Marie Pavlovna "The Elder" (Grand Duchess Vladimir) (1854-1920)

[Marengo]

It isn't in Romanov Autumn. I just checked. It talks about how hurt Marie was when Ella decided to convert.
Lexi

A bit late, but I finally found it in Romanov autumn. In the chapter ' A House Devided' it is said that Miechen converted in 1908, mainly out of ambition for her sons future. I do not know where Zeepvat gets the information from though, as she does not use footnotes.

 

[Cumberland]

That is intereting, one would have thought she would have converted long before. I believe there was some tension or dislike if you call it from the Dowager Empress, and there was a story about the Marinsky Theatre, which I believe was not the first time Marie Pavlovna found herself at adds with the ruler, his consort or his Mother.

 

[JPhinala]

That is intereting, one would have thought she would have converted long before. I believe there was some tension or dislike if you call it from the Dowager Empress, and there was a story about the Marinsky Theatre, which I believe was not the first time Marie Pavlovna found herself at adds with the ruler, his consort or his Mother.

Ah. The Mariinsky Theater story is one of my favorites. For those of you who don't know it, I'll paraphrase it here.

The Dowager Empress used to have two tables set up with refreshments and invited the most prestigious people in the theater to dine with her. Sometimes the Empress Marie would go to reserve the space and the Grand Duchess would have already reserved it. As retaliation the Empress booked it the same evening as the Grand Duchess and the Grand Duchess, utterly embaressed in front of her guests, was forced to give up her table. The Grand Duchess, to her credit, bowed out and never tried to rival the Empress at the Mariinsky again.

 

[Grace Angel]

I think it's interesting how so many of the Russian people at the court etc considered Alexandra Feodorovna the wife of the last Tsar a snob, when she was just shy. But Marie Pavlovna and Elena were the real thing.

 

[Marengo]

I suppose if you are an HIRH it isn't called snobism though, as it stands for sans nobilité, something both women can not be accused of .

 

[branchg]

Who got the money from the sale?

Grand Duke Boris. Marie Pavlovna died in Switzerland after escaping Russia in 1920.

 

[snowflower]

I believe that Marie Pavlova and Marie Feodorovna didn't really have a bad relationship, in the sence that they didn't detest each other. To me , they seems to be more social rivals and to be competing for the first place in St. Petersburg's society. Who Marie Pavlova really detested was Alix, because she felt that she couldn't live up to the Romanov's expectations. She often commented about her absence from society: " One needs to know how to do his job". And we must admitt that she was probably ideal on that. That's how she earned her title " the Grandest of the Grand Duchesses"

 

[Russophile]

Though because of her grandness and the spoiling of Elena, they had a bit of a difficult time finding her a husband.
Though I must say I would have love to have met her. Can you imagine?? The cuts would be deep, the slights done with flair, the magnanimous gestures truely head spinning!

 

[snowflower]

Well, Elena prospects of marrigae was a bitter, bitter subject. She was first engaged to Max of Baden but the engagement was borken off and Marie felt so angry and humiliated. Then she pulled her pieces together and decided taht she should try for Albert of Belgium. She insisted that the Imperial couple should invite him for a state visit and made her daughter write a letter to Alix, imploring her to invite him and stating that " her whole future depended on that" But then , the invitation never came and Albert announced his engagement to Elisabeth of Bavaria.... Marie Pavlova even said that Nicholas deliberately didn't help in order to destroy Elena's futrure. Then she decided that maybe a rich Thurn und Taxis prince would be ok enough. But since she managed nothing and after turning down Nicholas of Greece's proposals for two years , she finally let them marry. And the irony is that he was by far the better match any of her children made after all

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

I believe that Marie Pavlova and Marie Feodorovna didn't really have a bad relationship, in the sence that they didn't detest each other. To me , they seems to be more social rivals and to be competing for the first place in St. Petersburg's society. Who Marie Pavlova really detested was Alix, because she felt that she couldn't live up to the Romanov's expectations. She often commented about her absence from society: " One needs to know how to do his job". And we must admitt that she was probably ideal on that. That's how she earned her title " the Grandest of the Grand Duchesses"

Were not Vladimir and Michen instrumental in getting Alix to accept Nicky?? In Caterine Clay's King, Kaiser, Tsar", Nicholas writes that he and Alix had "their talk" after her return from a visit with Aunt Michen...

 

[Russophile]

Were not Vladimir and Michen instrumental in getting Alix to accept Nicky?? In Caterine Clay's King, Kaiser, Tsar", Nicholas writes that he and Alix had "their talk" after her return from a visit with Aunt Michen...

