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  #201  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:06 PM
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Just because something is in a 'court record' does NOT- repeat NOT NOT- necessarily make it a 'fact.' People lie in court all the time. I have been lied on in court. People remember things incorrectly and make human errors. So no, recording what they said in court does not at all make what they said a fact.

Let's go through this one more time- I've been trying to get this through to Chat and bear for many years now-

Just because someone says something, even in court, does not make it a 'fact.' Just because you can quote page XXX in book Y does not necessarily mean what is written or quoted is a 'fact.'

Here's the difference- it's a FACT that Joe said Bill robbed the store. But this does NOT make it a fact that Bill robbed the store. See? It may be a fact somebody said something on a certain day and it's recorded, but this does not automatically qualify what they said as a fact in itself. That is the difference. You and bear quote a lot of things as 'facts' that are just word of mouth or hearsay with names and dates, and it in no way verifies the person's statements as being true facts.

One more time- a 'fact' that someone said something does NOT mean what they said is always a 'fact.'
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  #202  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
Okay I'm getting just a tad fed up with this. This is NOT hearsay; we know about these books from the COURT RECORDS. I don't know how many more times to say this but maybe one of the Mods could explain to you that t if the court records and newspaper accounts of those trials say that these books were entered into evidence, then they DO exist.
Ferrymansdaughter, if there are any photos of these 'German schoolbooks" why can't you show me the photos of them? At least, show the photographs of the "german court records"!You keep on saying that they did have the girl's books in German. Without strong evidence your speculation can't be proven. I don't believe it, because there's no proof of it at all. Gilliard himself said that the girls did NOT know German. Therefore, there wouldn't be any books that the girls wrote in German. This speculation is mentioned because of Anna Anderson. You're only saying that OTMA wrote in German well, because Anna Anderson knew German.The court is not always accurate- sometimes they can be mislead and listen, and believe others who don't use evidence. Until you have evidence to back that up, that is hearsay. Why take what the court says rather than what OTMA's tutors say? It is hearsay because you're saying that the court said they spoke German and not even providing that with evidence to back it up. Show me these so called "German court records" then?

Obviously, you don't know what evidence is.

As I've said before since OTMA did not learn or speak German and they didn't write in German. Why don't any of you ever post evidence from Gilliard, Gibbes, Olga Alexandrovna, or Sophie the people who ACTUALLY knew OTMA? It's always something from Anna Anderson or Peter Kurth the people who didn’t know any of OTMA. The best evidence to prove the languages that OTMA spoke would be resources from OTMA's tutors. I haven't seen you prove anything.

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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Just because something is in a 'court record' does NOT- repeat NOT NOT- necessarily make it a 'fact.' People lie in court all the time. I have been lied on in court. People remember things incorrectly and make human errors. So no, recording what they said in court does not at all make what they said a fact.

Let's go through this one more time- I've been trying to get this through to you and bear for many years now-

Just because someone says something, even in court, does not make it a 'fact.' Just because you can quote page XXX in book Y does not necessarily mean what is written or quoted is a 'fact.'

One more time- a 'fact' that someone said something does NOT mean what they said is always a 'fact.'
Exactly! It's quite said people don't understand the difference between a fact and opinion. Even a second grader can tell the difference between a fact and opinion. Without the exact German court papers the “hearsay” ChatNoir and Ferrymansdaughter says can NOT be proven true.
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  #203  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:13 PM
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And who is the "you" that you keep referring to?

Anyway, the notebooks from the Grand Duchesses did end up in the German court, no doubt about that. Unless you accuse the judges of lying also?
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  #204  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Why don't any of you ever post evidence from Gilliard, Gibbes, Olga Alexandrovna, or Sophie the people who ACTUALLY knew OTMA? It's always something from Anna Anderson or Peter Kurth.
As far as I remember, I just posted a quote from Gibbes where he stated that "The Grand Duchesses spoke German badly."
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  #205  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:16 PM
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Duh indeed. In that case why did you mention Americans at all? Russians would have far more in common with their European neighbours than with Americans who didn't learn any languages and some of whom still don't appear to. Your viewpoint of Eastern Europe at the beginning of the 20th century seems rather bizarre to say the least. The Bolsheviks weren't all the utter ignoramuses you seem to think they were and they didn't all come from dirt poor backgrounds either. Revolutionaries come from all sorts of backgrounds. I'm not saying that everyone in Ekaterinburg was bilingual but don't forget that some of the guards weren't even Russian!

And yet, they still had to take the letters written in foreign languages to an official in town for translation.

I am in no way insulting people for not knowing the difference between languages. I am not good at it myself! It does not make you an ignoramus! The remote areas of Russia were not as exposed to languages as other places in Russia and Europe, and even if they were the people had no reason to learn the foreigners' languages. But I am sorry I do believe it is incredibly likely that the Bolsheviks in the house could not tell the difference between English and German,and only assumed it was German due to the stories of her being a "German woman/spy". Here is a perfect example of this, from Lili Dehn's book:

The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

Alexandra Feodorovna and Romanov Russia, The Real Tsaritsa witten by Lili Dehn - Part One - Old Russia - Chapter VI

It DID happen, and it's very probable this was the case in Ekaterinburg since everyone who knew the family- and even Col. Kobylinski who was with them the whole time at Tobolsk- all stated they had never heard the family use any German. I am also aware some of the Bolshies were from other countries, but this also does not mean they would be experts in distinguishing English from German. And it never ceases to amaze me that it's the supporters of AA who continue to demand that the girls had some German knowledge that all who knew them said they did not have, and of course, whether it is admitted or not, IS the reason this argument developed and persisted in such a way. A person asked a simple question- did Alexandra ever learn Russian- and it was taken over by did Anastasia know German (obviously, because AA did) Any attempt made by me in this thread to discuss anything related to languages other than the IF children and German has been completely ignored. That should show you right there it's a fight over if AN knew German or not, with the indirect reason AA.
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  #206  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:34 PM
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I simply cannot understand this argument about the Grand Duchesses' understanding of German. What difference does it make if they spoke German badly? And French not too well? And good English and Russian?
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  #207  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
And who is the "you" that you keep referring to?

