Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Status
Not open for further replies.
A general question: Is it really likely that anyone could have escaped from a cellar full of soldiers firing volleys of bullets and wielding bayonets with murderous intent?
 
Warren said:
A general question: Is it really likely that anyone could have escaped from a cellar full of soldiers firing volleys of bullets and wielding bayonets with murderous intent?
Click to expand...
99.99% they did not, but until the bodies are found there will always be speculation
 
I'm one of these crazy creatures that believes that someone could have survived this awful night of 1918 (but I think that THERE WAS a massacre without any doubt and that the bones found at the Pig's Meadow ARE , at least in part, those of the Imperial Family)...However, I think that the link that Queenofsheba posted (thank, by the way, Queen! :flowers: ) is...how I can said it? a little ridicoulous.

The pics that "Alex of Denmark" compares- those of his family- with the ones of the Romanovs shows NO ressemblance. Not at all. Heino Tammet WAS similar to Alexei . You may believe in his claim or not, but he is similar...But, the woman that "Alex of Denmark" claims it's Alix of Hesse...well...with all my good will, I can't see ressemblance at all. Same for "Anastasia" and "Alexei". The only one who was very similar to Prince Eitel (Wilhelm II's son) was "Alex of Denmark"'s grandfather.

I found this site very similar to another by the family Veres..I can't remember the link, but I think that it was in the links place of the www.romanov-memorial.com

Vanesa.
 
queenofsheba said:
Hi Everyone,

Adding onto the heated discussion, I found this website today:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexofdenmark/

I am not sure if anyone has already posted this web address. Please excuse me if I am repeating something that has already been done!

Enjoy.
Click to expand...
I was just now reading the contents of that website. And to be perfectly honest, its absolutely ridiculous!!! the person who wrote all that stuff actually believes that the reason the events leading up to the deaths of the Imperial Family happened is because the country lost it's godliness. And most of all, whom ever this person is, also believes that their family are the surviving members of the Imperial family (again ridiculous, to me of course).

Tsar Nicholas 2nd was the Emperor and spiritual Christian Orthodox leader of Russia. Because of his removal, by evil forces in 1918, I believe that Russia has lost its spiritual compass. Russia therefor has been left to wander politically and spiritually, like any other country, without the blessings and guidance of our Lord Jesus Christ. This has led Russia into chaos and the wanton murder of its people by leaders like the madman and murderer Stalin. The re-establishment of the Romanov Tsarist throne is necessary for the sanctification and healing of Russia and its people.
Click to expand...

Anyways, since I unfortunately haven't been keeping up with this thread, I just have one question and this might actually be way out of left field but... I was recently watching this show (a rerun, which I've already watch), that people believe that if anyone survived the massacre that killed the family, it would be Marie and Alexis, right. Well, my question is that even IF Alexis didn't die during the shooting round, what makes people believe he would have lived much longer afterwards? I mean he had hemophilia right. Even the smallest injury would have been life threatening. And lets say that for some miraculous reason he wasn't shot (which of course seems doubtful in the least), at the time most hemophiliacs usually didn't live to see their 30th birthdays. So why all the rumors? Why Alexis?
 
Hemophiliacs can live old, if they take care of themselves and are aware of all the dangers surrounding them. They can marry and have children.
Sometimes, in their 30s, men are still light-headed, and specially when they've had a very protective childhood.

But in the case of the Romanov, we know for sure that Alexei had a major crisis while in Toblosk and that he was really not well. So his survival is highly hypothetical.

But of course this is only my opinion.

:flowers:
 
Val3275 said:
Hemophiliacs can live old, if they take care of themselves and are aware of all the dangers surrounding them. They can marry and have children.
Sometimes, in their 30s, men are still light-headed, and specially when they've had a very protective childhood.
Click to expand...
I was thinking more about the time period. As I understand it hemophiliacs during the early part of the 20th century normally didn't live long enough to reach their 30th Birthdays. Now a days, hemophiliacs live long normal lives just like the rest of us, but this last fact isn't really the point I suppose.
 
There is some more information (for Royalty with Haemophilia) in this thread in the Royal Genealogy Subforum
 
Princess_Nessy said:
Hi everyone, I've always been fascinated by this family. What do you all think about this article?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060930/ca_pr_on_na/missing_czarevitch

Makes me wonder!
Click to expand...

I've been following it off and on since an article appeared in a local magazine in 1994, I believe. Anyway, I thought that the DNA was tested and it turned out he was not who he claimed to be? There were discussions involving Kendrick and others on atr a few years back. You can search the google group archives for some interesting discourse.

Sean.~
 
Interestingly enough the Article says the DNA Results were never made public.
 
