Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Seriously? I don't believe that there is a body missing. I think those remains are of Anastasia and Alexei. This will bring up more theories.

 

[AGRBear]

Sorry to spoil the fun for all conspiracy theorists/hack writers and pretending scientists but this much is for sure,there are sets of remains found,one a boy fitting Alyosha's age,the other a girl fitting Marie's age,that much is for certain.

Within the next thirty days an official statement will be released on the findings, until then,anything else is hasbash really,by those I mention at the start of this post.All will be revealed at this statement,all.

I do not care if it takes them thirty days or 100 days, I just want the truthful answers to all our questions, so, I can be a "happy camper". But if they continue to tell me that Alexei has a child size skull and was 4 feet 8 inches and that Maria was 5 feet 2 inches, then, I won't be a "happy camper".

Nor do I understand why it upsets people when we ask questions about the articles from Russia which gives us information. Surly we're not suppose to sit by and say nothing when we know that Maria wasn't 5 feet 2 inches.... Just as we know the Bolsheviks couldn't have built a wood pyre that would have provided enought heat, even with the gasoline, to have destroyed two bodies so only 44 fragments were left in two pits. This kind of information which contradicts Yurovsky's information about the burning of the bodies is directly from forensic scientists who's business it is to know. The height and age of the remains found in the mass grave is also from a highly regarded American forensic scientists Dr. Maples who believed Anastasia was not found in the mass grave.

As for conspiracies, there are plenty to go around by all involved, so, is there one in particular you'd like to discuss on a different thread?

AGRBear

 

[J Kendrick]

Sorry to spoil the fun for all conspiracy theorists/hack writers and pretending scientists but this much is for sure,there are sets of remains found,one a boy fitting Alyosha's age,the other a girl fitting Marie's age,that much is for certain.

Within the next thirty days an official statement will be released on the findings,until then,anything else is hasbash really,by those I mention at the start of this post.All will be revealed at this statement,all.

< ed Warren: getting personal >

But..

These latest developments have absolutely nothing at all to do with what you have now called ".. conspiracy theorists/hack writers and pretending scientists".

The leading spokesman for the current investigation, Nikolai Nevolin, has now announced publicly just this past week in the Russian-language edition of Interfax that they do *not* have enough bones for two... and this latest news now comes after the current DNA testing is almost complete.

Nevolin has also explained further that this is the reason why the investigation must now return to Koptyaki for even more searching yet again this summer.

Nikolai Nevolin's latest public statement now makes it clearly evident that those very first claims that had been made about the possible identity of those 44 bone fragments back in the earliest months of this current investigation are no longer a certainty as the DNA work now nears its completion.

JK

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Seriously? I don't believe that there is a body missing. I think those remains are of Anastasia and Alexei. This will bring up more theories.

Yes, and I could argue that Anastasia's body is not found because it cannot be found because her body or what is left of it is buried somewhere else entirely. So what?

These forums are about discussion, not about fixed opinions and the need to be a missionary for one's own ideas. IMHO, of course.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

And why do they keep insisting that it is Maria when Dr Maples and his team clearly demonstrated - in a number of ways - that the body which has now been assigned by the Russians to Anastasia - was too developed physically to have been her. According to the Russians' viewpoint, Anastasia had developed physically more than her older sister and we know that is not true.

Also, why did they say they estimated the body which they think is Alexei to be 4 ft 10 when we know he was almost the same height as his father - 5 foot 7? Of course it could just be an error -after all the Russian scientists originally - and for quite some time - identified the body of Demidova as being that of the Tsar. Identifying the gender of a body from the pelvis is a basic anthropological procedure and yet they made a very elementary mistake.

 

[BorisRom]

This history will never end

INTERFAX today:
http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=25134 (in Russian):
The Sverdlovsk area will finance new archeological works at a place of detection of " imperial remains "
Ekaterinburg. On June, 26th. InterFax - For research so-called "imperial remains" in Sverdlovsk area in 2008 from additional sources it will be allocated 5,2 million roubles.
1,3 million (from 5,2) will go for an ending of archeological excavations, - chairman of the government of region Victor Koksharov has informed "Interfax" on Thursday.
After the ending of all researches and after a final verdict of the State Office of Public Prosecutor of the Russian Federation the project of a memorial will be developed.
************************************************************************
My comment:
Necessity of NEW archeological works means, that the researches of so-called "Alexi/Maria's remains" have not allowed to draw final conclusions.

