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  #121  
Old 01-15-2009, 02:53 PM
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The fact that Anastasia learned German was established during the trial of AA in Germany. Ian Lilburn was allowed by AA's lawyers to purchase a lot of schoolbooks written by the imperial children at an auction in London. Among them were found books that showed Anastasia's German lessons along with her Russian ones. The German lessons actually had fewer mistakes than the Russian ones.
All the girls took German lessons, their teacher was Herr Kleinenberg, who stayed with the family up to the revolution. According to Gibbes, Anastasia spoke German rather poorly.
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  #122  
Old 01-15-2009, 03:13 PM
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Chat, you know the only reason you push this German thing is because it was AA's lifelong language of choice, she refused to speak Russian, her English was ghastly and her French nonexistent, while those who knew Anastasia all said she spoke Russian, English and French and barely knew any German, and that the family never used it. Just because a person takes lessons doesn't mean a thing. I know people who took several years of a language in high school and college and can't speak but a few words today. Many facts and eyewitnesses back up the truth, that Anastasia and the other Imperial children knew hardly any German and never used it.
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  #123  
Old 01-15-2009, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Chat, you know the only reason you push this German thing is because it was AA's lifelong language of choice, she refused to speak Russian, her English was ghastly and her French nonexistent, while those who knew Anastasia all said she spoke Russian, English and French and barely knew any German, and that the family never used it. Just because a person takes lessons doesn't mean a thing. I know people who took several years of a language in high school and college and can't speak but a few words today. Many facts and eyewitnesses back up the truth, that Anastasia and the other Imperial children knew hardly any German and never used it.
I have divulged my sources. Now maybe you will do the same.
Thank you.
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  #124  
Old 01-15-2009, 04:19 PM
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Here are some quotes for you for all the good they're going to do:

From the Life and Tragedy of Alexandra
Chapter XVI
They (Grand Duchesses) always spoke Russian among themselves and to the Emperor, English to their mother, and French to M. Gilliard. The elder girls had a smattering of German, but spoke it with difficulty; the younger ones and the Tsarevich did not know it at all.

Olga Alexandrovna, from her Vorres bio:
My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family."

From P. Gilliard`s memoires: Her Majesty talked English with them /the children/, the Tsar Russian only. The Tsarina spoke English or French with the members of her suite. She never spoke in Russian (though she spoke it pretty well ultimately) except to those who knew no other language. During the whole period of my residence with the Imperial family I never heard one of them utter a word of German, except when it was inevitable, as at receptions, etc.


Dmitri Leuchtenberg, from the Vorres book:
Grand Duchess Anastasia, on the contrary, spoke always Russian to her father, English to her mother, understood and spoke French and did not speak any German.
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  #125  
Old 01-15-2009, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Here are some quotes for you for all the good they're going to do:

From the Life and Tragedy of Alexandra
Chapter XVI
They (Grand Duchesses) always spoke Russian among themselves and to the Emperor, English to their mother, and French to M. Gilliard. The elder girls had a smattering of German, but spoke it with difficulty; the younger ones and the Tsarevich did not know it at all.
And as I have already posted: Anastasia's schoolbooks clearly showed that she took serious German lessons.

Quote:
Olga Alexandrovna, from her Vorres bio:
My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family."
I have no doubt that German was not used in the family on a regular basis. But it seems, from the guard's statement, that Alexandra used German in captivity to communicate with her daughters in order not to be understood by the guards.

Quote:
From P. Gilliard`s memoires: Her Majesty talked English with them /the children/, the Tsar Russian only. The Tsarina spoke English or French with the members of her suite. She never spoke in Russian (though she spoke it pretty well ultimately) except to those who knew no other language. During the whole period of my residence with the Imperial family I never heard one of them utter a word of German, except when it was inevitable, as at receptions, etc.
I don't think there is any disagreement about this.

