Marie Pavlovna "The Elder" (Grand Duchess Vladimir) (1854-1920)

[Jackswife]

I wonder if anyone here has anything about Marie, or "Miechen", the wife of Grand Duke Vladimir. I know she was German, from Mecklenburg-Schwerin, and also that she had some really fabulous jewels. I'm especially interested in what, if any, political role she played in the lives of Nicholas and Alexandra. Any info is appreciated.

[Sean.~]

You question is rather broad. What exactly is it that you want to know? She was very ambitious for her family (ie her sons) and didn't hold Alexandra Feodrovona in any high regard. In fact, she went around stating that the Empress needed to anhilated.

[Jackswife]

I don't really know that much about her, although I have heard that she detested Alexandra. I've also heard that Vladimir himself was quite "stupid" and that Miechen was by far the dominant character in the marriage. I was hoping there might be some biographical material on her somewhere, but so far, all I can find is birthdate, place of birth, date of death. I have Leslie Field's book on HM Elizabeth' s jewels, and she's mentioned in there, but nothing comprehensive.

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Jackswife@Mar 1st, 2004 - 1:14 pm
I don't really know that much about her, although I have heard that she detested Alexandra. I've also heard that Vladimir himself was quite "stupid" and that Miechen was by far the dominant character in the marriage. I was hoping there might be some biographical material on her somewhere, but so far, all I can find is birthdate, place of birth, date of death. I have Leslie Field's book on HM Elizabeth' s jewels, and she's mentioned in there, but nothing comprehensive.

I'm having a lot of trouble posting on the board! This is my 3rd attempt, so hopefully it works

In any case, she was by far one of the more interesting Romanovs. I would *highly* recommend the following:

Romanov Autumn - Storeis from the Last Century of Imperial Russia by Charlotte Zeepvat c. 2000 (there are chapters devouted to her in this book);

The Flight of the Romanovs, A family Saga by John Curtis Perry and Constantine Pleshkov c. 1999 and;

A Lifelong Passion, Nicholas and Alexandra - Their Own Story (their diaries) Andrie Maylunas and Sergei Mironenko eds. 1997.

All of the above should be available via Amazon.

Also see Bob Atchinson's Alexander Palace website at:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/mainpage.htm

Be sure to check out the letters section, particularly those of the Grand Dukes, as IIRC there is lots of Maria Pavlovna stuff in them.

Hope this helps.

Sean

[Jackswife]

Thanks so much, Sean-I'll be keeping busy with these! I have a couple of books on Nicholas and Alexandra but Miechen is only mentioned in passing in them. Thanks!

[Sean.~]

Originally posted by Jackswife@Mar 1st, 2004 - 4:14 pm
Thanks so much, Sean-I'll be keeping busy with these! I have a couple of books on Nicholas and Alexandra but Miechen is only mentioned in passing in them. Thanks!

You're very welcome.

You should note, owever, that these are more 'serious' books, particularly the 2nd one. It concentrates more on the substantive political issues (and the roles of the various Grand Dukes etc.) as opposed to who wore what and what kind of tiara they owned. I'm not sure if you're looking to get academic. In any case, I would really recommend A Romanov Autumn if you want something that is realtively informative and well written, while not being too heavy.

Grand Duke Alexander Mihailovich, 1st cousin of Alexander III and brother-in-law of Nicholas II also wrote a very good (serious) book titled Once a Grand Duke (the sequal is titled "Always a Grand Duke"). Depending on where you are you may be able to get it from the main branch of your library. His cousin Maria Pavlovna also wrote a book titled the Education of a Princess. Both are very good.

[victoria_89]

is there any pictures of her ? I remember reading about her in this book about the Grand duchess Elizabeth and how Elizabeth felt ugly compared to her daughter i believe is named either helen or elizabeth ? I always wanted to know if she was more attractive than elizabeth , but ive never found a picture.

[Marengo]

I havent found a picture, but Grand Duchess Helen Vladimirova was better known as Princess Nicholas of Greece & Denmark, mother 2 of the most glamourous princesses of Europe: Marina of Kent and Olga of Yougoslavia.

[Marengo]

btw, Maria's so Kyrill also wrote his memoirs, I have them somewhere but didn t read them yet. Its called 'My Life in Russia's Service, Then and Now'.

[Leslie2006]

Maria Pavlovna, Sr. -- Miechen.

Born: 14 May 1854 as Marie Alexandrine Elisabeth Eleonore. Daughter of Freiderich Franz II of Mecklenburg-Shwerin and his wife, Augusta Reuss-Köstritz.

On August 28, 1874, Marie married HIH the Grand Duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich of Russia, third son of TIM Tsar Aleksandr II and Tsaritsa Maria Aleksandrovna. Together, they had 4 sons: Aleksandr, Boris, Kyrill and Andrei and one daughter, Elena.

Aleksandr, I don't know what happenend to him.