 

[bbb]

Bones said those of missing Romanovs - UPI.com

*quote from article

*a spokesman for the committee investigating the remains discovered in 2007 near Yekaterinburg, said the bones are those of a boy age 12 to 14 and a young woman in her late teens,

*both DNA testing and historical and archaeological analysis made the identification of the bones as Alexei, the 13-year-old son of Czar Nicholas II, and Grand Duchess Maria,

*
The committee expects to publish definitive results in July.

 

[AGRBear]

And why do they keep insisting that it is Maria when Dr Maples and his team clearly demonstrated - in a number of ways - that the body which has now been assigned by the Russians to Anastasia - was too developed physically to have been her. According to the Russians' viewpoint, Anastasia had developed physically more than her older sister and we know that is not true.

Also, why did they say they estimated the body which they think is Alexei to be 4 ft 10 when we know he was almost the same height as his father - 5 foot 7? Of course it could just be an error -after all the Russian scientists originally - and for quite some time - identified the body of Demidova as being that of the Tsar. Identifying the gender of a body from the pelvis is a basic anthropological procedure and yet they made a very elementary mistake.

Here is the actual quote:
1 Oct 2007
Russian Newspaper: Intefax

Interfax wrote article on the new discovery in which the following is a part:

Since I don't read Russian, I have been told that this tells us that the Russians are indicating the remains of the female, Marie, estimated height is 160 cm = 5 feet 2.5 inches tall and that the male, Alexei, estimated height is 142-143 cm or 143= 4 feet 6.9 inches tall.

I will take my remarks to the How Tall Was Alexei When He Died thread.

AGRBear<<



This photo was taken 4/17 Oct 1916 and the girls are not lined up as they are in the next photo so heights are difficult to determine:

Here is a video taken during this photo shot:

YouTube - Romanov Home Video

Nicholas II was 5 feet 7 inches tall.

About four months later:

This photo was taken in the Sping of 1917:

All the girls look about the same height as in the Oct. 1916 photo.

Tatiana who looks about 5 feet 6 inches - taller than Olga and Marie
Anastasia - shortest of the girls and believed to be about 5 feet 2 inches
Alexei - 3 months later was said to be 5 feet and 1/2 inch tall


BEAR's OPINION:

I think Alexei was close to his father's height 5 feet 6 to 5 feet 7 inches tall by July of 1918. Why? The average growith for a boy this age is 3.5 inches a year. If Alexi was 5 feet 1/2 inch on 1 Jan. 1917 then from 1 Jan. 1917 to 1 Jan 1918 he would have been about 5 feet 4 inches tall. Add another seven months and add another 2 inches and that would make him about 5 feet 6 inches tall.

His weight was probably more than 80 pounds because in one of the diaries we are told that Alexei was feeling better and his appetite had increased AND that that he was eating well. He still wasn't mobile enough to burn off any calories. By this time there was more starch in their meals than meat. Probably weight closer to 90 pounds.

Since Anastasia was known to be about 5 feet 2. inches tall in 1918, we can tell by the photos that Marie was taller. Most think she was about 5 feet 6 inches. She was taller than 5 feet 2 inches.

The estimated height of Alexei and Marie, as told in the news Interfax, [seen in above post] indicates they believe the two newly found remains are 4 feet 6 inches for Alexei and 5 feet 2.5 inches for Marie. The reporter must have been in error when he reported what the scientist told them. If the report is true and this is what the Russian scientists believe, then, it would appear that someone didn't estimate the heights correctly, or, the remains are not Alexei and GD Marie.


AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Please don't make too much of the height estimates, they don't appear to be official and were only in that one story. I have to agree there is no way Alexei was 4'10- he was measured as 5'1" in early 1917, and had grown a great deal during his 'long and lanky' adolescence. His last photos show a long faced, long limbed young man very different from the cute faced tsarevich we all know and love. Had he lived, he probably would have been like his famously tall ancestors (All the Romanov men were tall, well over 6 ft., only his father missed out on those genes)

But I do believe it's Alexei in the pit and the numbers are wrong. Really, there is NO WAY TO ACCURATELY ESTIMATE HEIGHT if you don't have an INTACT LONG BONE from the arm or leg available to measure. This is why a height was never given for the height of Olga N. in the original grave since her bones had been either broken or cut. In the case of the new pit, because only a few bone fragments were recovered, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE to determine the height of either victim.