Quote:
Dmitri Leuchtenberg, from the Vorres book:
Grand Duchess Anastasia, on the contrary, spoke always Russian to her father, English to her mother, understood and spoke French and did not speak any German.
Dmitri Leuchtenberg did not ever meet Anastasia, so his statement should not even be included here.
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  #126  
Old 01-15-2009, 04:31 PM
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But it seems, from the guard's statement, that Alexandra used German in captivity to communicate with her daughters in order not to be understood by the guards.
Chat that was almost certainly English and he didn't know the difference. It makes much more sense, since it's well documented mother and children spoke to each other in English. In "File on the Tsar" there is much reference to the guards being upset about the family speaking English, and forbidding them to use it. But as I said, only AA supporters try to push the issue that Anastasia was suddenly a serious German student when there is not one bit of evidence this is true, and a lot against it. Taking a lesson does not = proficiency, this is reality, since most every person I know took some language in school but never learned it. Don't forget too that during WWI all things German so fell out of favor that the name of the city was changed to Petrograd because St. Petersburg was too German sounding. So go on imagining Anastasia was a great German scholar but she wasn't. Sorry but Anastasia did not use German, and never would have chosen it exclusively over English, Russian, and French, especially not when speaking to other native Russian speakers such as Olga A. and Felix Y.
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  #127  
Old 01-15-2009, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Chat that was almost certainly English and he didn't know the difference. It makes much more sense, since it's well documented mother and children spoke to each other in English. In "File on the Tsar" there is much reference to the guards being upset about the family speaking English, and forbidding them to use it.
Really? How did they know the difference from German?

Quote:
Taking a lesson does not = proficiency, this is reality, since most every person I know took some language in school but never learned it.
And I learned English in school. Maybe you go with the wrong people.

Quote:
So go on imagining Anastasia was a great German scholar but she wasn't. Sorry but Anastasia did not use German, and never would have chosen it exclusively over English, Russian, and French, especially not when speaking to other native Russian speakers such as Olga A. and Felix Y.
I don't think anybody has ever said that Anastasia was a great German scholar. According to Gibbes, she spoke it poorly. And her schoolbooks contained several corrections, altough not as many as in her Russian writings.
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  #128  
Old 01-15-2009, 05:01 PM
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Really? How did they know the difference from German?
They didn't know what language it was, but assumed it was German because of all the rumors about Alexandra being a German spy. They didn't know Alexandra, but had heard all the propaganda against her, so naturally when she spoke a language they didn't know, it must be German. It may even have been French, they wouldn't know.
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  #129  
Old 01-15-2009, 05:10 PM
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All I have done, is to quote Russian soldiers stating that Alexandra spoke German to her daughters, and that the family was overheard speaking English together. Why is this so upsetting to you? We all know that the children were taught 4 languages, and Alexandra has even written in her diary that she "helped Tatiana with a German lesson."
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  #130  
Old 01-15-2009, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
I have no intention of dragging AA over here. This is about Anastasia.
And as I have already posted: Anastasia's schoolbooks clearly showed that she took serious German lessons.
You told me this so many times, and yet you never post any of Anastasia's actual schoolbooks in German! Where is your source for that information. I've seen many letters Anastasia wrote in French, Russian and English. But, NOT German.


Quote:
All I have done, is to quote Russian soldiers stating that Alexandra spoke German to her daughters, and that the family was overheard speaking English together. Why is this so upsetting to you? We all know that the children were taught 4 languages, and Alexandra has even written in her diary that she "helped Tatiana with a German lesson."
The four daughters were NOT taught four languages mainly three, English, Russian and French. German was sheldomly used. You refuse to believe that since you want to try to make it seem that AA was Anastasia. There is no doubt Anna Anderson spoke German, but Anastasia NEVER did. I got that information from Empress Alexandra's biography that I posted. That biography was written by someone who actually known her.

Quote:
Really? How did they know the difference from German?
In many biographies it states that Alexandra DID NOT speak German because she didn't like the country and wasn't fond of the language.

