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  #81  
Old 11-29-2008, 02:45 PM
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Bear, we aren't talking about Victoria, we're talking about Alexandra. ALL the people who knew Alexandra personally and wrote books about her said English was her main and natural language. Alexandra used English with her children and friends, though they were Russian. The fact that she and her siblings corresponded in English is further proof. If they were speaking German 'behind closed doors' they'd have preferred to use that language in letters and diaries, however, they didn't, they used English. That should tell you something.
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  #82  
Old 11-29-2008, 10:10 PM
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>>English was, of course, her natural language.<<
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After she joined her grandmother's, Queen Victoria's, she undoubtedly spoke English more than German, however, this was not her first language. German was. English came second in the royal German families. However, most of the royal children spoke many languages, therefore, they switched back and forth as those who know more than one language often do.
Either way, English was the language Alexandra mostly spoke and knew fluently. She used it to write letters to Nicholas, Queen Victoria, her brother and sisters and children. German was not a language she used as frequently.

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What is meant that >>English ...her natural language...>> is that she personally felt more comfortable with English by the time she was engaged to the future Nicholas II.
She was raised in England for a long time, that's why she knew English mostly. She may have been German-born but, she didn't know German as well as English, because she didn't live in Germany as long as she did in England.

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You must realize that Queen Victoria's husband was German through and through. He prefer speaking German and the family did so behind closed doors.
Behind closed doors? there really isn't no evidence of this, this is totally made up. So you believe that they were secretly speaking German? If they were speaking German behind doors,why didn't they use it more often, then? Instead they corresponded in English to others.

Yes, this was mentioned many times in books about Alexandra. When the Alexandra and the Russian relatives would visit their German cousins in Germany they would speak English because that was the language in which the German relatives also spoke fluently. They knew Alexandra's natural language was English.
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English was, of course, her natural language. She spoke and wrote it to her brother and sisters, and later to her husband and children and to all those she knew well.
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  #83  
Old 11-30-2008, 01:30 AM
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Alexandra also hated germans because of her fathers grand duchy was aborbed into germany and her father was rather admiant about it since it took his states rights away but a exmple is one of the disagreement they had where nicholas was giveing a captainship or something to his german cousin willy where Alexandra didnt want him to do so but he said but sunny they made me a general in their army i have to return the favor dont quaote me on the line but thats from 2 soruces plus she was raised to be a english lady she had a english nanny and spent months - years in england with her grand mother queen victoria

forgot to add this she spoke english with the family only since her russain very bad in writeing n speaking russain was just as bad so the family with her spoke english while her husband spoke russains to the childern
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  #84  
Old 11-30-2008, 10:54 AM
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Alexandra was unpopular at court and with the Russian people. She didn't know much Russian and didn't speak French as fluently. But, she did learn French and wrote about it in many letters to Nicholas. She was improving her French during the late 1890's.Nicholas would correct her errors in French. French was the other language Alexandra used more so than Russian. She didn't fully master Russian, but she only knew Russian somewhat. She wrote and spoke in French with Alexei and Anya V.When she appeared she was silent, seemingly cold, haughty and indifferent. She was hurt by their unenthusiastic reception, and declared herself to be tired of the loose morals and etiquette of the Russian court. Alexandra was called prim and dull, provincial, uninteresting and haughty by the Russian court.
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  #85  
Old 11-30-2008, 01:38 PM
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this kind of argueement is pointless on these fourms since 3 langaunes spoken by all royals in those days were german english french and if need be his or her own native
tounge
and hence why everyone spoke it but this is pointless to talk about since she wrote everything in english and alexandra husband wrote to her in english as well so i highly doubt every text i read on her and also her own dairy but both anastasiaevidence is right and annawas whats her name excuse me forgetting her name but knowing and speaking them daily are 2 differant things i personally forgot my german and french
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  #86  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:09 AM
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Some people feel they need more further evidence to prove what I was trying to say, when I said the Imperial family didn't use German. I already showed them information from a biography of Alexandra. But, people still want more evidence such as actual writings of the imperial family.
There are many other books that prove that Alexandra wrote in English usually. People already said that many times.
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  #87  
Old 12-16-2008, 11:23 AM
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did u try posting links to their diaries love letters how about corrspands from the front to his wife or how about the letters from sunny to the childern how about when her mother died and how many years she spent in england with queen victoria theres many of these things online but anastasiaevidence just go with what the tsars sister said once i tell them the truth they will never belive me
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  #88  
Old 12-16-2008, 12:10 PM
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http://www.alexanderpalace.org/letterstsaritsa/Here is an good website that shows the hundreds of letters the Tsarina wrote to the tsar Nicholas.
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  #89  
Old 12-17-2008, 12:12 PM
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Goodness gracious. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The royal families of Europe spoke three main languages, French, German and English, accept Austrians who liked Italian or the Scandinavians so add their languages to their own mix. So what if Alexandra only wrote in English? This doesn't mean she didn't speak French, which most of you say she did but not fluently. This doesn't mean she didn't speak German, which she did since she was the daughter of a German Duke of Hesse.