 

[AGRBear]

Please reread the article. It tell us the estimated height of Alexei is 4 feet 6.9 inches.

Olga's femur was intact. The Russians cut it. Maples estimated her height in his book.

It is true, only 44 fragments were found. However, it is not Bear who estimated their height. This is given to us in the article.

AND, in one of the first articles, the newsman claim that the man who found the skull of the male said the skull was small and that of a child's. Alexei's skull should not be small but as large as his father's if he was 5 feet 5 inches or taller.

Like the mass grave, there are too many bone fragments missing if indeed this is the buriel place of two bodies.

A lot of question need answers which I hope are forthcoming this month.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

It is impossible to estimate height from a few charred fragments.

That one story in Russian has never been duplicated or verified by any other source. It's really not reliable or solid enough to make it such an issue.

 

[J Kendrick]

It is impossible to estimate height from a few charred fragments.

That one story in Russian has never been duplicated or verified by any other source. It's really not reliable or solid enough to make it such an issue.

The height estimates based on preliminary examinations of the bone fragments were given as 160 cm for a female and 142-143 cm for a male in a public statement made on September 28th, 2007 by Viktor Zvyagin, head of Identification at the Russian Center of Medical Examination.

JK

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

But I do believe it's Alexei in the pit and the numbers are wrong. Really, there is NO WAY TO ACCURATELY ESTIMATE HEIGHT if you don't have an INTACT LONG BONE from the arm or leg available to measure. This is why a height was never given for the height of Olga N. in the original grave since her bones had been either broken or cut. In the case of the new pit, because only a few bone fragments were recovered, it's literally IMPOSSIBLE to determine the height of either victim.

I do believe that the two new discovered remains are of Alexei and Anastasia. It is hard to figure the height of the bones because it's very little fragments of them. But, the point is they figured the age of both the female and male. It was between Alexei's age of 13 and Anastasia's age of 17.

I think Tatiana was a little taller than 5ft 6in. I believe she was 5ft 8in.

Since Anastasia was known to be about 5 feet 2. inches tall in 1918, we can tell by the photos that Marie was taller. Most think she was about 5 feet 6 inches. She was taller than 5 feet 2 inches.

I agree, I think Anastasia may have grown one inch taller maybe at 5ft 3in. Many said that Maria was 5ft 7in. Olga was 5ft 6in. Tatiana may have been 5ft 8in. Alexei, I'm not certain about him because he could have had a possible growth spurt. But, there's really not enough information prove the exact height of OTMAA in June/July 1918.
But, Alexei could have had a growth spurt? You can't be sure that those were the postive heights during their deaths.

 

[lexi4]

But, Alexei could have had a growth spurt? You can't be sure that those were the postive heights during their deaths.

That would be some growth spurt.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

That would be some growth spurt.

Yeah, but males grow differently from females.

I think Alexei was close to his father's height 5 feet 6 to 5 feet 7 inches tall by July of 1918. Why? The average growith for a boy this age is 3.5 inches a year. If Alexi was 5 feet 1/2 inch on 1 Jan. 1917 then from 1 Jan. 1917 to 1 Jan 1918 he would have been about 5 feet 4 inches tall. Add another seven months and add another 2 inches and that would make him about 5 feet 6 inches tall.

Yeah, that is true. Boys usually grow faster than girls. I agree, Alexei could have been that possible height in July 1918.

 

[Russophile]

Yeah, but males grow differently from females.


Yeah, that is true. Boys usually grow faster than girls. I agree, Alexei could have been that possible height in July 1918.

Now not necessarily. Our family is different in that we're late bloomers. I have a brother who's 6'4" and didn't get there until after he turned 18. and he would have been taller.
My soldier son is 19, soon to be 20 this year and still hasn't grown to his full height. He's over 6'2".
There was height in the Romanovs over in NN's side of the family. Does anybody know how NAR's side grew? Alexander the 3rd was a large man.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

All the Romanov men were tall. (Peter the Great was 6'5") Only Nicholas who took after his mother was not. Michael was tall, as were all the uncles and cousins.