Quote:
From the Life and Tragedy of Alexandra
Chapter XVI
They (Grand Duchesses) always spoke Russian among themselves and to the Emperor, English to their mother, and French to M. Gilliard. The elder girls had a smattering of German, but spoke it with difficulty; the younger ones and the Tsarevich did not know it at all.
FYI: Olga and Tatiana had SMATTERING German which means they knew very little German. Those sources came from Sophie Buxhoeveden a friend of the Imperial family. That is her book.

Quote:
I don't think anybody has ever said that Anastasia was a great German scholar. According to Gibbes, she spoke it poorly. And her schoolbooks contained several corrections, altough not as many as in her Russian writings.
Yes, Anastasia knew NO German. But, you continue to try to make it seem as if she spoke it fluently. You fail to show any of her schoolbooks in German.

Quote:
Dmitri Leuchtenberg did not ever meet Anastasia, so his statement should not even be included here.
We posted other sources from Sophie and Olga Alexandrovna that said Anastasia did NOT know much German. You got your souces from FOTR and the authors of that book King and Wilson never known Anastasia. I got my sources from those who actually known Anastasia.
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  #131  
Old 01-15-2009, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
ChatNoir you just said Anastasia knew German and before you said she spoke poor German.!
Yes, Anastasia did know German, but she did not, according to Gibbes, speak it well.
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  #132  
Old 01-15-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
You told me this so many times and yet you never post any of Anastasia's actual schoolbooks in German?
I cannot post any of her schoolbooks for the simple reason that they are now a part of the material used for AA's lawsuit in Germany. They were never returned to Ian Lilburn after the trial was over.

Quote:
The four daughters were NOT taught four languages mainly three, English, Russian and French. German was sheldomly used. You refuse to believe that since you want to try to make it seem that AA was Anastasia. There is no doubt Anna Anderson spoke German, but Anastasia NEVER did. I got that information from Empress Alexandra's biography that I posted.
She was taught German by Herr Kleinenberg, and later, in Tobolsk, she was with her other sisters scheduled for a German lesson every day according to Gilliard's timetables, now on display at the University of Lausanne.

Quote:
Many people can say they learn Spanish and French in school but, they don't say speak it fluently...s
And according to witnesses, Anastasia did not speak fluent German.

Quote:
In many biographies it states that Alexandra DID NOT want to speak German because she didn't like the country and wasn't fond of the language.
All I know, is that the Russian guards heard her speaking German to her daughters in captivity.
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  #133  
Old 01-15-2009, 06:24 PM
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I agree with Anastasia Evidence. We don't know what's in those books, they may not be what you say at all.

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All I know, is that the Russian guards heard her speaking German to her daughters in captivity.
You do not know that, because you cannot prove they didn't know the differences between languages. They didn't.

Quote:
And according to witnesses, Anastasia did not speak fluent German.
No, ANASTASIA ROMANOVA did not speak German well at all. She knew Russian, English and French very well, but very little German and never spoke it. You do mean the real Anastasia don't you?
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  #134  
Old 01-15-2009, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I agree with Anastasia Evidence. We don't know what's in those books, they may not be what you say at all.
All you have to do, is read Peter Kurth, he explains it all to you.

Quote:
You do not know that, because you cannot prove they didn't know the differences between languages. They didn't.
And that is a line that would get a big laugh anywhere in Europe.

