out like that.

 

[Tarlita]

Possibly it was more of a case of getting out there portable wealth, which as it turned out the family had to live off in the coming years. Miechen sold/exchanged a valuable diamond brooch in return for passage on a boat during their flight from the Crimea.
I find it amazing that the Bolsheviks searched her palace many times looking for her jewel vault and never found it. Whereas the Yussopov family vault was found eventually after torturing a servant. In the 1920s the Soviets pulled apart all those gorgeous pieces belonging to Princess Zenaide Yussopov. Her son Felix got out the Marie Antoinette diamond earrings of 35 cts each and they are now at the Smithsonian. Among other things such as paintings.
Miechens lovely pearl tiara was inherited by her daughter Helen/Ellen and Queen Mary bought it from her and QEII wears it often now sometimes with emeralds instead of pearls.
Marina Duchess of Kent is seen wearing a very large bow brooch that was MPs and her children sold it to pay death duties. In my opinion an archaic tax that my country abolished many many years ago.

 

[Benjamin]

Eurohistory: A Video of the Maria Pavlovna Exhibition at Contrexeville, France

 

[Storylover]

Russo, my speculation is that Andrei married her both because he loved her, and because of her wherewithal. Andrei accepted and claimed paternity for Vladimir (Vovo), but from bits here and there, he doesn't seem to have been the bounder that his brother Boris was. (On the side, I find it interesting that Wiki calls Kschessinskaya's son "Vladimir Sergeyevitch", giving him the patronymic that suggests that Sergei Mikhailovich was the father, rather than "Andreyevich" since Andrei did claim paternity. Wonder where they got that from?)

By the by, Andrei was also one of the few Romanovs who recognized Anna Anderson as Anastasia. I hate to admit it in this august forum, but I still have plenty of questions about the outcome of that one!

I read long ago Kschesinskaya's memoirs where she says it was Andrei's son and Sergei was fully aware of that but he loved her so much that wanted her son to be called after him...

 

[theresa_225]

Duchess Alexandrine "Addy" of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (daughter of Princess Marianne) tried to broke up the engagement. She begged Vladimir to broke of the engagement because Marie was in love with someone else so she could not marry him. He then broke it and Marie took the blow seriously.

The Mecklenburgs knew absolutely nothing about it and all parties figure out it was Alexandrine. Emperor William I gave her a piece of his mind but Alexandrine was not impress by it and play it cool.

In my opinion, Marie would have made a good Princess of Schwarzburg

I would also like to know about her relationship with her step siblings. Some people said they had a bad relationship. I tried looking it myself but found nothing . Can someone please help?

 

[royalcolor]

images

Hi,


It would be great to find some photographs of the Grand Duchess Maria Palovna 'Miechen' with copyright & source information. Does anyone know a good source for the images?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

How did Marie Pavlovna get the name of Miechen?
​

When the Duchess of Marlborough, Consuelo (Vanderbilt) Spencer-Churchill, visited St. Petersburg in 1902, after dinner the Grand Duchess Vladimir showed Consuelo her jewels set out in glass cases in her dressing room.
Consuelo was impressed with the parures of diamonds, emeralds, rubies, and pearls.
​