Languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra and Family

[Anna was Franziska]

Let me see if I have all of this right.

AWF claims Maria and Anastasia never had German lessons

AWF admits that Olga and Tatiana did have German lessons.

AWF? No, Sophie B. Among many other posts in this thread you have chosen to ignore, that one was a quote from Sophie B. in her book

"The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna" and it states that Maria, Anastasia and Alexei had NO knowledge of German. They did NOT study German.

Yeah this book!

To what degree each read or spoke German by July of 1918 is unknown by those who were not present.

Then why not listen to those who were? We have given you many quotes.

AWF's, again, assumes: >>The people who claim to hear Alix speak in German were the people who didn't know any English, only Russian that's why they accused her of speaking German to her daughters during WWI.<<

Did you read the quote I posted by Lili Dehn, saying exactly this happened when they worked at the hospital? Soldiers heard her speaking English to her daughters and ladies in waiting and broadcast around that they were 'speaking German.'

The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

Alexandra Feodorovna and Romanov Russia, The Real Tsaritsa witten by Lili Dehn - Part One - Old Russia - Chapter VI

I believe that is all Chat is posting.



Seems simple enough to me.

AGRBear

I don't believe that is all he's getting at, or you. If either of you cared about languages other than OTMA and German, you'd discuss other topics, such as the ones I've posted about the Tsar. But no, it's always about did the girls know German, and yes, that ties directly to AA, deny it or not.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Bear, these are NOT my claims. These are FACTS. I already told you where I got all the resources from. You continue to ignore my information and say that it is what I assume and a claim. Those are facts, NOT opinions and I backed them up.

 

[Kalafrana]

French was indeed a language of the court as much as Russian, but that does not mean that nobody at court would bother to learn German.

That German was a normal part of upper class Russian education does not mean that the imperial children learned it, but it would make it more surprising if they didn't. In any case, Tian provides a letter from Tatiana to her friend Gretchen (just out of interest, who was Gretchen exactly?) dated 1st January 1909 and so written when Tatiana was 11, in what looks to me like fairly basic but still perfectly decent German.

Lili Dehn, Pierre Gillard and Anna Vyrubova, writing in the early 1920s (apologies, I assumed their books were a few years later in date) would be concerned to show that Alexandra in particular had not been pro-German during the recent war, and so my point about playing down any 'German-ness' remains valid. As it happens I wrote an academic article some years ago on the deprivation of the British titles of the Dukes of Coburg, Cumberland and Brunswick. Someone found for me an article published in Germany in 1922 which sets out to demonstrate that the Duke of Coburg, born Charles Edward, Duke of Albany (he was the posthumous son of Queen Victoria's haemophiliac son Leopold) was a thoroughly loyal German throughout WW1. Coburg was, of course, a first cousin of Alexandra, and reading this piece, which someone translated for me, one can wonder whether the author doth in fact protest a little too much. According to Coburg's sister, Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, he told her as the war was breaking out that he would have much preferred to have joined the British army, and presumably the truth was that he served in the German army against his native country somewhat reluctantly and because it was unavoidable.

Of course, the point Olga Alexandrovna was making was that someone who spoke only German could not possibly be her niece. She says that German was never 'used' within the family circle, instead Russian and English, so she would expect a genuine Anastasia, a miraculous survivor of Ekaterinburg, to speak to her in one or the other, or possibly both. This is not inconsistent with Anastasia (the real Anastasia, who was murdered at Ekaterinburg with the rest), to have had lessons in German (and made little progress with it).

 

[Kalafrana]

Anna Anderson has been conclusively proved a fraud from two different directions (her own DNA plus the recent discoveries near Ekaterinburg). What I find interesting about her is that quite a number of people who knew the real Anastasia (such as Lili Dehn and Sigismund of Prussia) were prepared to believe that she was genuine.

That Peter Kurth was making use of the German exercise books to support his view that Anna Anderson was Anastasia does not mean that the exercise books themselves were not genuine (has it ever been suggested that they were fakes?) That the real Anastasia did have German lessons does not support Anna Anderson's claims, which are now entirely discredited.

