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  #241  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
Let me see if I have all of this right.

AWF claims Maria and Anastasia never had German lessons

AWF admits that Olga and Tatiana did have German lessons.
AWF? No, Sophie B. Among many other posts in this thread you have chosen to ignore, that one was a quote from Sophie B. in her book

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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
"The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna" and it states that Maria, Anastasia and Alexei had NO knowledge of German. They did NOT study German.
Yeah this book!

Quote:
To what degree each read or spoke German by July of 1918 is unknown by those who were not present.
Then why not listen to those who were? We have given you many quotes.


Quote:
AWF's, again, assumes: >>The people who claim to hear Alix speak in German were the people who didn't know any English, only Russian that's why they accused her of speaking German to her daughters during WWI.<<
Did you read the quote I posted by Lili Dehn, saying exactly this happened when they worked at the hospital? Soldiers heard her speaking English to her daughters and ladies in waiting and broadcast around that they were 'speaking German.'

The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

Alexandra Feodorovna and Romanov Russia, The Real Tsaritsa witten by Lili Dehn - Part One - Old Russia - Chapter VI

Quote:
I believe that is all Chat is posting.



Seems simple enough to me.

AGRBear
I don't believe that is all he's getting at, or you. If either of you cared about languages other than OTMA and German, you'd discuss other topics, such as the ones I've posted about the Tsar. But no, it's always about did the girls know German, and yes, that ties directly to AA, deny it or not.
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  #242  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:29 PM
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Bear, these are NOT my claims. These are FACTS. I already told you where I got all the resources from. You continue to ignore my information and say that it is what I assume and a claim. Those are facts, NOT opinions and I backed them up.
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  #243  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:40 PM
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French was indeed a language of the court as much as Russian, but that does not mean that nobody at court would bother to learn German.

That German was a normal part of upper class Russian education does not mean that the imperial children learned it, but it would make it more surprising if they didn't. In any case, Tian provides a letter from Tatiana to her friend Gretchen (just out of interest, who was Gretchen exactly?) dated 1st January 1909 and so written when Tatiana was 11, in what looks to me like fairly basic but still perfectly decent German.

Lili Dehn, Pierre Gillard and Anna Vyrubova, writing in the early 1920s (apologies, I assumed their books were a few years later in date) would be concerned to show that Alexandra in particular had not been pro-German during the recent war, and so my point about playing down any 'German-ness' remains valid. As it happens I wrote an academic article some years ago on the deprivation of the British titles of the Dukes of Coburg, Cumberland and Brunswick. Someone found for me an article published in Germany in 1922 which sets out to demonstrate that the Duke of Coburg, born Charles Edward, Duke of Albany (he was the posthumous son of Queen Victoria's haemophiliac son Leopold) was a thoroughly loyal German throughout WW1. Coburg was, of course, a first cousin of Alexandra, and reading this piece, which someone translated for me, one can wonder whether the author doth in fact protest a little too much. According to Coburg's sister, Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, he told her as the war was breaking out that he would have much preferred to have joined the British army, and presumably the truth was that he served in the German army against his native country somewhat reluctantly and because it was unavoidable.

Of course, the point Olga Alexandrovna was making was that someone who spoke only German could not possibly be her niece. She says that German was never 'used' within the family circle, instead Russian and English, so she would expect a genuine Anastasia, a miraculous survivor of Ekaterinburg, to speak to her in one or the other, or possibly both. This is not inconsistent with Anastasia (the real Anastasia, who was murdered at Ekaterinburg with the rest), to have had lessons in German (and made little progress with it).
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  #244  
Old 01-24-2009, 02:14 PM
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Anna Anderson has been conclusively proved a fraud from two different directions (her own DNA plus the recent discoveries near Ekaterinburg). What I find interesting about her is that quite a number of people who knew the real Anastasia (such as Lili Dehn and Sigismund of Prussia) were prepared to believe that she was genuine.