Quote:
No, ANASTASIA ROMANOVA did not speak German well at all. She knew Russian, English and French very well, but very little German and never spoke it. You do mean the real Anastasia don't you?
Have I indicated anything else?
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  #135  
Old 01-15-2009, 07:47 PM
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And that is a line that would get a big laugh anywhere in Europe.
I don't think so. Especially not in those days. Parts of Russia were and still are very remote, little if any outside contact with foreigners, there was no media, no internet. Sure, rich traveling people in the smaller, closer countries of western Europe may have been exposed to several languages, but not the poor in the Ural region of Russia in the early 20th century.
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  #136  
Old 01-15-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I don't think so. Especially not in those days. Parts of Russia were and still are very remote, little if any outside contact with foreigners, there was no media, no internet. Sure, rich traveling people in the smaller, closer countries of western Europe may have been exposed to several languages, but not the poor in the Ural region of Russia in the early 20th century.
I don't have the book with me now, but in FOTR it is stated that when a letter went out from the Ipatiev House, and it was written in English, French or German, it was taken to an official in Ekaterinburg who spoke all three languages, for censure. Seems that they were not all that uneducated in the Urals....
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  #137  
Old 01-15-2009, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir
I don't have the book with me now, but in FOTR it is stated that when a letter went out from the Ipatiev House, and it was written in English, French or German, it was taken to an official in Ekaterinburg who spoke all three languages, for censure. Seems that they were not all that uneducated in the Urals....
Why would you agree with these sources? especially since the writers could be wrong since King and Wilson haven't exactly met any of the Imperial family. It's best to have resources backed up from those who knew the imperial family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir
All you have to do, is read Peter Kurth, he explains it all to you.
Kurth doesn't know everything, the best resources is the books that Olga Alexandrovna, Sophie Bux, Gilliard and Gibbes wrote. It's best to get sources from the people who were there during the captivity, and knewthe imperial family. And...you're criticizing me that I don't have information from the people who actually knew the imperial family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir
I cannot post any of her schoolbooks for the simple reason that they are now a part of the material used for AA's lawsuit in Germany. They were never returned to Ian Lilburn after the trial was over.
How do you know it ever existed, if there wasn't any actual photos of it? This is nothing but speculation.

Quote:
And according to witnesses, Anastasia did not speak fluent German.
No, Anastasia didn't . She did NOT speak any German.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir
All I know, is that the Russian guards heard her speaking German to her daughters in captivity.
Where are your sources? They were forbidden to speak German in the Ipatiev house, they only spoke Russian. This is nothing but hearsay.
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  #138  
Old 01-15-2009, 09:21 PM
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Why would you agree with these sources? especially since the writers could be wrong since King and Wilson haven't exactly met any of the Imperial family. It's best to have resources backed up from those who knew the imperial family.
If you have read FOTR, you will also have seen the sources where King and Wilson got their information.


Quote:
But, Peter Kurth's book is nothing but speculation and theories.
For your information, Kurth's book is the most extensive biography written about Anna Anderson. It contains no speculations and theories, but facts about her life, all backed up with more documentation than you have ever seen in any book. You will do well to read it.


Quote:
How do you know it ever existed, if there wasn't any actual photos of it? This is nothing but speculation.
So you accuse the German Court of lying?


Quote:
Where are your sources?
As I have already posted, they come from FOTR, who in turn got them from the journal kept by the guards at the Ipatiev House.
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  #139  
Old 01-16-2009, 12:39 AM
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when a letter went out from the Ipatiev House, and it was written in English, French or German, it was taken to an official in Ekaterinburg who spoke all three languages, for censure. Seems that they were not all that uneducated in the Urals....
Note they had to take it to an official because none of the other men could read it.

Chat you know very well you often say "Anastasia" when you are referring to AA. You also only use sources that back up AA and her cause and avoid others, such as Massie, which do not (as well as Gill, Melton, Coble, etc..) No matter how much to try to prove AN knew German she didn't and was not Anastasia, the DNA tests proven all the bodies found so it's pointless. It's like JK trying to say Alexei didn't have hemophilia, and he did, but whether he did or not, Tammet was not Alexei. Even if Anastasia knew ten languages, she still died in 1918 and wasn't AA.
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  #140  
Old 01-16-2009, 02:01 AM
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Notice they had to take it to an official, the ordinary men or even Yurovsky didn't know how to read it.
Just a little aside here: Yurovsky's own memoirs make only the briefest mention of a few years spent living in Berlin, noting that he became proficient in German.
Also, several of the guardsmen in the Ipatiev House were from Austria (Rudolf Lacher and Andras Verhas), or Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia.
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