 

[tian]

In any case, Tian provides a letter from Tatiana to her friend Gretchen (just out of interest, who was Gretchen exactly?) dated 1st January 1909 and so written when Tatiana was 11, in what looks to me like fairly basic but still perfectly decent German.

Gretchen was Alexandra's friend from Darmstadt. They corresponded regurarly up until the war.

On the Alexander Palace web site there are Maria's expenses from year 1910. She had 18 monthly German lessons that year by mr Kleikenburg.
Expenses of Grand Duchess Maria - Alexander Palace Time Machine

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Lili Dehn, Pierre Gillard and Anna Vyrubova, writing in the early 1920s (apologies, I assumed their books were a few years later in date) would be concerned to show that Alexandra in particular had not been pro-German during the recent war, and so my point about playing down any 'German-ness' remains valid.

All languages aside, yes her friends did try to clear her name, and felt it their duty to do so since she was not around to do it for herself. It bothered them she was going to be remembered as a "German spy" or a 'mistress of Rasputin' or even worse 'gave her daughters to Rasputin.'

As it happens I wrote an academic article some years ago on the deprivation of the British titles of the Dukes of Coburg, Cumberland and Brunswick. Someone found for me an article published in Germany in 1922 which sets out to demonstrate that the Duke of Coburg, born Charles Edward, Duke of Albany (he was the posthumous son of Queen Victoria's haemophiliac son Leopold) was a thoroughly loyal German throughout WW1. Coburg was, of course, a first cousin of Alexandra, and reading this piece, which someone translated for me, one can wonder whether the author doth in fact protest a little too much. According to Coburg's sister, Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, he told her as the war was breaking out that he would have much preferred to have joined the British army, and presumably the truth was that he served in the German army against his native country somewhat reluctantly and because it was unavoidable.

Thanks, that's interesting. It was even worse to have been accused of being pro German during WWII or the Nazi era, and what a shame severall of Wilhelm's sons were.

Of course, the point Olga Alexandrovna was making was that someone who spoke only German could not possibly be her niece. She says that German was never 'used' within the family circle, instead Russian and English, so she would expect a genuine Anastasia, a miraculous survivor of Ekaterinburg, to speak to her in one or the other, or possibly both. This is not inconsistent with Anastasia (the real Anastasia, who was murdered at Ekaterinburg with the rest), to have had lessons in German (and made little progress with it).

I agree, but unfortunately the strong supporters of AA have and still do seem to exaggerate AN's German ability or try to latch onto any minuscule evidence she was at least exposed to it at all that 'maybe' this meant AA could have been AN, speaking German. But of course all reality suggests that a real AN would have chosen Russian or English, especially to Olga, a native Russian speaker. Sadly, AA supporters also accuse Olga of lying to deny her 'niece.' I was hoping after the final DNA results, this woman's name, and Gilliard, could finally be cleared of being called 'liars' who 'denied her for money', but that is still not happening in some circles. (and most of those defending AN knowing German in this thread are those who constantly defend AA, or some escape by AN, and have for years)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear, these are NOT my claims. These are FACTS. I already told you where I got all the resources from. You continue to ignore my information and say that it is what I assume and a claim. Those are facts, NOT opinions and I backed them up.

That's right, they came from books and were quotes of those who knew the family. She accused me of making those statements too, saying 'AWF claims' but they were from books.I guess bear can't stand it when I use books because she tries to say I don't, so she still has to try to say I made it up, but I didn't. Like you said they are FACTS but those who don't want to believe them ignore them and tell their own story.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

That's right, they came from books and were quotes of those who knew the family. She accused me of making those statements too, saying 'AWF claims' but they were from books.I guess bear can't stand it when I use books because she tries to say I don't, so she still has to try to say I made it up, but I didn't. Like you said they are FACTS but those who don't want to believe them ignore them and tell their own story.

It is very sad how Bear doesn't want to accept what came from actual books. Instead, she insists on believing that it is hearsay. Most of the time Bear makes up her claims instead of referencing them. She rather make up something she wants, instead of going by facts. She quoted my post and says you wrote it. It actually was me who wrote the post, not AWF.