As for her use of German after she left her father's home, she apparently preferred English.

German is a guttural language and it takes great effort to speak it and all my relatives prefer using English, as well. Those who stopped using it after their parents, who spoke nothing but German in their home, passed away, have forgotten most of their German. However, if forced to speak it, again, I'm sure most of them would pick it back up and be able to speak it somewhat or fluently.

What is apparent to me AnastasiaEvidence is your lack of understanding of the royality behind closed doors before WWI. When speaking to each other they didn't speak a complete sentence in just one language. They plucked words out of English or German or French or whatever language so one sentence might contain all three languages. Our family use to joke: When we talked politics it was in English. When we made love we spoke in French. When cursing our horse we cursed in German. We spoke Russian to our maids, cooks and stable boys. Of course, saying this might left some eyebrows but before WWI there was a huge social order and people knew what rung of the social ladder they were born. Young people here in the USA today can't even imagine the hard lines drawn between these old social classes. Sure, you've seen some of it in the Jane Austin movies or other PBS specials but until you've actually experienced it, you can't fully understand it.

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  #90  
Old 12-17-2008, 05:29 PM
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wasnt jane austin movies set in the early 1800 plus movies settings and place in the world for a woman in those days are differant then what ae saying shes saying she didnt speak it which is comfrimed by dr gildard i hope the spelling is correct also the memoris of a host of people bear honestly read up on the person and the hasburgs had to learn hungrain too but if you doubt me check otto hasburg and his speech when he 1st arrived in hungary after 40 years or something issue at hand is you say potato she says potateo lets call the whole thing off honestly this has no bareing on the fact she was shy and spoke french and english mainly english she hated germany with venom bear you forgetting she also was remember what year germany was founded a year after the fanco prussain war her nation was aborbed into the greater prussain state her mother died of yellow fever at a early age for her she grew up mainly with her grand mother queen victoria she had a britsh nanny but meh i give up
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  #91  
Old 12-17-2008, 06:31 PM
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Goodness gracious. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The royal families of Europe spoke three main languages, French, German and English, accept Austrians who liked Italian or the Scandinavians so add their languages to their own mix. So what if Alexandra only wrote in English? This doesn't mean she didn't speak French, which most of you say she did but not fluently. This doesn't mean she didn't speak German, which she did since she was the daughter of a German Duke of Hesse.
Just because Alix's father was a German duke does NOT mean Alix spoke German fluently...Alix was raised in England for awhile and she usually used English. Her father doesn't represent what language Alix spoke. Alexandra didn't live in Germany for a long time. She lived in another country where there is another langauge mainly spoken. She didn't like Germany and didn't want to speak the language. Since, the Russians was enemies with the Germans the Russian imperial family (Nicholas and Alexandra) would NOT speak German!