In my family, everyone is well grown by about 14 and never grow again. My son is 6'4" and was over 6 feet by the time he was 13. As early as 9 he was getting snide remarks on Halloween about being too old to trick or treat because he was tall and they thought he was older. I haven't grown an inch since 9th grade.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Now not necessarily. Our family is different in that we're late bloomers. I have a brother who's 6'4" and didn't get there until after he turned 18. and he would have been taller.
My soldier son is 19, soon to be 20 this year and still hasn't grown to his full height. He's over 6'2".

Usually people would say they stop growing in their early teenage years.

In my family, everyone is well grown by about 14 and never grow again. My son is 6'4" and was over 6 feet by the time he was 13. As early as 9 he was getting snide remarks on Halloween about being too old to trick or treat because he was tall and they thought he was older. I haven't grown an inch since 9th grade.

Yeah, but some men grow short, so not all men grow tall. It depends on how tall their parents and family were.

 

[Menarue]

A friend´s family was so tall that they were called "the giant" family except for her youngest son, he was 14 and very small for his age. She was so worried that she was talking about it all the time and buying all kinds of supplements etc. Suddenly at 17 he shot up just as tall as his brother and sister. Both boys are airline pilots now so I hope those planes have plenty of leg room.
By the way I love that phrase AnastasiaR - "some men grow short".
I am afraid that as a woman I grew short too.
I have a daughter 5.0" married to a 6.4" man, he said that he was quite short until he was about 16, while his brother stayed short. I really don´t think there is any magical pattern.

 

[Russophile]

All the Romanov men were tall. (Peter the Great was 6'5") Only Nicholas who took after his mother was not. Michael was tall, as were all the uncles and cousins.

In my family, everyone is well grown by about 14 and never grow again. My son is 6'4" and was over 6 feet by the time he was 13. As early as 9 he was getting snide remarks on Halloween about being too old to trick or treat because he was tall and they thought he was older. I haven't grown an inch since 9th grade.

Now that's interesting genetics.
Does anybody know what they, the Romanovs did? Were they late bloomers or early growers?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Now that's interesting genetics.
Does anybody know what they, the Romanovs did? Were they late bloomers or early growers?

Of course not. I just mentioned my family because you did and I wanted to show the other side of how people develop.

 

[Russophile]

I think that would be an interesting factor to add to the information about the bones. Can never have too much information in this case!

 

[BorisRom]

Nicholas's shirt (from 1891 into 2008) - NEW!

Interfax today:
http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=25542
(in my translation, in reduction)
<<The Hermitage is ready to give for examination a shirt of Nicholas[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif] II[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]St.-Petersburg. On July, 18th. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]InterFax[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif] - the State Hermitage is ready to give Ni[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ch[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]ola[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]s[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]'s II shirt on which spots of blood of tsar were kept, for genetic comparison with the identified remains of cesarevitch Alexey and great [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]princess[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif] Maria. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]"The Investigatory group with experts came to the Hermitage several weeks ago, and they looked [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]up and down [/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]this shirt. The shirt will be given to them when in the Hermitage the corresponding letter will act. However [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the Hermitage [/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]did not [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]get such letter till now[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]", - the press-service of the Hermitage[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] has informed "Interfax"[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]The [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]s[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]hirt is stored here since 1941 and, according to all documents, with 80 percent probability really belonged [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]to Nicholas [/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]II. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]It is supposed, that the Russian scientists in July of this year will start carrying out of one more genetic research. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]As the chief of the Sverdlovsk regional bureau of judicial medical examination [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]N.Nevolin[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif] has informed earlier, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the [/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]remains of [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the[/FONT][FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif] skeleton [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]№4 of the first Ekaterinburg burial place will compare to spots of blood on this shirt of Nikolay Aleksandrovich Romanov in which he was during attempt at him in 1891 in Japan. Now this shirt is in the Hermitage. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]>>.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial CYR, sans-serif]*********************************************[/FONT]
My comment: I don't know how this shirt has appeared in the Hermitage in 1941 and why experts of the Hermitage estimate probability of as 80 % that it belonged to Nicholas in 1891. Yesterday the state telechannel RTR has shown this white shirt: I saw on it Nicholas's monograms and some spots of blood (dark\black spots in the size up to 5-10 sm on a collar and on the right sleeve).