 

[Russophile]

It is very sad how Bear doesn't want to accept what came from actual books. Instead, she insists on believing that it is hearsay. Most of the time Bear makes up her claims instead of referencing them. She rather make up something she wants, instead of going by facts. She quoted my post and says you wrote it. It actually was me who wrote the post, not AWF.

No Bear doesn't. Bear has, on her website insisted on references. We're a little more loose on this forum. But Bear has many, many references at her finger tips that she has cited, yet she has asked, and it puzzles me, why you and AWF insist that nobody spoke German. Nobody says that becuase AA spoke German that AN did. That's beside the point. What is the reasoning behind this vehement denial?

 

[Kalafrana]

Turning now to a less controversial language than German, did Olga Alexandrovna need to learn Danish when she settled in Denmark with her family?

Of course, Olga was 14 years younger than Nicholas, but if she already spoke Danish when she went to Denmark, this would suggest that her older siblings would also have learned Danish from their mother.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

No Bear doesn't. Bear has, on her website insisted on references. We're a little more loose on this forum. But Bear has many, many references at her finger tips that she has cited, yet she has asked, and it puzzles me, why you and AWF insist that nobody spoke German. Nobody says that becuase AA spoke German that AN did. That's beside the point.

Russophile.
Bear was saying the information in my posts were only my claims and personal beliefs. She didn't post resources in her latest post in this thread. However, they were not my own claims, these are facts and resources that came from Pierre Gilliard, Lili Dehn, and Sophie Buxhoeveden. I use resources from only them. She denies that, and tries to say that they are my "claims" after I labled about who and where the resources came from. While I was reading Bear's posts she mentioned AA 's court trial, and it seems she is saying that Anastasia knew German because of AA.

What is the reasoning behind this vehement denial?

Vehement denial! It's the truth that OTMA did not use German. I'm proving something that's not true.I posted evidence from Gilliard and Lili Dehn to prove that they didn't use German. I'm only posting the truth and that's a fact.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Russophile.
Bear was saying the information in my posts were only my claims and personal beliefs. She didn't post resources in her latest post in this thread. However, they were not my own claims, these are facts and resources that came from Pierre Gilliard, Lili Dehn, and Sophie Buxhoeveden. I use resources from only them. She denies that, and tries to say that they are my "claims" after I labled about who and where the resources came from. While I was reading Bear's posts she mentioned AA 's court trial, and it seems she is saying that Anastasia knew German because of AA.

Anastasia Evidence and I have given quotes for everything posted. Go back and check through the thread if you don't believe it. The only time things have been mentioned without their sources is because they've been repeated a second or third time, since they clearly were ignored the first time, but if you look back you'll see every one of the quotes came from a book. Bear just ignores what she doesn't want to see like she ignores the reality that the family is all accounted for now and the mystery is over.

Sorry, but it's hard for me to accept that this 'did AN know German' thing has nothing to do with AA when the main people who keep pressing it is a literal who's who of AA/pro claimant posters with long histories of AA support (Russo, Ferrymans, Chat, Bear)

Vehement denial! It's the truth that OTMA did not use German. I'm proving something that's not true.I posted evidence from Gilliard and Lili Dehn to prove that they didn't use German. I'm only posting the truth and that's a fact.

They did not use German. They were exposed to it but never learned it, never used it, and this is why so many people say they didn't know it at all. Even those who spent a lot of time with the family still report they knew no German, so obviously, even if they had lessons, it was never a factor and never used since many of those around them say they never heard it from the family. This proves that it was not used to any degree that it would have been noticed by anyone around them.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Anastasia Evidence and I have given quotes for everything posted. Go back and check through the thread if you don't believe it. The only time things have been mentioned without their sources is because they've been repeated a second or third time, since they clearly were ignored the first time, but if you look back you'll see every one of the quotes came from a book.

Bear just ignores what she doesn't want to see like she ignores the reality that the family is all accounted for now and the mystery is over.