Quote:
German is a guttural language and it takes great effort to speak it and all my relatives prefer using English, as well. Those who stopped using it after their parents, who spoke nothing but German in their home, passed away, have forgotten most of their German. However, if forced to speak it, again, I'm sure most of them would pick it back up and be able to speak it somewhat or fluently.
Goodness Gracious! Please get back on-topic we are not talking about your relatives. The imperial family guttering German in private is hearsay that hasn't been proven to be true. We are talking about the languages that Alix spoke. You don't know if that was the same for the imperial family. Just because it happened with your family.


Quote:
What is apparent to me AnastasiaEvidence is your lack of understanding of the royality behind closed doors before WWI. When speaking to each other they didn't speak a complete sentence in just one language.
We are only talking about the Romanov royal family. NOT all the other royalty. There is no evidence that they were talking behind closed doors. This seems very unlikely and how would you know if you weren't exactly there speaking to Alexandra or the family? You didn't personally know the imperial family. This hasn't been mentioned at all with the Imperial family.

Quote:
They plucked words out of English or German or French or whatever language so one sentence might contain all three languages. Our family use to joke: When we talked politics it was in English. When we made love we spoke in French. When cursing our horse we cursed in German. We spoke Russian to our maids, cooks and stable boys. Of course, saying this might left some eyebrows but before WWI there was a huge social order and people knew what rung of the social ladder they were born. Young people here in the USA today can't even imagine the hard lines drawn between these old social classes. Sure, you've seen some of it in the Jane Austin movies or other PBS specials but until you've actually experienced it, you can't fully understand it.
This doesn't even seem possible, not for the Imperial family. If they were plucking words out of German, I'm quite sure Alexandra would have used that language in her diaries, and letters but, she didn't. She didn't even speak German to Nicholas, or her children as much as English. She used the language that she mainly wrote in. If Alix knew German fluently, then she would have perfered to use that language and not English. The fact that Alix perfered to write in English, instead of German to her cousins,sisters and brother is proof she didn't use German. Alix didn't spend all her life living in Germany.
Quote:
wasnt jane austin movies set in the early 1800
Yes, Jane Austin's movies were set in the early 1800's. But, that is way way off-topic. Please get back on-topic to the discussion of the languages Alix and Nicholas spoke.
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  #92  
Old 12-18-2008, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
This doesn't even seem possible, not for the Imperial family. If they were plucking words out of German, I'm quite sure Alexandra would have used that language in her diaries, and letters but, she didn't. She didn't even speak German to Nicholas, or her children as much as English.
This is very possible. I have studied French, German, Italian, Spanish and English. When I was in Italy sometimes I answered in Italian and Spanish. Sometimes it was French. Those things just popped out of my mouth without my thinking and I believe that that is what Bear means and I say it's entirely possible for it to happen.
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  #93  
Old 12-18-2008, 07:32 PM
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plucking words is differant then speaking words n mixing up what your using i belive honestly the literature for alix says she mainly spoke english and had a deep seated hatred for all things german if bear is doubting the texts and the litature on the alix we can then arguee and russ if you ever seen a otto von habsburg interveiw you know the training the royals got in any launage they dont mix it up to pluck words out of their mouths the man knew more hungrain then i thought humanly possible
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  #94  
Old 12-18-2008, 08:32 PM
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No, she didn't hate German until WWI.
Alexandra, Page 11 by Carolly Erickson:
"Though she showed only average ability in French, her English was fluent (albeit spoken with a strong German accent) and she excelled at the ladylike art of needlework.

Page 13 QV's opinion of Ella and Serge's upcoming nuptials:
"It was common knowledge, the Queen said, that marriages between Russians and Germans were doomed."