That would be interesting because didn't Michen NOT convert from Luthernism until later? After Nicky and Alix were married??

 

[EmpressRouge]

Were not Vladimir and Michen instrumental in getting Alix to accept Nicky?? In Caterine Clay's King, Kaiser, Tsar", Nicholas writes that he and Alix had "their talk" after her return from a visit with Aunt Michen...

I've always read that it was Ella (and Wilhelm for dynastic reasons wanted a German relative on the Russian throne) who convinced Alix to convert, being her sister and having gone through the exact same thing (only Ella was not required to convert and only did so after the marriage).

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

I've always read that it was Ella (and Wilhelm for dynastic reasons wanted a German relative on the Russian throne) who convinced Alix to convert, being her sister and having gone through the exact same thing (only Ella was not required to convert and only did so after the marriage).

As I had always heard as well.... but in Clay's book, page 162:

"A wonderful, unforgettable day in my life - the day of my betrothal to my dear, beloved Alix. She came to Aunt Michen after 10 o'clock and after they had a talk, she and I had our discussion. God, what a mountain has fallen from my shoulders....Wilhelm sat in the next room with the uncles and aunts and waited the outcome of our talk" Nicholas wrote on 20 Apr 1894...

It sounds like Alix went to Aunt Michen with the specific purpose to chat about the religion question (and it seems odd to me seeing that neither she nor Ella converted until much later after their marriage)

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Nicholas' diary entry lacks specifics on the conversation between Michen and Alix. Perhaps the two women merely chatted or perhaps Alix questioned Michen about life in the Russia and how her marriage was affected by her religious beliefs.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Nicholas' diary entry lacks specifics on the conversation between Michen and Alix. Perhaps the two women merely chatted or perhaps Alix questioned Michen about life in the Russia and how her marriage was affected by her religious beliefs.

This is true.... from the way it reads, this was the topic. As neither of know of will ever know... I guess we have to assume, as you said, it could have been about anything from religion to what was for dinner.... that's the great thing about the unknowns of history... we came interpret it or make it conform to anything. Correct?

 

[Martha]

I read that Grand Duchess Vladimir was a difficult woman. She wanted special treatment.

 

[Russophile]

It sounds like Alix went to Aunt Michen with the specific purpose to chat about the religion question (and it seems odd to me seeing that neither she nor Ella converted until much later after their marriage)

According to Christopher Warwick (Ella: Pincess, Saint, & Martyr) Ella converted at her marriage to Grand Duke Serge which distressed her father terribly.
Though that is an interesting point, CL, that Alix went specifically to Michen for something. I wish I was a fly on the wall at that meeting. . .

 

[EmpressRouge]

So we all know about what a formidable woman, but I don't know anything about Grand Duke Vladimir's character. What was he like? Marie broke off a previous engagement to marry him. Must have been an interesting character himself married to such a woman.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

According to Christopher Warwick (Ella: Pincess, Saint, & Martyr) Ella converted at her marriage to Grand Duke Serge which distressed her father terribly.
Though that is an interesting point, CL, that Alix went specifically to Michen for something. I wish I was a fly on the wall at that meeting. . .

ME TOO, Russo - that would have been worth all the gold in the Imperial coffers!
Just to know what Alix and Aunt Michen talked about

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

So we all know about what a formidable woman, but I don't know anything about Grand Duke Vladimir's character. What was he like? Marie broke off a previous engagement to marry him. Must have been an interesting character himself married to such a woman.

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!

 

[EmpressRouge]

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!

Not sure who it was, but that's what Wikipedia says and no one has corrected it or have I heard the fact dispelled.

 

[Russophile]

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!

I checked Wiki, but it didn't say who it was. Darn it! Inquirig minds wanna know!!

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Now I am intrigued!!!

 

[maria-olivia]

Was Grand Duchess MP the elder happy with her only daughter Helena 's wedding with a greek minor Prince ?

 

[snowflower]

I've always read that it was Ella (and Wilhelm for dynastic reasons wanted a German relative on the Russian throne) who convinced Alix to convert, being her sister and having gone through the exact same thing (only Ella was not required to convert and only did so after the marriage).

I don't know if Marie tried to convine Alix to convert but she did support greatly the match between Alix and Nicky, for various reasons . She hoped that she would be able to influence Alix if she supported her and guided her and, if there was a wedding, she would also manage to make her nephew very very happy and her sister in law very very miserable with one single blow . But of course her plans didn't work out the way she hoped because, although Alix did marry Nicholas, she was never very fond of Marie and she was very negative ( to the point of rudeness) whenever Marie tried to offer her some " usefull advice".

