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  #261  
Old 01-26-2009, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Then, again, how could Kobylinski and Gibbes state that they spoke it badly?
Do you have an English source for these? I've only found quotes in Russian from the web.
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  #262  
Old 01-26-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tian View Post
Do you have an English source for these? I've only found quotes in Russian from the web.
These quotes come from Wilton's book "The last Days of the Romanovs". The book can be read in its entirety on the net. Just look up the title, and yksi, kaksi, kolme, you have the whole thing at your fingertips.
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  #263  
Old 01-26-2009, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tian View Post
Here are two examples of Tatiana's German knowledge.

Tatiana's letter to Gretchen von Fabrice in German. (Alix an Gretchen, p. 183)


Tatiana's German grammar book from 1907. (Na Detskoi Polovine, p. 84)
Tian's illustration is excellent because this provides us with an example of what kind of German lessons all of the grand duchesses would have had.

The oldest, Olga, would have had a higher level of course, because she was older, then the lessons would have step down in levels for each of her sisters due to their age and abilities.

Since Alexis had been considered the future Tsar of Russia, Russian and French, which was the international language and not just for the royal courts, were Alexis primary languages.
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  #264  
Old 01-26-2009, 07:35 PM
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AWF: >>Here is a perfect example of this, from Lili Dehn's book:

The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

Alexandra Feodorovna and Romanov Russia, The Real Tsaritsa witten by Lili Dehn - Part One - Old Russia - Chapter VI<<

-------

Bear:

Lili Dehn says that "everyone was suspicious of her" [Alexandra]. Who was everyone? Are we talking about the soldiers? The nurses? The doctors? I think this is too broad of statement for anyone, even Dehn, to make.

"...the soliders declared she was speaking German"

Who knows? Maybe she did speak German to a wounded German-Russians who didn't speak Russian and needed to talk to someone so far from his village. Rumors sometimes start with the truth but can get bent and made ugly. In this case, a good turn may have created this problem for Alexandra and the girls.

Remember, the revolutionaries were painting Alexandra as being a German in all their speeches, literature and by word of mouth. All of this bled into the world of the peasants of which the soldiers in the hospitals were.

When Lili Dehn heard the rumor, she responded in saying:
>>Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly<<

Of course, I don't know for sure that is what happen, however, she does mention that "this report once started was magnified" so, maybe, even when she spoke English thereafter some of the soldiers thought she was speaking German because others said that was what she was speaking.

I've never even suggested that Lili Dehn didn't say what you've told us.

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  #265  
Old 01-27-2009, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
AWF: >>Here is a perfect example of this, from Lili Dehn's book:

The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

Alexandra Feodorovna and Romanov Russia, The Real Tsaritsa witten by Lili Dehn - Part One - Old Russia - Chapter VI<<

-------

Bear:

Lili Dehn says that "everyone was suspicious of her" [Alexandra]. Who was everyone? Are we talking about the soldiers? The nurses? The doctors? I think this is too broad of statement for anyone, even Dehn, to make.
I don't think she was only talking about the hospital but everyone, the Russian public in general. There were so many rumors going around about her being pro German and a German spy.

Quote:
"...the soliders declared she was speaking German"

Who knows? Maybe she did speak German to a wounded German-Russians who didn't speak Russian and needed to talk to someone so far from his village. Rumors sometimes start with the truth but can get bent and made ugly. In this case, a good turn may have created this problem for Alexandra and the girls.
Well actually what Lili said was that Alix was speaking English to her daughters and ladies in waiting (Vyrubova and Bux) and the soldiers mistook it for German and spread the story around, believed by others.. Any imagined conversation between Alix and some half German soldier is strictly in Bear's imagination, not in the book written by a lady who was there.

Quote:
Remember, the revolutionaries were painting Alexandra as being a German in all their speeches, literature and by word of mouth. All of this bled into the world of the peasants of which the soldiers in the hospitals were.
Well of course, this is the point. And this is also why I say that the same thing happened in Ekaterinburg- she was speaking English and some of the soldiers who didn't know the difference assumed it was German, due to the rumors, just like what happened in the hospital, documented by Dehn.

Quote:
When Lili Dehn heard the rumor, she responded in saying:
>>Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly<<
No Lili didn't hear the rumor first- she was with Alix when it happened, she went to the hospital too! She only added that later a rumor spread due to the soldiers mistaking English for German.