Anyway, the notebooks from the Grand Duchesses did end up in the German court, no doubt about that. Unless you accuse the judges of lying also?
ChatNoir, all I'm saying is that without the "German papers" or any photos of these so called "German school books" this hearsay can't be proven.
Quote:

As far as I remember, I just posted a quote from Gibbes where he stated that "The Grand Duchesses spoke German badly."
I'm replying to what Ferrymansdaughter said to me...I quoted her...

Yes, ChatNoir the girls barely knew any German. But, it seems that you are saying the girls spoke German because you keep on mentioning those "German schoolbooks".
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  #208  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:36 PM
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And it never ceases to amaze me that it's the supporters of AA who continue to demand that the girls had some German knowledge that all who knew them said they did not have,
Do you mean that Gibbes was also lying?
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  #209  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
I simply cannot understand this argument about the Grand Duchesses' understanding of German. What difference does it make if they spoke German badly? And French not too well? And good English and Russian?
ChatNoir, you are right. That's why we should just let the accounts and memiors from Gilliard answer those questions. He explains to use very well, and clearly what languages OTMA spoke fluently and poorly. Gilliard stated that the girls did not know German. There shouldn't be any arguments. We never met any of OTMA, and didn't speak to any of them. So, we can't say they spoke German unless we have evidence that they did from someone who knew the Imperial family.All we can just look at is their tutors and family memoirs.
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  #210  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:44 PM
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What about Alexandra's entry in her diary: "Today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."?
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  #211  
Old 01-23-2009, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
ChatNoir, all I'm saying is that without the "German papers" or any photos of these so called "German school books" this hearsay can't be proven.
I think there is a difference between court records and hearsay, don't you think?
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  #212  
Old 01-23-2009, 06:50 PM
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What about Alexandra's entry in her diary: "Today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."?
What date and year was this written in?
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  #213  
Old 01-23-2009, 06:59 PM
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What date and year was this writen in?
I am at work, and do not have my books with me. But I do believe this is from the Tobolsk period. I noticed that Peter Kurth mentioned that German lessons in Tobolsk were given by Alexandra or Tatiana. Maybe Alexandra referred to helping Tatiana in giving lessons.
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  #214  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:25 PM
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The thing Chat doesn't get is, even if someone took a few lessons, they did not learn the language and therefore did not speak it. The issue is, did they speak it,what languages did the family speak. The answer is Russian, English, French. Nicholas could read Danish but not speak it. Alexandra was fluent in German but didn't use it. The others may have studied it but did not speak it, did not use it. Nicholas studied it for years and still didn't know it well. As Marengo brought up too, because of WWI, all things German were out of favor, so it wasn't a priority to learn or know the language, and as we've discussed before, Alexandra's German relatives, even Kaiser Wilhelm, spoke and wrote to the family in English, meaning even before the war, it was never a priority to learn. They also had no German servants. So the answer is, no, the family did not SPEAK German, they did not use it. Numerous people who knew them well tell us this, it cannot be denied.
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  #215  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:33 PM
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My family does not speak any German.
We never used it at home.
Still I speak German.
And as Gibbes said: They spoke good English and French, but bad German.
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  #216  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:41 PM
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That means they were not good at it, it didn't mean they went around speaking it badly! We have given you many, many quotes of how the family did not use German. Some say they didn't know it at all, and it's not a bit of wonder they said that since it was never used and they never were heard to use it. The Tsar's own sister said "German was never used by the family." Anastasia Evidence and I have posted many quotes by many people on the previous pages which you have ignored.
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  #217  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:54 PM
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All we are trying to show here, is what languages the IF spoke. It seems that Alexandra spoke German, English, French and Russian. Nicholas spoke Russian, English, French and at least some German. The Grand Duchesses spoke Russian, English, French (good, according to Gibbes, not so good, according to Gilliard) and bad German. Alexis spoke Russian, English and French.
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  #218  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:55 PM
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I think there is a difference between court records and hearsay, don't you think?
Well, it depends. There is a difference. But, many people can say that in court there are German schoolbooks but, without the exact German court papers or photos that claim can not be proven true. That is nothing more than speculation.

Quote:
Do you mean that Gibbes was also lying?
Now, I know Gibbes didn't say the girls knew German.
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  #219  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
That means they were not good at it, it didn't mean they went around speaking it badly! We have given you many, many quotes of how the family did not use German. Some say they didn't know it at all, and it's not a bit of wonder they said that since it was never used and they never were heard to use it. The Tsar's own sister said "German was never used by the family." Anastasia Evidence and I have posted many quotes by many people on the previous pages which you have ignored.
Gilliard himself, said that the girls and Alix never uttered a word in German. You can say you studied German, but that doesn't really mean you speak it fluently. That's the same thing with OTMA, they spoke to Russian to their father and Alexei. English to their mother. French to their tutor Gilliard. Why do you ignore our evidence? We are in circles again! Only Tatiana and Olga had lessons in German at Yakateringburg but they had very little knowledge of German. German was a very difficult language for them, they didn't use.
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  #220  
Old 01-23-2009, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
My family does not speak any German.
We never used it at home.
Still I speak German.
And as Gibbes said: They spoke good English and French, but bad German.
How many years have you known German?
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