Here is is a remarkable incident that occured once when Marie Pavlova was vacationing alone in Livadia (From " At the Court of the last Tsar" ):


"Next day we visited the hospitals at Yalta and within the precincts of Livadia, a domain which the Tsar had presented to his wife; then we went on to Gourzouf, a spot visited by all who came to the Crimea.
As we got into the cars the Grand Duchess, to my astonishment, asked her maid of honour, Mlle Oliv, to go in the second car, and made a sign to me to sit by her side, a thing quite against the rules of Court etiquette.
We had scarcely passed through the gates of Livadia when she took a telegram out of her bag and passed it to me with a hand that trembled. The telegram was in English:

'Am astonished that you should be at Livadia without having asked the lady of the house. As for my hospitals, I know that they are in good order. Alexandra.'
​

'What impertinence!' she said to me, flushed with anger. 'Anyhow, here is the answer I am sending.'
I read an endless message. Heavens! there was no mincing of words in it.
'I hope your Highness has not yet sent off this telegram?
'No,' she answered, 'I wanted to see what you think.'
We discussed the draft, word by word, throughout the journey. I heaved a great sigh of relief when at last the Grand Duchess said to me: 'You are right -I will leave it unanswered. It would be beneath my dignity, at my age, to take any notice of a piece of tactlessness on the part of a woman, and a princess at that, who had to come to me to learn how to behave in society-' And so on, until the moment of our arrival at Gourzouf."

 

[Russophile]

Now I am intrigued!!!

Sorry CL! More bad news: Russo has "A Fatal Passion" about Ducky by Michael John Sullivan and a cursory look in there on Miechen's personality does not mention the aforesaid suitor. But! Don't give up!! We shall be VICTORIOUS!! HA HA!

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

You are gem, Russo! Surely someone had to write it down somewhere!
Thanks for checking

 

[EmpressRouge]

So I got my hands on a copy of Greg King's The Court of the Last Tsar, and it confirms, like King, Kaiser, Tsar, that Miechen "conspired" with Alix's siblings Ernie and Ella, and Kaiser Wilhelm to help Nicky's cause to win Alix's hand. Nothing in the book about Miechen having a previous fiance, but Alexander II arranged the marriage in an attempt to curb Vladimir's debauchery and wild habits. Miechen was a shy, unsophisticated young woman (much like Alix) before she married but transformed herself upon coming to St. Petersburg. Vladimir, ambitious as his wife, hated that he could not be Tsar because of birth order, and saw himself much more sophisticated and qualified to be Tsar than the boorish Alexander III. After the horrific train accident involving Alexander III's family in 1888, the Vladimirs were disappointed that the entire family was alive and they would not have another chance to gain the throne for themselves. Vladimir's waywardness did not curb after his marriage, and there was a drunken brawl at a French restaurant where the prefect of the St. Petersburg police had to be called and "on learning of the incident, Alexander III ordered the Vladimirs into a six-month French exile."

I don't know if Marie tried to convine Alix to convert but she did support greatly the match between Alix and Nicky, for various reasons . She hoped that she would be able to influence Alix if she supported her and guided her and, if there was a wedding, she would also manage to make her nephew very very happy and her sister in law very very miserable with one single blow . But of course her plans didn't work out the way she hoped because, although Alix did marry Nicholas, she was never very fond of Marie and she was very negative ( to the point of rudeness) whenever Marie tried to offer her some " usefull advice".

Alexander III and Minnie disapproved of the Vladimirs' hedonistic ways, but Minnie also did not like Miechen as part of the former's hatred of all things German. Like Snowflower said, pro-German Miechen saw Alix as her pawn to cut down Minnie's position. However, Alix did not blossom like she did and "took offense" when her guidance failed. Miechen never criticized Minnie in public because the dowger Empress was too popular, so all of her insults were directed at Alix. It didn't help matters when Nicky banned and stripped Miechen's son Cyril of his title, income and privileges, when Cyril married Ducky without permission. The Vladimirs blamed Nicky's extreme actions on Alix trying to get revenge on her ex-sister-in-law.

 

[Russophile]

So you enjoyed the book? If so, I'll tell Greg. I haven't read that one yet.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

After the horrific train accident involving Alexander III's family in 1888, the Vladimirs were disappointed that the entire family was alive and they would not have another chance to gain the throne for themselves. Vladimir's waywardness did not curb after his marriage, and there a drunken brawl at a French restaurant where the prefect of the St. Petersburg police had to be called and "on learning of the incident, Alexander III ordered the Vladimirs into a six-month French exile."

It was said the Michen, after the accident, was hear to say "We shall never have such a chance again..." referring to the almost-death of Alexander III and his family.