That's true. Bear knows that the information came out of the books, she just wants to make it not true, by saying that I "claimed it myself". Bear doesn't think the mystery is over she says it's still an mystery. She denies the Romanov bones discovered in 2007.

Sorry, but it's hard for me to accept that this 'did AN know German' thing has nothing to do with AA when the main people who keep pressing it is a literal who's who of AA/pro claimant posters with long histories of AA support (Russo, Ferrymans, Chat, Bear)

It does, if not why do Bear, and Chat continue to mention AA in your posts?

 

[ChatNoir]

Turning now to a less controversial language than German, did Olga Alexandrovna need to learn Danish when she settled in Denmark with her family?

Of course, Olga was 14 years younger than Nicholas, but if she already spoke Danish when she went to Denmark, this would suggest that her older siblings would also have learned Danish from their mother.

I found this snippet in FOTR:

He (Nicholas) had a passion for history; spoke Russian, French, German, Danish and English.

So it would not be unrealistic to assume that his siblings also knew at least some Danish.

 

[ChatNoir]

They did not use German. They were exposed to it but never learned it, never used it, and this is why so many people say they didn't know it at all.

But, if they never used it, why would Gibbes say that they "spoke it badly"? And what about Kobylinski's testimony about Olga, saying that she "spoke German badly"? Surely the girls must have used German at one point or another.
And if you want to use that old argument that "studying a language does not mean that you learn it", I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you. Remember, you are the one insisting on me being a native speaker of English, in spite of me only having had 5 years of lessons in a foreign country.

 

[ChatNoir]

It does, if not why do Bear, and Chat continue to mention AA in your posts?

Pardon me, but if you go back in this thread, you will clearly see that AA was brought into this debate by you and AWF.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Pardon me, but if you go back in this thread, you will clearly see that AA was brought into this debate by you and AWF.

But it's the very fact that you and the other AA supporters endlessly defend the German thing that anyone who knows your history knows the reason behind it, which is AA. You don't even have to mention her name, it's as obvious as J Kendrick and the hemophilia thing, why else does he argue it?

About Olga and Danish, here's a video of her life, maybe there's some info in it about her languages. I've watched it before, and her daughters in law spoke Danish and had to be translated, so probably her sons did too, and likely her, especially after living there for so long.

part 1

GUBA - Olga - The Last Grand Duchess of Russia. (Part 1 of 2)


part 2

GUBA - Olga - The Last Grand Duchess of Russia. (Part 2 of 2)

This is a very good show, but it's about 20-30 minutes long (each) so make sure you have the time to spare before you start.

 

[ChatNoir]

But it's the very fact that you and the other AA supporters endlessly defend the German thing that anyone who knows your history knows the reason behind it, which is AA.

I think that the reason for defending the "German thing", is because all the Grand Duchesses DID learn German, and spoke it, too, if not too well. Why AA has to be implicated, is a mystery to me.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I think that the reason for defending the "German thing", is because all the Grand Duchesses DID learn German, and spoke it, too, if not too well.

They did NOT speak it or use it. other than in lessons. There are many witnesses to this and many who said they never knew it at all because it was such a non factor and never used.

Why AA has to be implicated, is a mystery to me.

 

[ChatNoir]

They did NOT speak it or use it.

Then, again, how could Kobylinski and Gibbes state that they spoke it badly?

 

[tian]

Then, again, how could Kobylinski and Gibbes state that they spoke it badly?

Do you have an English source for these? I've only found quotes in Russian from the web.

 

[ChatNoir]

Do you have an English source for these? I've only found quotes in Russian from the web.

These quotes come from Wilton's book "The last Days of the Romanovs". The book can be read in its entirety on the net. Just look up the title, and yksi, kaksi, kolme, you have the whole thing at your fingertips.

 

[AGRBear]

Here are two examples of Tatiana's German knowledge.

Tatiana's letter to Gretchen von Fabrice in German. (Alix an Gretchen, p. 183)


Tatiana's German grammar book from 1907. (Na Detskoi Polovine, p. 84)

Tian's illustration is excellent because this provides us with an example of what kind of German lessons all of the grand duchesses would have had.