They were German and thought themselves thus until they married into the Russian Family then considered themselves Russians. Lili Dehn writes that it was fashionable to have a German nurse/nanny in St. Petersburg. Then it was fashionable to have an English one. And English was spoken at the court.
German fell out of favor (at the Russian Court the anti-German came from Nicholas Nicholaivitch, see "Memoirs of the Crwon Prince of Germany" between 66-70) and everybody switched to another language. But she (Alix) spoke it.
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  #95  
Old 12-18-2008, 09:11 PM
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auctually she did hate germany before ww1 her fathers duchy was aborbed after the franco prussain war check the dairies and comments she said about the kaiser for a example but i m not gonna arguee this its frankly pointless because she grew up in england after her mothers death whom died of yellow fever she was literaly trice crused and this is disrepecting her in more ways then some
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  #96  
Old 12-19-2008, 06:35 AM
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The Electorate of Hesse-Cassel was annexed by Prussia in 1866; Hesse-Darmstadt retained its status as a Grand Duchy.
Alix was a Hesse-Darmstadt. Her father became Grand Duke of Hesse and by Rhine in 1877, five years after she was born.
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  #97  
Old 12-19-2008, 01:44 PM
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When any of you get around to having a lengthy conversation with a well educated and multi-language speaking royal, then come back here and tell me if I'm wrong.

A few of you seem to find this need to continue your false ideas that anyone German born in a German state didn't speak German along with other languages from infancy until they left their country and/or their communities. Do you think it makes Alexandra less German because she spoke and wrote English as a teenager and as an adult? It doesn't.

I know Germans and the German-Russian characters in their various social levels as it was at the turn of the 20th century. My background gives me first hand knowledge of Germans and German-Russians.

I haven't denied the fact that Alexandra didn't write German or speak German once she was living with Queen Victoria at such a young age and then wedded to Nicky, the future Nicholas II.

Nor do I deny the facts that the British royal family pushed away their German language and background into a dark dark corner where they hoped it would be forgotten when fighting Germany in WWI and WWII.

Surly you remember reading that the Russian masses believed Alexandra was a German agent and their enemy? Why? Could it have been because she was German born and bred?

And, why did I used Jane Austin as a example? Most young people have seen very little of German royality unless it has to do with Kaiser Wilhelm II, Hitler and the Third Reich. Have any of you read a book or seen a movie or a tv special that didn't make the Germans look like evil Nazis who's aim in life, or so it appears, was that of gunning down the innocent? Since the majority of you haven't, I used Jane Austin's stories, which have been made into movies which show some of the social class differences which existed in the 1800s to WWI, better known at that time as THE GREAT WAR. And that is why I used her stories as an example.

Before WWI, the royal family lineage in Europe and Russia was dominated by those who were German. Have any of you ever ready the book Hessian Tapestry?

What some of you need to do is take up a few books that deal with the German history. There was life before Kaiser Wilhelm II and Hitler. There was life before the German states became part of a country known by most of you as Germany.

Queen Victoria, her husband, Albert, and their children, one of which was Alexandra's mother, did speak German among themselves and behind closed doors. After Albert died, German was no longer used to the degree that it was before his death in 1861.

I've really nothing more to add, accept to suggest you talk to people who are more in tune with the old establishment when royal families ruled and/or were a part of the social classes in Europe, Russia and the rest of the world.

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  #98  
Old 12-19-2008, 02:38 PM
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This is very possible. I have studied French, German, Italian, Spanish and English. When I was in Italy sometimes I answered in Italian and Spanish. Sometimes it was French. Those things just popped out of my mouth without my thinking and I believe that that is what Bear means and I say it's entirely possible for it to happen.
I don't agree with you at all. But, that didn't happen with the Imperial family. You don't have evidence of this actually occuring with the Imperial family. Unless you can provide proof of the imperial family actual speaking languages this way, that can not be proven.
Quote:
No, she didn't hate German until WWI.
Alexandra disliked Germany ever since the Coronation of 1896.
Quote:
Alexandra, Page 11 by Carolly Erickson:
"Though she showed only average ability in French, her English was fluent (albeit spoken with a strong German accent) and she excelled at the ladylike art of needlework.
Naturally, she spoke Russian with a strong English accent, and any European who learned English spoke with an English accent, as Nicholas did.