Quote:
Of course, I don't know for sure that is what happen, however, she does mention that "this report once started was magnified" so, maybe, even when she spoke English thereafter some of the soldiers thought she was speaking German because others said that was what she was speaking.
Bear what are you saying? Are you trying to make up stuff that didn't happen and say 'maybe it happened' when there is no evidence whatsoever, just to hold onto your dream that the family used German more than people said? Why are you doing this? The statement is what it is, no need to add fiction between the lines.

Quote:
I've never even suggested that Lili Dehn didn't say what you've told us.

AGRBear
But you have just accused Lili's statement as being something other than what it was meant to be, different than what really happened, and attempted to vasty distort its true meaning with your own fantasy version of what it must have 'really' meant.
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  #266  
Old 01-27-2009, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Well of course, this is the point. And this is also why I say that the same thing happened in Ekaterinburg- she was speaking English and some of the soldiers who didn't know the difference assumed it was German, due to the rumors, just like what happened in the hospital, documented by Dehn.
what are you saying? Are you trying to make up stuff that didn't happen and say 'maybe it happened' when there is no evidence whatsoever, just to hold onto your dream that the family used German more than people said? Why are you doing this? The statement is what it is, no need to add fiction between the lines.

But you have just accused Lili's statement as being something other than what it was meant to be, different than what really happened, and attempted to vasty distort its true meaning with your own fantasy version of what it must have 'really' meant

(I think I have let AWF answer her own allegation.)
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  #267  
Old 01-27-2009, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tian View Post
Here are two examples of Tatiana's German knowledge.

Tatiana's letter to Gretchen von Fabrice in German. (Alix an Gretchen, p. 183)

This is interesting since it was only 1909 and they had lessons as late as Tobolsk. Tatiana's German here is quite fluent, even if somewhere between basic and intermediary so she has obviously been studying for a little while. Even if they didn't have cause to speak the language much, her written German at least must have been quite good if she kept up the level of lessons for the next few years.
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  #268  
Old 01-27-2009, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
...[in part]....
Well actually what Lili said was that Alix was speaking English to her daughters and ladies in waiting (Vyrubova and Bux) and the soldiers mistook it for German and spread the story around, believed by others.. Any imagined conversation between Alix and some half German soldier is strictly in Bear's imagination, not in the book written by a lady who was there.
....
How did Dehn know that the rumor started at that moment? As I suggested, this same information, not a rumor, might have been started earlier when Alexandra was speaking German to a German-Russian soldier, who didn't speak Russian very well, and, needed comfort. So, when the soldiers on this particular day (as told to us by Dehn) heard the women speaking English the soldiers took for granted they were speaking German.

Truth is, we just do not know. Sure, we can have theories. My theory may be correct or completely wrong. Who knows for sure?

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  #269  
Old 01-27-2009, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Just because something is in a 'court record' does NOT- repeat NOT NOT- necessarily make it a 'fact.' People lie in court all the time. I have been lied on in court. People remember things incorrectly and make human errors. So no, recording what they said in court does not at all make what they said a fact.'

This is about an exhibit which was introduced as evidence (you must have seen such things on Perry Mason) and has nothing to do with anyone lying or not. Unless you are saying that Berenberg Gossler was lying when he accepted in court that the schoolbooks showed that AN studied German? Surely not, since you normally extol the veracity of his statements as if your life depended on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Obviously, you don't know what evidence is.
Indeed I do, please see below


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Exactly! It's quite said people don't understand the difference between a fact and opinion. Even a second grader can tell the difference between a fact and opinion.

Then why can't you tell the difference? You also seem confused as to what is considered hearsay so here is a link to a legal dictionary. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay
Exhibits introduced as evidence are NOT hearsay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Ferrymansdaughter, ... Show me these so called "German court records" then?
You and AWF are both refusing to accept that the Court Records show that GD Anastasia's schoolbooks were presented in evidence during the trials. You are also refusing to accept that BOTH sides were happy to accept their provenance. You similarly refuse to accept that the books show she studied German. As all of this is in the court records which have to be confirmed by both sets of lawyers and the judges, it is up to you two to PROVE that those records are inaccurate, not for us to prove that they are accurate. Or are you saying that all the lawyers and the various sets of judges were lying?

It has been said that Chat and I only press this point because we are trying to show that AA was AN. (I won't even bother to point out that it is AWF who keeps dragging AA into this debate - or indeed just about every debate.) How about we are pressing it because it is a FACT, regardless of who AA was. In fact her identity could be considered irrelevant. You are trying to twist the facts because they may (and it is only "may", not "do" since as I have said AA's identity actually could be considered of no relevance to this point) contradict your theory. It is like saying night is day or black is white. AE, you can say until you are blue in the face that there is no proof Anastasia had any German lessons but the facts patently contradict you.