The oldest, Olga, would have had a higher level of course, because she was older, then the lessons would have step down in levels for each of her sisters due to their age and abilities.

Since Alexis had been considered the future Tsar of Russia, Russian and French, which was the international language and not just for the royal courts, were Alexis primary languages.

 

[AGRBear]

AWF: >>Here is a perfect example of this, from Lili Dehn's book:

The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

Alexandra Feodorovna and Romanov Russia, The Real Tsaritsa witten by Lili Dehn - Part One - Old Russia - Chapter VI<<

-------

Bear:

Lili Dehn says that "everyone was suspicious of her" [Alexandra]. Who was everyone? Are we talking about the soldiers? The nurses? The doctors? I think this is too broad of statement for anyone, even Dehn, to make.

"...the soliders declared she was speaking German"

Who knows? Maybe she did speak German to a wounded German-Russians who didn't speak Russian and needed to talk to someone so far from his village. Rumors sometimes start with the truth but can get bent and made ugly. In this case, a good turn may have created this problem for Alexandra and the girls.

Remember, the revolutionaries were painting Alexandra as being a German in all their speeches, literature and by word of mouth. All of this bled into the world of the peasants of which the soldiers in the hospitals were.

When Lili Dehn heard the rumor, she responded in saying:
>>Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly<<

Of course, I don't know for sure that is what happen, however, she does mention that "this report once started was magnified" so, maybe, even when she spoke English thereafter some of the soldiers thought she was speaking German because others said that was what she was speaking.

I've never even suggested that Lili Dehn didn't say what you've told us.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

AWF: >>Here is a perfect example of this, from Lili Dehn's book:

The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

Alexandra Feodorovna and Romanov Russia, The Real Tsaritsa witten by Lili Dehn - Part One - Old Russia - Chapter VI<<

-------

Bear:

Lili Dehn says that "everyone was suspicious of her" [Alexandra]. Who was everyone? Are we talking about the soldiers? The nurses? The doctors? I think this is too broad of statement for anyone, even Dehn, to make.

I don't think she was only talking about the hospital but everyone, the Russian public in general. There were so many rumors going around about her being pro German and a German spy.

"...the soliders declared she was speaking German"

Who knows? Maybe she did speak German to a wounded German-Russians who didn't speak Russian and needed to talk to someone so far from his village. Rumors sometimes start with the truth but can get bent and made ugly. In this case, a good turn may have created this problem for Alexandra and the girls.

Well actually what Lili said was that Alix was speaking English to her daughters and ladies in waiting (Vyrubova and Bux) and the soldiers mistook it for German and spread the story around, believed by others.. Any imagined conversation between Alix and some half German soldier is strictly in Bear's imagination, not in the book written by a lady who was there.

Remember, the revolutionaries were painting Alexandra as being a German in all their speeches, literature and by word of mouth. All of this bled into the world of the peasants of which the soldiers in the hospitals were.

Well of course, this is the point. And this is also why I say that the same thing happened in Ekaterinburg- she was speaking English and some of the soldiers who didn't know the difference assumed it was German, due to the rumors, just like what happened in the hospital, documented by Dehn.

When Lili Dehn heard the rumor, she responded in saying:
>>Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly<<

No Lili didn't hear the rumor first- she was with Alix when it happened, she went to the hospital too! She only added that later a rumor spread due to the soldiers mistaking English for German.

Of course, I don't know for sure that is what happen, however, she does mention that "this report once started was magnified" so, maybe, even when she spoke English thereafter some of the soldiers thought she was speaking German because others said that was what she was speaking.

Bear what are you saying? Are you trying to make up stuff that didn't happen and say 'maybe it happened' when there is no evidence whatsoever, just to hold onto your dream that the family used German more than people said? Why are you doing this? The statement is what it is, no need to add fiction between the lines.

I've never even suggested that Lili Dehn didn't say what you've told us.

AGRBear

But you have just accused Lili's statement as being something other than what it was meant to be, different than what really happened, and attempted to vasty distort its true meaning with your own fantasy version of what it must have 'really' meant.