That Peter Kurth was making use of the German exercise books to support his view that Anna Anderson was Anastasia does not mean that the exercise books themselves were not genuine (has it ever been suggested that they were fakes?) That the real Anastasia did have German lessons does not support Anna Anderson's claims, which are now entirely discredited.
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  #245  
Old 01-24-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalafrana View Post
In any case, Tian provides a letter from Tatiana to her friend Gretchen (just out of interest, who was Gretchen exactly?) dated 1st January 1909 and so written when Tatiana was 11, in what looks to me like fairly basic but still perfectly decent German.
Gretchen was Alexandra's friend from Darmstadt. They corresponded regurarly up until the war.

On the Alexander Palace web site there are Maria's expenses from year 1910. She had 18 monthly German lessons that year by mr Kleikenburg.
Expenses of Grand Duchess Maria - Alexander Palace Time Machine
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  #246  
Old 01-24-2009, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalafrana View Post
Lili Dehn, Pierre Gillard and Anna Vyrubova, writing in the early 1920s (apologies, I assumed their books were a few years later in date) would be concerned to show that Alexandra in particular had not been pro-German during the recent war, and so my point about playing down any 'German-ness' remains valid.
All languages aside, yes her friends did try to clear her name, and felt it their duty to do so since she was not around to do it for herself. It bothered them she was going to be remembered as a "German spy" or a 'mistress of Rasputin' or even worse 'gave her daughters to Rasputin.'

Quote:
As it happens I wrote an academic article some years ago on the deprivation of the British titles of the Dukes of Coburg, Cumberland and Brunswick. Someone found for me an article published in Germany in 1922 which sets out to demonstrate that the Duke of Coburg, born Charles Edward, Duke of Albany (he was the posthumous son of Queen Victoria's haemophiliac son Leopold) was a thoroughly loyal German throughout WW1. Coburg was, of course, a first cousin of Alexandra, and reading this piece, which someone translated for me, one can wonder whether the author doth in fact protest a little too much. According to Coburg's sister, Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, he told her as the war was breaking out that he would have much preferred to have joined the British army, and presumably the truth was that he served in the German army against his native country somewhat reluctantly and because it was unavoidable.
Thanks, that's interesting. It was even worse to have been accused of being pro German during WWII or the Nazi era, and what a shame severall of Wilhelm's sons were.

Quote:
Of course, the point Olga Alexandrovna was making was that someone who spoke only German could not possibly be her niece. She says that German was never 'used' within the family circle, instead Russian and English, so she would expect a genuine Anastasia, a miraculous survivor of Ekaterinburg, to speak to her in one or the other, or possibly both. This is not inconsistent with Anastasia (the real Anastasia, who was murdered at Ekaterinburg with the rest), to have had lessons in German (and made little progress with it).
I agree, but unfortunately the strong supporters of AA have and still do seem to exaggerate AN's German ability or try to latch onto any minuscule evidence she was at least exposed to it at all that 'maybe' this meant AA could have been AN, speaking German. But of course all reality suggests that a real AN would have chosen Russian or English, especially to Olga, a native Russian speaker. Sadly, AA supporters also accuse Olga of lying to deny her 'niece.' I was hoping after the final DNA results, this woman's name, and Gilliard, could finally be cleared of being called 'liars' who 'denied her for money', but that is still not happening in some circles. (and most of those defending AN knowing German in this thread are those who constantly defend AA, or some escape by AN, and have for years)
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  #247  
Old 01-24-2009, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Bear, these are NOT my claims. These are FACTS. I already told you where I got all the resources from. You continue to ignore my information and say that it is what I assume and a claim. Those are facts, NOT opinions and I backed them up.
That's right, they came from books and were quotes of those who knew the family. She accused me of making those statements too, saying 'AWF claims' but they were from books.I guess bear can't stand it when I use books because she tries to say I don't, so she still has to try to say I made it up, but I didn't. Like you said they are FACTS but those who don't want to believe them ignore them and tell their own story.
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  #248  
Old 01-24-2009, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
That's right, they came from books and were quotes of those who knew the family. She accused me of making those statements too, saying 'AWF claims' but they were from books.I guess bear can't stand it when I use books because she tries to say I don't, so she still has to try to say I made it up, but I didn't. Like you said they are FACTS but those who don't want to believe them ignore them and tell their own story.
It is very sad how Bear doesn't want to accept what came from actual books. Instead, she insists on believing that it is hearsay. Most of the time Bear makes up her claims instead of referencing them. She rather make up something she wants, instead of going by facts. She quoted my post and says you wrote it. It actually was me who wrote the post, not AWF.
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  #249  
Old 01-25-2009, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
It is very sad how Bear doesn't want to accept what came from actual books. Instead, she insists on believing that it is hearsay. Most of the time Bear makes up her claims instead of referencing them. She rather make up something she wants, instead of going by facts. She quoted my post and says you wrote it. It actually was me who wrote the post, not AWF.
No Bear doesn't. Bear has, on her website insisted on references. We're a little more loose on this forum. But Bear has many, many references at her finger tips that she has cited, yet she has asked, and it puzzles me, why you and AWF insist that nobody spoke German. Nobody says that becuase AA spoke German that AN did. That's beside the point. What is the reasoning behind this vehement denial?
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  #250  
Old 01-25-2009, 08:41 AM
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Turning now to a less controversial language than German, did Olga Alexandrovna need to learn Danish when she settled in Denmark with her family?