I have to say I wonder why you get so het up and fly in the face of the obvious which is actually rather ridiculous. If you are so confident you are right, why can't you say "yes AN did study German but it doesn't mean she and AA were the same person."?
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  #270  
Old 01-27-2009, 02:40 PM
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Source:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
...[in part]....
From my Darling Peter Kurth with his permission:
[B]The German workbooks were properly submitted to the second Hamburg tribunal in 1964 and acknolwedged as authentic by both sides in the dispute. They were bought at auction by Ian Lilburn, a friend of Prince Frederick..... He was never reimbursed (nor expected to be) for the cost of the notebooks; neither were they ever returned to him -- the notebooks, presumably, are still among all the records of the trial. A point of interest: Lilburn spent a great deal of money on these items, but not because anyone needed to prove that the tsar's daughters were tutored in German, as they certainly were -- even Gilliard acknowledged and identified the German tutor at court, Herr Kleinenberg, who presumably wasn't hanging around Tsarskoe Selo twiddling his thumbs.....
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
This is interesting since it was only 1909 and they had lessons as late as Tobolsk. Tatiana's German here is quite fluent, even if somewhere between basic and intermediary so she has obviously been studying for a little while. Even if they didn't have cause to speak the language much, her written German at least must have been quite good if she kept up the level of lessons for the next few years.
>> Gilliard acknowledged and identified the German tutor at court, Herr Kleinenberg<<

Quote:
Originally Posted by tian View Post
Here are two examples of Tatiana's German knowledge.

Tatiana's letter to Gretchen von Fabrice in German. (Alix an Gretchen, p. 183)


Tatiana's German grammar book from 1907. (Na Detskoi Polovine, p. 84)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Fact: It is noted in the journal from the Ipatiev House that the Tsarina twice spoke in German to her daughters, and was told by Avdayev that it was forbidden.
Fact: The workbooks of the Grand Duchesses showed that they studied German "in a serious manner".
Fact: Gilliard's time tables, on display at The University of Lausanne, show the Grand Duchesses scheduled for German lessons once a day while in Tobolsk.
Fact: The Empress wrote in her diary: Tonight I helped Tatiana with a German lesson.
But nowhere does it say that they spoke it perfectly.
Let me repeat this part of Chat's post: >>It is noted in the journal from the Ipatiev House that the Tsarina twice spoke in German to her daughters, and was told by Avdayev that it was forbidden.<<

Spoke twice?

Since Alexandra and some of her daughters could speak German, was it possible that they did speak German as reported? Yes. Did they? As often is the case in these last months of the captivity of the royal family, all we have is what the Bolsheviks have told us.

Is it possible someone lied in order to provide evidence that Alexandra was rightly accused of being a German spy? I don't know. Is was possbile.

Is it possible that someone mistook English for German? I don't know. With that said, I think the majority of the Russians living in and near Ekaterinburg knew what German sounded like. According to Baadeker's guide book about Ekaterinburg, he mentions the fact that there was a Lutheran Church near the post office. This means there was a group of German-Russian Lutherans living in and near Ekaterinburg. And, German-Russians always made themselves known whereever they lived in Russsia.

We know that Avdayev, who was born in 1887, was educated and more than likey had business, he was a locksmith, with German-Russians during his life before 1918.

>>...he attended the local grammar and secondary schools, and seem to have been an educated man. At the end of his education he became an apprentice locksmith in Perm.<<. p. 117 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson.

Grammar school is like our American grade school kindergarten through 8th grade. Secondary is like our high schools and could not be attended unless recommended by a person's teachers.

Perm was the capital of the province of the same name. In 1912 it had 61,000, 19 churches which included German-Russian Lutheran and Catholic churches, and had a large collection of products produced by local the "cottage industry" as well as factories.

Some posters seem to think the towns in the eastern part of Russia were filled with backward people who never had any communication with the west accept by some lone travelor on a donkey. The wireless and the railroad brought from the west all the recent news.

>>During World War I he joined the Bolshevik Party, and following the October Revolution became a member of the Ural Regional Soviet. In November 1917 Avdayev got a position at the Zlokazov [p. 118] Brother factory.<<

Do I have any proof Avdayev spoke German? No. Does anyone know if he did?