Alix had a English accent, NOT a German accent. Like I've said just because Alix was German-born does NOT mean German was the language she spoke fluently.English was Alix's natural language rather than German. She even spoke it with her brother most of the time, who was also completely fluent in it.

Quote:
They were German and thought themselves thus until they married into the Russian Family then considered themselves Russians.
Some sources:
Alexandra wasn't popular in Russia and she became even less popular during war, because she was German born. People accused her of collaboration with Germany, while they forgot that Alix was more English than German(with her children and husband she spoke English never German).

In England she visited her grandmother Victoria for all holidays, and it was Victoria who oversaw her education, plus she was raised by an English nanny, Mary Anne Orchard. As Alix said herself, the German language was her the language of her homeland, but the English language was her birthright. She spoke both well, was awkward in French and Russian, and the whole Russian family spoke English in their private home life, in deference to her.

Alix and her sisters were raised and stayed with Queen Victoria in England. So they were English speaking NOT German speaking during that time.
Quote:
Lili Dehn writes that it was fashionable to have a German nurse/nanny in St. Petersburg. Then it was fashionable to have an English one. And English was spoken at the court.
French was mainly the language spoken at the Russian court.
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  #99  
Old 12-19-2008, 03:27 PM
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When any of you get around to having a lengthy conversation with a well educated and multi-language speaking royal, then come back here and tell me if I'm wrong.
All I'm just saying here is that the only sources we can get of who Alix talked in general can be from letters Alix wrote, and books based on Alix. You just don't have major evidence to prove that Alix exaclty spoke that way to her family.

Quote:
A few of you seem to find this need to continue your false ideas that anyone German born in a German state didn't speak German along with other languages from infancy until they left their country and/or their communities. Do you think it makes Alexandra less German because she spoke and wrote English as a teenager and as an adult? It doesn't.
I didn't say ALL German born people don't speak German. Many of the people who are born in Germany, do speak German. But, we aren't talking about the whole people of Germany! We are talking about Alix, she grew up and picked up the language in England were she lived for most of her teenage years since six years old. As Alix said herself, the German language was her the language of her homeland, but the English language was her birthright.


Quote:

What some of you need to do is take up a few books that deal with the German history. There was life before Kaiser Wilhelm II and Hitler. There was life before the German states became part of a country known by most of you as Germany.
I agree, it's always good to read and do research about German history. Just to have a full understanding.

Quote:
Queen Victoria, her husband, Albert, and their children, one of which was Alexandra's mother, did speak German among themselves and behind closed doors. After Albert died, German was no longer used to the degree that it was before his death in 1861.
Yes, this is true for Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. But, we are talking about her grand-daughter Alix.

Quote:
And, why did I used Jane Austin as a example? Most young people have seen very little of German royality unless it has to do with Kaiser Wilhelm II, Hitler and the Third Reich. Have any of you read a book or seen a movie or a tv special that didn't make the Germans look like evil Nazis who's aim in life, or so it appears, was that of gunning down the innocent? Since the majority of you haven't, I used Jane Austin's stories, which have been made into movies which show some of the social class differences which existed in the 1800s to WWI, better known at that time as THE GREAT WAR. And that is why I used her stories as an example.
Jane Austen was a English author, she didn't really have much to do with German history. I do understand what you mean by the social classes.I've seen some movies based on German history, but most of the one's I've seen were documentaries. I think in different countries of Europe people speak their language in many different ways. But, we are only talking about the Imperial family, and I don't believe they guttered other languages in their mouths.

Before WWI, the royal family lineage in Europe and Russia was dominated by those who were German. Have any of you ever ready the book Hessian Tapestry?
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Old 12-19-2008, 03:44 PM
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Right, AE, which doesn't mean she DIDN'T speak it or she DIDN'T know it. She did.
I am wondering AE, though, how many languages do you speak and when somebody talks to you in one language, can you switch quickly over to that language completely? Or do you encorporate other languages into your conversation as the words pop into your brain. If you can converse completely in one language, good for you. I can't. My brain adds the language as I go along so I sound more like I belong with the Catalonians.
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