Of course, Olga was 14 years younger than Nicholas, but if she already spoke Danish when she went to Denmark, this would suggest that her older siblings would also have learned Danish from their mother.
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  #251  
Old 01-25-2009, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
No Bear doesn't. Bear has, on her website insisted on references. We're a little more loose on this forum. But Bear has many, many references at her finger tips that she has cited, yet she has asked, and it puzzles me, why you and AWF insist that nobody spoke German. Nobody says that becuase AA spoke German that AN did. That's beside the point.
Russophile.
Bear was saying the information in my posts were only my claims and personal beliefs. She didn't post resources in her latest post in this thread. However, they were not my own claims, these are facts and resources that came from Pierre Gilliard, Lili Dehn, and Sophie Buxhoeveden. I use resources from only them. She denies that, and tries to say that they are my "claims" after I labled about who and where the resources came from. While I was reading Bear's posts she mentioned AA 's court trial, and it seems she is saying that Anastasia knew German because of AA.

Quote:
What is the reasoning behind this vehement denial?
Vehement denial! It's the truth that OTMA did not use German. I'm proving something that's not true.I posted evidence from Gilliard and Lili Dehn to prove that they didn't use German. I'm only posting the truth and that's a fact.
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  #252  
Old 01-25-2009, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Russophile.
Bear was saying the information in my posts were only my claims and personal beliefs. She didn't post resources in her latest post in this thread. However, they were not my own claims, these are facts and resources that came from Pierre Gilliard, Lili Dehn, and Sophie Buxhoeveden. I use resources from only them. She denies that, and tries to say that they are my "claims" after I labled about who and where the resources came from. While I was reading Bear's posts she mentioned AA 's court trial, and it seems she is saying that Anastasia knew German because of AA.
Anastasia Evidence and I have given quotes for everything posted. Go back and check through the thread if you don't believe it. The only time things have been mentioned without their sources is because they've been repeated a second or third time, since they clearly were ignored the first time, but if you look back you'll see every one of the quotes came from a book. Bear just ignores what she doesn't want to see like she ignores the reality that the family is all accounted for now and the mystery is over.

Sorry, but it's hard for me to accept that this 'did AN know German' thing has nothing to do with AA when the main people who keep pressing it is a literal who's who of AA/pro claimant posters with long histories of AA support (Russo, Ferrymans, Chat, Bear)