 

[ChatNoir]

Well of course, this is the point. And this is also why I say that the same thing happened in Ekaterinburg- she was speaking English and some of the soldiers who didn't know the difference assumed it was German, due to the rumors, just like what happened in the hospital, documented by Dehn.

what are you saying? Are you trying to make up stuff that didn't happen and say 'maybe it happened' when there is no evidence whatsoever, just to hold onto your dream that the family used German more than people said? Why are you doing this? The statement is what it is, no need to add fiction between the lines.

But you have just accused Lili's statement as being something other than what it was meant to be, different than what really happened, and attempted to vasty distort its true meaning with your own fantasy version of what it must have 'really' meant

(I think I have let AWF answer her own allegation.)

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Here are two examples of Tatiana's German knowledge.

Tatiana's letter to Gretchen von Fabrice in German. (Alix an Gretchen, p. 183)

This is interesting since it was only 1909 and they had lessons as late as Tobolsk. Tatiana's German here is quite fluent, even if somewhere between basic and intermediary so she has obviously been studying for a little while. Even if they didn't have cause to speak the language much, her written German at least must have been quite good if she kept up the level of lessons for the next few years.

 

[AGRBear]

...[in part]....
Well actually what Lili said was that Alix was speaking English to her daughters and ladies in waiting (Vyrubova and Bux) and the soldiers mistook it for German and spread the story around, believed by others.. Any imagined conversation between Alix and some half German soldier is strictly in Bear's imagination, not in the book written by a lady who was there.
....

How did Dehn know that the rumor started at that moment? As I suggested, this same information, not a rumor, might have been started earlier when Alexandra was speaking German to a German-Russian soldier, who didn't speak Russian very well, and, needed comfort. So, when the soldiers on this particular day (as told to us by Dehn) heard the women speaking English the soldiers took for granted they were speaking German.

Truth is, we just do not know. Sure, we can have theories. My theory may be correct or completely wrong. Who knows for sure?

AGRBear

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Just because something is in a 'court record' does NOT- repeat NOT NOT- necessarily make it a 'fact.' People lie in court all the time. I have been lied on in court. People remember things incorrectly and make human errors. So no, recording what they said in court does not at all make what they said a fact.'

This is about an exhibit which was introduced as evidence (you must have seen such things on Perry Mason) and has nothing to do with anyone lying or not. Unless you are saying that Berenberg Gossler was lying when he accepted in court that the schoolbooks showed that AN studied German? Surely not, since you normally extol the veracity of his statements as if your life depended on them.

Obviously, you don't know what evidence is.

Indeed I do, please see below

Exactly! It's quite said people don't understand the difference between a fact and opinion. Even a second grader can tell the difference between a fact and opinion.

Then why can't you tell the difference? You also seem confused as to what is considered hearsay so here is a link to a legal dictionary. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay Exhibits introduced as evidence are NOT hearsay.

Ferrymansdaughter, ... Show me these so called "German court records" then?

You and AWF are both refusing to accept that the Court Records show that GD Anastasia's schoolbooks were presented in evidence during the trials. You are also refusing to accept that BOTH sides were happy to accept their provenance. You similarly refuse to accept that the books show she studied German. As all of this is in the court records which have to be confirmed by both sets of lawyers and the judges, it is up to you two to PROVE that those records are inaccurate, not for us to prove that they are accurate. Or are you saying that all the lawyers and the various sets of judges were lying?

It has been said that Chat and I only press this point because we are trying to show that AA was AN. (I won't even bother to point out that it is AWF who keeps dragging AA into this debate - or indeed just about every debate.) How about we are pressing it because it is a FACT, regardless of who AA was. In fact her identity could be considered irrelevant. You are trying to twist the facts because they may (and it is only "may", not "do" since as I have said AA's identity actually could be considered of no relevance to this point) contradict your theory. It is like saying night is day or black is white. AE, you can say until you are blue in the face that there is no proof Anastasia had any German lessons but the facts patently contradict you.