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The Japan samples have been tested before, and do not match the bones or blood from Nicholas's relatives such as Xenia Sfris. It's highly likely that while the shirt may belong to him, it has had so much contamination over the years it's not valuable for DNA testing anymore (like the AA slide from 1951) Back in 1891 no one preserved anything in sterile environs and had no idea DNA testing would ever exist. The first time a strange person handled it and sweated on it, it became useless. Just imagine how many times it's been moved and handled in 117 years.

 

[lucien]

The Japan samples have been tested before, and do not match the bones or blood from Nicholas's relatives such as Xenia Sfris. It's highly likely that while the shirt may belong to him, it has had so much contamination over the years it's not valuable for DNA testing anymore (like the AA slide from 1951) Back in 1891 no one preserved anything in sterile environs and had no idea DNA testing would ever exist. The first time a strange person handled it and sweated on it, it became useless. Just imagine how many times it's been moved and handled in 117 years.

Agree Anna,the shirt is useless,and besides...a 80% chance it really did belong to Nicky,and hundreds of,more or less,dirty hands....?It's got to be better then that.Or not,we don't need that shirt to prove anything,all the prove is there already,as we've sadly came to know.No clue which bulb at the Hermitage came up with these lines over a wodka or two...but ofcourse they too wish to be mentioned later as being extremely helpfull in the unveiling research in the outcome concerning the digging in the mud just outside Ekaterinenburg.
They all want a ride now,wait and see.....

 

[AGRBear]

Speaking of shirts. What ever happen to the "sailor shirt" which they found in the pits in July. I believe it was reported earlier that they believed it was Alexei's.

AGRBear

 

[Michael HR]

Sailor shirt? I had no idea they had found one, how intresting. Was not Alexis wearing an army shirt when he was killed? One to ponder

 

[AGRBear]

It was thought by some posters that Alexei was wearing his sailor shirt, like the one found in the two pits last July. Many of us disagreed because Alexei was no longer wearing sailor shirts but the kaki uniform like his father which would have meant he was wearing the army shirt. Then, it was said that it was reported that the shirt may have just been thrown into the grave by one of the men in the buriel detail. But that doesn't make sense either because Yurovsky didn't want anything in the grave which would identify any of the Romanovs as being the Romanovs.

There is, however, testimonies only ten of the victims were stripped. One or two people claimed Alexei's body was not completely stripped. They claim his shirt was not taken off of him. I'm sure I could track down the sources of the testimonies of the Bolsheviks if you'd like them. I don't recall the name of the thread this was discussed on AP but it was just after the news about the two remains found in the two pits broke last July. Perhaps someone can refreshen my memory and give others a chance to read what was said.

AGRBear

PS Found the post on the thread >>The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered, FAQs. Please Read. Page 1, post 1:

FA for Alexander Palace:>> The Forensic Director of Medicine of Sverdlovsk Mr Nevoline clarified that the forensic scientists had also received seven fragments of teeth, three bullets of a weapon with short standard cannon and a fragment of fabric of garment.
G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning in 1918. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas. He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."<<

 

[Michael HR]

Maybe he made a mistake as everyone else seems to have mentioned a army shirt as his Father was wearing. Maybe in the 10 years he simply got it wrong. Unless he was wearing this shirt under thr army shirt as there is mention that the Heir was also wearing an under cloth which had items hidden in like his sisters and "protected" him from the bullets, at least at first. Perhaps this was the shirt they mentioned?

 

[BorisRom]

Agree Anna,the shirt is useless,and besides...a 80% chance it really did belong to Nicky,and hundreds of,more or less,dirty hands....?It's got to be better then that.Or not,we don't need that shirt to prove anything,all the prove is there already,as we've sadly came to know.No clue which bulb at the Hermitage came up with these lines over a wodka or two...but ofcourse they too wish to be mentioned later as being extremely helpfull in the unveiling research in the outcome concerning the digging in the mud just outside Ekaterinenburg.
They all want a ride now,wait and see.....

Lucien,
I am surprised by your post. Such impression, that you are in advance assured (on 100 %) in negative result of this comparison.