Quote:
Vehement denial! It's the truth that OTMA did not use German. I'm proving something that's not true.I posted evidence from Gilliard and Lili Dehn to prove that they didn't use German. I'm only posting the truth and that's a fact.
They did not use German. They were exposed to it but never learned it, never used it, and this is why so many people say they didn't know it at all. Even those who spent a lot of time with the family still report they knew no German, so obviously, even if they had lessons, it was never a factor and never used since many of those around them say they never heard it from the family. This proves that it was not used to any degree that it would have been noticed by anyone around them.
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  #253  
Old 01-25-2009, 09:06 PM
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[quote=Anna was Franziska;884540]Anastasia Evidence and I have given quotes for everything posted. Go back and check through the thread if you don't believe it. The only time things have been mentioned without their sources is because they've been repeated a second or third time, since they clearly were ignored the first time, but if you look back you'll see every one of the quotes came from a book.
Quote:
Bear just ignores what she doesn't want to see like she ignores the reality that the family is all accounted for now and the mystery is over.
That's true. Bear knows that the information came out of the books, she just wants to make it not true, by saying that I "claimed it myself". Bear doesn't think the mystery is over she says it's still an mystery. She denies the Romanov bones discovered in 2007.

Quote:
Sorry, but it's hard for me to accept that this 'did AN know German' thing has nothing to do with AA when the main people who keep pressing it is a literal who's who of AA/pro claimant posters with long histories of AA support (Russo, Ferrymans, Chat, Bear)
It does, if not why do Bear, and Chat continue to mention AA in your posts?
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  #254  
Old 01-25-2009, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kalafrana View Post
Turning now to a less controversial language than German, did Olga Alexandrovna need to learn Danish when she settled in Denmark with her family?

Of course, Olga was 14 years younger than Nicholas, but if she already spoke Danish when she went to Denmark, this would suggest that her older siblings would also have learned Danish from their mother.
I found this snippet in FOTR:

He (Nicholas) had a passion for history; spoke Russian, French, German, Danish and English.

So it would not be unrealistic to assume that his siblings also knew at least some Danish.
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  #255  
Old 01-25-2009, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
They did not use German. They were exposed to it but never learned it, never used it, and this is why so many people say they didn't know it at all.
But, if they never used it, why would Gibbes say that they "spoke it badly"? And what about Kobylinski's testimony about Olga, saying that she "spoke German badly"? Surely the girls must have used German at one point or another.
And if you want to use that old argument that "studying a language does not mean that you learn it", I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you. Remember, you are the one insisting on me being a native speaker of English, in spite of me only having had 5 years of lessons in a foreign country.
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  #256  
Old 01-25-2009, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
It does, if not why do Bear, and Chat continue to mention AA in your posts?
Pardon me, but if you go back in this thread, you will clearly see that AA was brought into this debate by you and AWF.
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  #257  
Old 01-25-2009, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Pardon me, but if you go back in this thread, you will clearly see that AA was brought into this debate by you and AWF.
But it's the very fact that you and the other AA supporters endlessly defend the German thing that anyone who knows your history knows the reason behind it, which is AA. You don't even have to mention her name, it's as obvious as J Kendrick and the hemophilia thing, why else does he argue it?

About Olga and Danish, here's a video of her life, maybe there's some info in it about her languages. I've watched it before, and her daughters in law spoke Danish and had to be translated, so probably her sons did too, and likely her, especially after living there for so long.

part 1

GUBA - Olga - The Last Grand Duchess of Russia. (Part 1 of 2)


part 2

GUBA - Olga - The Last Grand Duchess of Russia. (Part 2 of 2)

This is a very good show, but it's about 20-30 minutes long (each) so make sure you have the time to spare before you start.
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  #258  
Old 01-25-2009, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
But it's the very fact that you and the other AA supporters endlessly defend the German thing that anyone who knows your history knows the reason behind it, which is AA.
I think that the reason for defending the "German thing", is because all the Grand Duchesses DID learn German, and spoke it, too, if not too well. Why AA has to be implicated, is a mystery to me.
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  #259  
Old 01-26-2009, 11:53 AM
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I think that the reason for defending the "German thing", is because all the Grand Duchesses DID learn German, and spoke it, too, if not too well.
They did NOT speak it or use it. other than in lessons. There are many witnesses to this and many who said they never knew it at all because it was such a non factor and never used.


Quote:
Why AA has to be implicated, is a mystery to me.
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  #260  
Old 01-26-2009, 01:23 PM
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They did NOT speak it or use it.
Then, again, how could Kobylinski and Gibbes state that they spoke it badly?
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