Princess_Nessy said:
Hi everyone, I've always been fascinated by this family. What do you all think about this article?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060930/ca_pr_on_na/missing_czarevitch

Makes me wonder!
Click to expand...

There has been so many pretenders to so many royal families that met their end under tragic circumstances! :rolleyes: The article just add up to the legends of missing heirs, but it's too much of a what if speculation. Good for a movie though.
 
Toledo said:
There has been so many pretenders to so many royal families that met their end under tragic circumstances! :rolleyes: The article just add up to the legends of missing heirs, but it's too much of a what if speculation. Good for a movie though.
Click to expand...

Well, if the tsarevitch survived, he must have lived somewhere under some name. Thus far, there is a possibility. But if this man really was it, he obviously did not want to take on any public role except writing some letters. He did not claim any possessions and he did not try to secure his oldest son's position - that's strange, IMHO. So I guess it's as one historian claims: he wasn't the tsarevitch.
 
As the great Helen Hayes said when playing Maria Feodorovna in the 1956 film "Anastasia", "The firing squad were such poor shots it's a wonder the revolution was successful". As much as we'd like there to be a chance of one of the Romanovs surviving, a murder like theirs was not only horrific but sadly very precise.
 
BeatrixFan said:
As the great Helen Hayes said when playing Maria Feodorovna in the 1956 film "Anastasia", "The firing squad were such poor shots it's a wonder the revolution was successful". As much as we'd like there to be a chance of one of the Romanovs surviving, a murder like theirs was not only horrific but sadly very precise.
Click to expand...

Yes, their assassination was horrific. I know this isn't going to be popular here, but we must also be cognizant of the fact that policies of the Tsarist regime were also horrific. Nicholas and Alexandra were poor rulers & had many a chance to reform, but failed to do so. Given their track record, their fate was inevitable.
 
People seem to forget that for Alexei, as a hemophiliac, it would have been much harder to survive the shooting. Even if he had been wounded, he probably would have suffered an attack and died. And he was, obviously, heir to the Russian throne. Even in a remote place like Ekaterinburg, people would have recognized him, and especially because the family was in the town, people would definately recognize him. From what I've heard, the people in and around the town were very sympathetic to the family, and they must have known the risks in caring and keeping the heir to the Russian throne hidden in their homes.

Sadly, I don't think any of the family survived. The murders of the children was a very unnecessary crime, but I understand the risks to Lenin's regime, keeping at least the Tsar, Tsaritsa, their son and the Grand Duke Michael alive for monarchists to rally around. I just can't understand how he missed Grand Duke Kyril and his son, who would be, I guess, the next heirs. They were only in Finland...
 
Knowing Kyril's penchant for flying red flags over his home and ordering the soldiers guarding the empress and her children to disperse, it is not surprising that someone like him would manage to escape. He and his mother were very conniving and just drooled over the possibility that he would inherit the throne. I would not be surprised at all if he did not make some shady deal in order to escape the same fate as his cousins.
 
Toledo - it definately would make a good movie! The DNA results not being released is very intriguing... especially the letters from other royalty! Does anyone know of a good book to read? About the Romanovs?
 
I got into an arguement with my mother once because I was reading a book about the wiccan religion. I said "Well, I also read books about the last royal family of Russia but it doesn't make me the missing Grand Duchess!". She said "Yes it does!".
: ) That would make me almost 110 years old! Dang I look good for my age!
 
As for the Alexei claimants, including Heino Tammet whom some of you have mentioned above, their supporters all seem to try to pass off the same lame excuse. "They had an undescended testicle and a disease similar to hemophilia or lukemia, so they must be the Tsarevich Alexei!"
 
I agree with Charlottesville about Alexei claimants: all they have are lame excuses. Some of them bore absolutely no resemblance at all to the tsetsarevich.
 
Ritka said:
I agree with Charlottesville about Alexei claimants: all they have are lame excuses. Some of them bore absolutely no resemblance at all to the tsetsarevich.
Click to expand...
You know, I did once take Tammet very seriously, mostly due to the whole DNA thing and the tooth not being returned to the wife (the hairs of Anna Anderson were never returned to their suppliers either). But what the journalist John Kendrick claims to be evidence is EXACTLY the case with the Semenev claimant mentioned in the book "The Last Tsar" by Edvard Radzinsky.

1. undescended testicle- The case in both of these claimants
2. disease - S. died of disease "similar"to hemophilia,
Tammet from Luekimia.
3. knowledge of the Russian Imperial Court- Both had this as well

I'm not trying to offend anyone who believes in these claimants, I'm just trying to offer my opinion on why I don't find their evidence convincing, because it is the same in both cases. And obviously they can't BOTH be Alexei.