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  #271  
Old 01-27-2009, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
How did Dehn know that the rumor started at that moment?
Lili was there, we weren't, so we're going to have to assume she knew more than us and that is what happened. Yes I did say I believed the Bolsheviks in Ekaterinburg probably mistook English for German, because of Alix rep as the hated 'German woman/spy' and thinking any foreign language she spoke would be German. This theory was backed up by the fact that the same very thing had happend in the hospital in front of witnesses. I don't feel this is the same thing as making up a new chapter to the story of a hypothetical Russian-German soldier who never existed. Besides, and I know I can't prove this one way or the other, but just saying, I would say that Alix (who was never known to use German my those who knew her anyway) would have avoided German even more knowing the rumors about her, and the allegations she was on the German side of the war.
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  #272  
Old 01-27-2009, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Lili was there, we weren't, so we're going to have to assume she knew more than us and that is what happened.
Yes, she was. And still you have the audacity to write everyone else's testimonies off as "he said, she said" if they happen to disagree with you. A little consistency would be nice here.

Quote:
Yes I did say I believed the Bolsheviks in Ekaterinburg probably mistook English for German, because of Alix rep as the hated 'German woman/spy' and thinking any foreign language she spoke would be German.
Again, you are forgetting that several of the bolsheviks were foreigners, some of them even German speaking. And Yurovsky himself spoke fluent German. Also, Avdayev was not a common soldier, he was the commandant in the Ipatiev House.

Quote:
I would say that Alix (who was never known to use German my those who knew her anyway) would have avoided German even more knowing the rumors about her, and the allegations she was on the German side of the war.
And still she made sure her daughters had German lessons, she even helped them along.
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  #273  
Old 01-27-2009, 05:55 PM
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Yes, she was. And still you have the audacity to write everyone else's testimonies off as "he said, she said" if they happen to disagree with you. A little consistency would be nice here.
I have already explained myself. I said because the mistake on the languages happened in the hospital it likely could have happened again. This is very different than inventing a hypothetical character and incident that did not take place. When you look at this whole thing, and everything about the family, technically everything is 'he said she said' and I guess it all comes down to whom you choose to believe and whom you choose to call 'liar.' However when Dehn wrote that book, she had no idea of any reason to lie about the story, so she told what she saw and heard. Also you can't even say Lili was lying to defame AA since she turned out years later to be an AA supporter!



Quote:
Again, you are forgetting that several of the bolsheviks were foreigners, some of them even German speaking.
No there weren't any German Bolsheviks! And the soldiers in St. Petersburg who mistook English for German had been on the battlefield fighting German soldiers, and maybe alongside British ones, yet they still were unable to distinguish English from German.

Quote:
And Yurovsky himself spoke fluent German. Also, Avdayev was not a common soldier, he was the commandant in the Ipatiev House.
And yet they still had to take the letters to the official in town for translations.

Quote:
And still she made sure her daughters had German lessons, she even helped them along.
It's never written anywhere that Alix in particuluar 'made sure' they took German. For someone who was allegedly stressing German,the kids sure never learned it! German was a common part of the upper class aristocracy cirriculum to learn certain languages, regardless of who their parents were. Dagmar, whose parents hated Germany, still took German lessons. It's only mentioned once that Alix gave Tatiana alone a German lesson. You make so much of this. What is so important to you? Chat it's very, very obvious you are only obsessed with grabbing at anything to try to embellish the knowledge the girls had of German because of AA. This has become quite ridiculous. How many times must be go in circles battling the same old quotes?
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  #274  
Old 01-27-2009, 06:00 PM
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I would like to make an announcement with bear's permission. She has apologized for the posts where she said me and Anastasia Evidence were the same person, she knows better and has had the honor to admit she was wrong. Thanks, Bear. I am posting this not to humiliate her, but to let anyone who may have read her posts before they were deleted to know for sure it wasn't true. AE is a different person and has many online friends who can vouch for her. She runs her own forum and has beautiful sites she's made devoted to OTMA. Just because we happen to share the same views on many things does not mean we are the same person, we're not. AE is a very nice person and has posted many excellent things and knowledgeable pieces of info. She deserves to be respected for herself and not be called me.
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  #275  
Old 01-27-2009, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Also you can't even say Lili was lying to defame AA since she turned out years later to be an AA supporter!
What on earth does AA have to do with this?

Quote:
No there weren't any German Bolsheviks!
Several of the guards in the Ipatiev House were Austrian or from the Baltics. Don't tell me they did not know German.

Quote:
And yet they still had to take the letters to the official in town for translations.
Not reading a language does not in any way mean that you cannot identify it.