Boris married a commoner I believe and Andrei married Nicholas II's former misteress, Ballerina Mathilde Kschessinska and had one son, Vladimir.

Kyrill married his first cousin, Princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh, was by then had divorced her first husband (and paternal first cousin), Grand Duke Ernst-Ludwig of Hesse. (they had a daughter Elizabeth, born in 1895, but she died of illness in 1903. Ernie and "Ducky" divorced in 1901.) Victoria Melita and Kyrill had three children: Marie, Kyra and Vladimir. It is Vladimir's descendants that now claim rights to the Imperial Russian throne; His only daughter Maria and her son Grigory Mikhailovich.

Miechen's only daughter Elena, married HRH Prince Nicholas of Greece & Denmark. They had three daughters: Olga, Elizabeth and Marina.

Olga married Prince Paul of Yugoslavia in October of 1923. Olga and Paul (called "Pacey"), had three children: Alexander, Nikolai and Elizabeth.

Elizabeth married Count Karl Theodore zu Torreing-Jettenbach. They had two children: Hans born in 1935 and Helene born in 1937.

Princess Marina married HRH George, Duke of Kent in 1934. Their three children (all still living), are Edward, Alexandra and Michael. Edward, I believe, is the current Duke of Kent.

Information can be found at: http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?...ncess%20Marina

Miechen didn't approve of people that weren't "royal" in her mind. She didn't get along with Empress Aleksandra (Alix of Hesse), and was disgusted with Andrei's marriage to MK. Her daughter, Grand Duchess Elena, was alot like her. They thought the same way about people. For example, both Elena and Miechen thought of Nicholas' (Elena's husband) sister-in-law, Princess Alice, was "below" them because she had been born a Serene Highness. Exp: HSH Princess Alice von Battenburg, daughter of Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven and Prince Louis von Battenburg.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

I would love to find some pictures of her - she is a very unique person to me...
For her great concern about rank and precedence... was she BORN to all that of a high ranking family - paternally and maternally??

But fascinating she is none the less - in both her strong-willed dynastic ambitions and her fabulous collection of jewels!
And being the grandmother of Europe's most beautiful princess, Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

The other pictures arent posting...
here is the site I found them...
they may be copy-righted..
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...l%3Den%26lr%3D

[Jackswife]

"Miechen" was of the House of Mecklenburg-Schwerin in Germany, a fairly minor house royalty-wise. She was *definitely* a strong-willed and forceful personality, a big contrast to Tsarina Alexandra. She had quite a fabulous jewel collection (some of which is QEII's today), and yes, she was pretty much of a stickler when it came to suitable romances among her children. I think history would have turned out far differently if she and Vladimir had been on the throne, insated of Nicholas and Alexandra.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Thanks!!
I think, as you do, that thing would have been different had those two been on the throne.
Do you think her "distaste" for Alexandra was more due to her "proper" ways or the fact that Alexandra and Grand Duchess Victoria Melita (Miechen's daughter-in-law and Alix's first cousin) were at odds over all kinds of things....
or just due to the fact that Miechen wanted her family on the throne...?
Someone needs to write a book on the Vladimirs!!

[Jebster]

Grand Duchess Vladimir was certainly one of the most fascinating of the Romanovs. I have been in Russia several times but went this July on a Princess cruise in the Baltic and saw two sites particularly connected with her for the first time--the Vladimir Palace in St.Petersburg and the city and schloss in Mecklenburg-Schwerin. You probably know that her niece (brother's daughter) who was old enough to remember her, died only recently--Queen Juliana of the Netherlands.

[Jackswife]

Yes, Juliana would have perhaps had memories of Marie. An amazing link with history there. I think Miechen disliked Alexandra because she thought Alix was too shy, too awkward, poorly dressed, too English in her ways (Miechen was a confirmed Francophone and detested most things British) to be a good Tsarina. I whole-heartedly agree that there needs to be a big fat juicy book on the Vladimirs!

[CarolinaLandgrave]

How cool, y'all. I didnt realize that Queen Juliana of the Netherlands was her niece!! How very intereting.....
And I didnt know that Miechen was such a Francophone..... totally explains a great deal more of her dislike for the Empress Alexandra - who was about as "English" as the Thames! I guess from being raised (for the most part) under Queen Victoria's wing after Grand Duchess Alice died.
Can we count on you, Jackswife, to write the book on the Vladimirs??

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Found a cool site for Marie's genealogy.....
http://www.thepeerage.com/p10081.htm

She was a great-great granddaughter of Czar Paul I, as well as a great granddaughter of Frederick William III of Prussia. Also she is a descendant of King George I of England!

[geli]

Maria Pavlovna " the Elder " wearing hunting costume


Grand Duchess Wladimir in fabulous jewels


Maria Pavlovna with her daughter Helena,
spouse of Prince Nicolas of Greece

[CarolinaLandgrave]

THANKS!!!
I love that picture of Miechen and Helena.........
made my day to see that one!!!