I think it's still more probable that Anna Anderson was Anastasia than ANY other claimant being authentic. DNA or no DNA, she had more evidence on her side that any other claimant and had people who were actually close to the "real" Anastasia on her side. That's not something any of those other claimants ever seemed to accomplish.
 
Earlier in this forum I posted articles regarding the potential surviving of Anastasia and Alexis and their hiding in Bulgaria. I posted pictures of Eleonora believed to be Anastasia. Now I am posting pictures of George believed to be Alexis. With a picture of Alexis himself.

Grand Duke Alexis --------------------------------------- George Pavlovich

GrandDukeAlexis.jpg
GeorgePavlovich.jpg
 
I don't think anyone survived. A). The Bolshevicks were too mean and too determined to let ANYONE survinve. B). About Alexei escaping. Even if he had managed to escape, he would've been badly wounded, and his hemophilia would have made it impossible for him to survive. C.) The bodies are missing, but the Bolshevicks probably had them destroyed to throw off the evidence.
 
About A RESCUE OF GD ANASTASIA (MARIA?) and CESAREVITCH ALEXEI

___By present time some serious researches (in Russia) confirm old hearsays that at execution of Imperial Family on the night of July, 17, 1918 one of Tsar’s daughters (Anastasia or Maria) and Cesarevitch Alexey could be rescued. This note is based on the following sources of the information:
___1. Materials of mass-media on a re-burial of the remains of Imperial Family 1998;
___2. Egorov G.B., Lysenko I.V., Petrov V.V., «Rescue of Cesarevitch Alexey» (Historical-crimanalreconstruction of execution of Imperial Family, the collection of articles), SPb, p."Blitz", 1998;
___3. «Secrets of Koptyakov’sroad», (the Information-analytical collection «Affair of belief»), М., p. "Kupina", 1998;
___4. E.Radzinsky, "Nikolay II", М., p. "Vagrius", 2003г.

___As it is known, remains of one of four imperial daughters and Cesarevitch Alexey have not been found out and have not been re-buriedin 1998.
___In known memoirs of participants of execution of Imperial Family and, in particular, in «Yurovsky’s Note» there was affirmed, that two corpses (one female and Alexey) they had burnt away (down).
___1. However, the researches of criminalists in 1990th years have shown that it was impossible completely to burn out corpses in those conditions even for 48 hours; besides, at a place of prospective burning there have been found (by commission of Kolchak in August 1918)the charred fasteners and other accessories, - only charred (not fused!), and this fact speaks that murderers could not provide the necessary high temperature for combustion of corpses. And bones in such conditions in general could not burn down.
___2. Second, Yurovskyhas brought to Moscow after execution only three corsets with sewed up brilliants in them (of three daughters), and nor Yurovsky, neither other participants of execution never mentioned about two other corsets (of Anastasiaor Maria and Alexey). Meanwhile it is impossible to suggest, that the Imperial Family "has not provided" such with corsets one of Great duchessesand Cesarevitch. The same concerns the small icons, presented to all members of Imperial Family by Grigory Rasputin- all known documents mentions these small icons which have found out on the bodies of Imperial family- but two icons are absent!
___3. Thirdly, it is known, that Yurovskywas fond of a photo and he was the professional photographer. It is possible to not doubt, that he wanted to photograph all corpses before a final burial place (in particular, for the report in Moscow). Meanwhile such photos are not present and Yurovsky (in his "Note") did not spoke about photos (nothing).
___Probably, namely a detection (fact) of absence of two corpses before a final burial place have given birth to "legend" about their burning and have forced to refuse of photographing.
___4. Fourthly, found by many researchers of last years the contradictions in memoirs of participants of a burial on July, 17, 1918 allow to assume, that they (participants) knew some secret and have been connected by "a plot of default (of silence)» about this secret. It is proved also, that known «Note of Yurovsky» substantially forges many known facts from other sources, and this falsification concerns secret of absence of two corpses and the emergencies which have happened on Koptyakov’s road.
___5. Fifthly, on the conclusion of experts and criminalists of 1990th years, the gunpowder (used in the weapon at execution on the night of July, 17) was such, that already less than in one minute in small cellar of Ipatiev’s house it was impossible to see anything in a smoke (all has clouded a smoke), and it prevented the exact shooting. Besides, there was no a doctor in the cellar, therefore indication of Yurovskyand others, that they «felt pulse» of all victims- it is not the proof of death. Besides, it is known, that some of "corpses" gave some attributes of a life already in the lorry, and drinking murderer Ermakov got into the lorry to finish off groaning victims by a bayonet of a rifle. Clearly, some “corpses” could "come to life”, to regain consciousness about a shock even in some hours, already in road. They could fall down off the lorry, and crawl away from road. They could be rescue by local people.
___Actually, careful (almost step by step) chronological analysis of all process of the lorry’s way and their burial places (on all known memoirs of participants and witnesses) has allowed to some authors to restore such picture of "loss" of two "corpses" (I quote under E.Radzinsky's book "Nikolay II", page 480):