I have to say I wonder why you get so het up and fly in the face of the obvious which is actually rather ridiculous. If you are so confident you are right, why can't you say "yes AN did study German but it doesn't mean she and AA were the same person."?

 

[AGRBear]

Source:

...[in part]....
From my Darling Peter Kurth with his permission:
The German workbooks were properly submitted to the second Hamburg tribunal in 1964 and acknolwedged as authentic by both sides in the dispute. They were bought at auction by Ian Lilburn, a friend of Prince Frederick..... He was never reimbursed (nor expected to be) for the cost of the notebooks; neither were they ever returned to him -- the notebooks, presumably, are still among all the records of the trial. A point of interest: Lilburn spent a great deal of money on these items, but not because anyone needed to prove that the tsar's daughters were tutored in German, as they certainly were -- even Gilliard acknowledged and identified the German tutor at court, Herr Kleinenberg, who presumably wasn't hanging around Tsarskoe Selo twiddling his thumbs.....
...

This is interesting since it was only 1909 and they had lessons as late as Tobolsk. Tatiana's German here is quite fluent, even if somewhere between basic and intermediary so she has obviously been studying for a little while. Even if they didn't have cause to speak the language much, her written German at least must have been quite good if she kept up the level of lessons for the next few years.

>> Gilliard acknowledged and identified the German tutor at court, Herr Kleinenberg<<

Here are two examples of Tatiana's German knowledge.

Tatiana's letter to Gretchen von Fabrice in German. (Alix an Gretchen, p. 183)


Tatiana's German grammar book from 1907. (Na Detskoi Polovine, p. 84)

Fact: It is noted in the journal from the Ipatiev House that the Tsarina twice spoke in German to her daughters, and was told by Avdayev that it was forbidden.
Fact: The workbooks of the Grand Duchesses showed that they studied German "in a serious manner".
Fact: Gilliard's time tables, on display at The University of Lausanne, show the Grand Duchesses scheduled for German lessons once a day while in Tobolsk.
Fact: The Empress wrote in her diary: Tonight I helped Tatiana with a German lesson.
But nowhere does it say that they spoke it perfectly.

Let me repeat this part of Chat's post: >>It is noted in the journal from the Ipatiev House that the Tsarina twice spoke in German to her daughters, and was told by Avdayev that it was forbidden.<<

Spoke twice?

Since Alexandra and some of her daughters could speak German, was it possible that they did speak German as reported? Yes. Did they? As often is the case in these last months of the captivity of the royal family, all we have is what the Bolsheviks have told us.

Is it possible someone lied in order to provide evidence that Alexandra was rightly accused of being a German spy? I don't know. Is was possbile.

Is it possible that someone mistook English for German? I don't know. With that said, I think the majority of the Russians living in and near Ekaterinburg knew what German sounded like. According to Baadeker's guide book about Ekaterinburg, he mentions the fact that there was a Lutheran Church near the post office. This means there was a group of German-Russian Lutherans living in and near Ekaterinburg. And, German-Russians always made themselves known whereever they lived in Russsia.

We know that Avdayev, who was born in 1887, was educated and more than likey had business, he was a locksmith, with German-Russians during his life before 1918.

>>...he attended the local grammar and secondary schools, and seem to have been an educated man. At the end of his education he became an apprentice locksmith in Perm.<<. p. 117 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson.

Grammar school is like our American grade school kindergarten through 8th grade. Secondary is like our high schools and could not be attended unless recommended by a person's teachers.

Perm was the capital of the province of the same name. In 1912 it had 61,000, 19 churches which included German-Russian Lutheran and Catholic churches, and had a large collection of products produced by local the "cottage industry" as well as factories.

Some posters seem to think the towns in the eastern part of Russia were filled with backward people who never had any communication with the west accept by some lone travelor on a donkey. The wireless and the railroad brought from the west all the recent news.

>>During World War I he joined the Bolshevik Party, and following the October Revolution became a member of the Ural Regional Soviet. In November 1917 Avdayev got a position at the Zlokazov [p. 118] Brother factory.<<

Do I have any proof Avdayev spoke German? No. Does anyone know if he did?


AGRBear