Quote:
It's never written anywhere that Alix in particuluar 'made sure' they took German. For someone who was allegedly stressing German,the kids sure never learned it!
Then how do you explain Tatiana's letter in German?
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  #276  
Old 01-28-2009, 04:54 PM
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I am honestly tired of going around in circles in this thread while well known and unrepentant AA supporters Russo, Ferrymans and Chat continue to push some alleged knowledge of German Anastasia had when evidence contradicts it, just to hold onto hope that AA was AN because AA used German. I'm sorry, but I can no longer participate seriously in this thread knowing that is the main sticking point and goal here, regardless of denials, which are like trying to tell me the sky isn't blue. I still maintain that the girls were exposed to German through lessons, the older more than the younger ones, but it was not used in the family like Russian, English and French, and that they never actually learned it on a functional basis, did not speak it or use it.
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  #277  
Old 01-28-2009, 05:07 PM
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
This is about an exhibit which was introduced as evidence (you must have seen such things on Perry Mason) and has nothing to do with anyone lying or not. Unless you are saying that Berenberg Gossler was lying when he accepted in court that the schoolbooks showed that AN studied German? Surely not, since you normally extol the veracity of his statements as if your life depended on them.
I only stick with Olga Alexandrovna, Gilliard, Gibbes, Lili Dehn and Sophie books. Those accounts are most important because they are witnesses and know what OTMA studied and did during their lives.

Quote:
Then why can't you tell the difference? You also seem confused as to what is considered hearsay so here is a link to a legal dictionary. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay Exhibits introduced as evidence are NOT hearsay.

You and AWF are both refusing to accept that the Court Records show that GD Anastasia's schoolbooks were presented in evidence during the trials. You are also refusing to accept that BOTH sides were happy to accept their provenance. You similarly refuse to accept that the books show she studied German. As all of this is in the court records which have to be confirmed by both sets of lawyers and the judges, it is up to you two to PROVE that those records are inaccurate, not for us to prove that they are accurate. Or are you saying that all the lawyers and the various sets of judges were lying?
The difference between a FACT and an OPINION! Hearsay is not evidence at all, it's accounts that have not been proven true. It is also something that has yet to have been backed up by evidence and it's pure speculation. A fact: is defined as something that is true, something that actually exists, or something having objective reality that can be verified according to an established standard of evaluation.
An opinion is a person's ideas and thoughts towards something which it is either impossible to verify the truth of, or the truth of which is thought unimportant to the person.


Quote:
It has been said that Chat and I only press this point because we are trying to show that AA was AN. (I won't even bother to point out that it is AWF who keeps dragging AA into this debate - or indeed just about every debate.) How about we are pressing it because it is a FACT, regardless of who AA was. In fact her identity could be considered irrelevant. You are trying to twist the facts because they may (and it is only "may", not "do" since as I have said AA's identity actually could be considered of no relevance to this point) contradict your theory. It is like saying night is day or black is white. AE, you can say until you are blue in the face that there is no proof Anastasia had any German lessons but the facts patently contradict you.

It's actually you, Bear and ChatNoir who are trying to bring up AA again. Ferrymansdaughter, you started discussing about AA when you mentioned the German court trials. In all of my resources I NEVER mentioned AA because she had NOTHING to do with the life of the Romanovs. I never would get any resources from her. Well, when you mentioned AA, it seems to me like you're trying to prove that she is Anastasia. There wouldn't be any other reason why you're mentioning AA in the discussion about Anastasia knowing German.
Quote:

I have to say I wonder why you get so het up and fly in the face of the obvious which is actually rather ridiculous. If you are so confident you are right, why can't you say "yes AN did study German but it doesn't mean she and AA were the same person."?
You're trying to make me believe in something that is not even true. Anastasia's own relatives and tutors stated that Anastasia did not study German. I would never accuse those people of being liars because they are the ones who told the whole accounts and truths of the imperial family. That would be very wrong and false to disrespect these people.
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  #278  
Old 01-28-2009, 06:02 PM
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I still maintain that the girls were exposed to German through lessons, the older more than the younger ones, but it was not used in the family like Russian, English and French, and that they never actually learned it on a functional basis, did not speak it or use it.
Then, again, how do you explain Tatiana's letter? And the testimony from the people who said that "they spoke it badly"?
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  #279  
Old 01-28-2009, 06:05 PM
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Closed for moderator review, unsurprisingly.
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  #280  
Old 01-29-2009, 04:58 AM
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This thread will remain closed.

Things have become too weird even by Russian Forum standards and we are now in the red zone: public and private accusations that certain members are one and the same, members in cheer squad mode posting on behalf of other members (aren't they capable of posting themselves?), and a continuation of the same tired and boring argumentative posting style that we endured for far too long in the Anna Anderson was/was not Anastasia thread.

We understand this "debate", for want of a better word, has been waged over several internet sites and forums for some time, but after a year of hosting it here at TRF it's wearing a bit thin.

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