___«It could take place only in one place when the lorry has approached on a railway box (number 184) where a watchwoman slept. The lorry has approached and has got stuck. Somewhere near to this box (Yurovsky wrote so) a military group (platoon) of Ermakov’s soldiers should wait for them. By then Ermakov himself should sleep by drunk dream … Yurovsky awakeshim … and they go to search for group of Ermakov. At this time a driver (Ljuhanov) goes to a box to awake the watchwoman- to ask her some water for the overheated motor.
So, a got stuck lorry and accompanying soldiers. How many? We shall tell, three or four… And twilight of a dawn.
Do you represent the situation?.. White armies attack and should take city (the far cannonade is already audible). It is appear the Soviet authority will fall and end for ever. Officers (White) will hang up everyone for the murder of Imperial Family - exactly! So, soldiers know and understand it. All the same, under a canvas the killed Imperial Family lies … And here, probably, they have heard … these groans from under a canvas …
***

___E.Radzinsky has found interesting acknowledgement (confirmation) of this version, analyzing the biography of Ljuhanov (his biography is well-known). It is known, that Ljuhanovwas very reticent and never liked to recollect the events on July, 16-18 1918г. On the other hand, it is known, that his wife was "steadfast" bolshevichka. And so, soon after those events she has divorced with him and never met any more. It is very probable, that Ljuhanovnevertheless has shared with her the secret of two "corpses" and she could not forgive to him this treachery of “bolsheviks’s affair”.
___Certainly, it is only a version. Probably, two "corpses" have fallen down off the lorry on road to the railway box, at the night, when the soldiersslept, or have missed it on one of road’s potholes at night.
___Anyhow, it is known also, that after returning to lorry Yurovsky has ordered almost to all soldiers to return back on foot, ostensibly (according on his "Note") as superfluous, - however whether will it be more correctly to assume, that after returning he has found out about absence of two "corpses" and has sent soldiersto comb all gone road for their searches?
***

You can look continuation of article and the full text under the reference:
http://www.petroprognoz.spb.ru/articles/26apr07-Anastasia-Alex.html

Boris Romanov
Saint Petersburg
Russia
___P.S. I am sorry for my imperfect English.

___You can see also my article “New book about Nicholas II”:

http://www.petroprognoz.spb.ru/articles/12apr7-NicholasII.html

___and much more details in my article “Emperor who knew the destiny” (in Russian):

http://www.petroprognoz.spb.ru/articles/Imperator-11-10-2006.html

___In Russian you can read also my article (the short script) "Nikolay's II Abdication":

http://www.petroprognoz.spb.ru/articles/8feb-Otrechenie.html
 
Given all the efforts that were made in 1918 to kill not only the Imperial family, but also Grand Duke Michael and other members of the family in Apalaievsk, I doubt that there is any chance that one of the children left Ekaterinbourg alive during that night.
Obviously Lenin's orders were to kill the whole family and, sadly, that is what happened.

 
The remains of the last missing Romanov children

If this story proves to be true,it would be fantastic indeed,but I'm cautious untill proven that it is not an extension of the silly season the month of august usually is.

Apparently Russian archeologist Sergej Porgorelov claims to have found the two missing members of the Imperial Family,the Heir Alexsey (Alyosha) and his sister Marie in the remains of a bonfire at the spot discribed by Yurovski were the bodies were first burned and then buried not far from it.All,except two of the bodies were found several years ago.

The top news headlines on current events from Yahoo! News

To be honest,there is only one organisation that I would instantly believe if they would come up with such a find.

Home
 
If the bones belong to Alexei and Marie, I hope, finally they will be buried as they deserve and finally rest in peace alongside their family.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

J
The "Sokolov Box": may or may not contain Imperial remains
Replies
19
Views
7K
scooter
scooter
AGRBear
  • Locked
2009 Identification of the remains found in July 2007
6 7 8
Replies
230
Views
37K
J Kendrick
J
ysbel
Identification of the Remains of the Romanov Family by DNA Analysis (Gill 94) (1994)
Replies
3
Views
6K
lexi4
L
Anna was Franziska
  • Locked
DNA and the law
4 5 6
Replies
153
Views
23K
Warren
Warren
ysbel
The Gill Paper: Establishing the Identity of Anna Anderson Manahan
Replies
26
Views
10K
Elspeth
E

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom