Grigori Efimovich Rasputin (1869-1916)

[Marengo]

In this thread we can discuss Rasputins life and death.

 

[lexi4]

Did you have something specific in mind? For example, his influence on Alex? Affect on Russian government?

 

[Pelayo]

I would like to know more about his relation with Alix, because i had red one year ago that had been found same letters that Alix had sent to Rasputin and that could show that they had had any sentimental relation, and i would like to know if this information is truth or false.
In other side, i had red that Rasputin was bisexual and had relations with a lot of palatin ladys but also with many Men, even with Price Yussuppof. Thanks

 

[Anna was Franziska]

He is a very interesting character! The hold he had on Alexandra because of the sickness of Alexei, and the way it helped destroy the gov't, is one of the most tragic and fascinating tales of all time.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

He is a very interesting character! The hold he had on Alexandra because of the sickness of Alexei, and the way it helped destroy the gov't, is one of the most tragic and fascinating tales of all time.

Absolutely. In my view, he played and pryed upon Alexandra's emotions. Did he have a hand in destroying the government? Perhaps. I mean he wasn't exactly helpful.

 

[lexi4]

I would like to know more about his relation with Alix, because i had red one year ago that had been found same letters that Alix had sent to Rasputin and that could show that they had had any sentimental relation, and i would like to know if this information is truth or false.
In other side, i had red that Rasputin was bisexual and had relations with a lot of palatin ladys but also with many Men, even with Price Yussuppof. Thanks

Alix and Resputin did not have a sexual relationship if that is what you are askin.
He did have a hold on her and as a result had influence on decisions made by her husband. Rasputin would make suggestions as to appointments etc. that she passed on to Nicholas. He generally followed the advice, which was disconcerting to many inside the court. His hold on Alexandra was that she believed he could heal her son and that he had saved Alexei's life.

 

[COUNTESS]

I agree with lexi4, there was no sexual relationship with Alexandra. Some, feel, that he had a calming effect on her and thus helped calm Alexei and thus stop the bleeding. So, of course, she was in thrall to him. She had had other people in her life for the same purpose. Grigory's purpose, other than money and access to lovely women and power, I do not know. I have never actually seen anyone write about what he wanted to gain from the manipulating of the Tsar. As none them, Nicholas, Alexandra or Grigory could see the handwriting on the wall, they never recognized the problems.

 

[normalil]

It's a fascinating subject to which we'll probably never have all the answers.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Grigory's purpose, other than money and access to lovely women and power, I do not know. I have never actually seen anyone write about what he wanted to gain from the manipulating of the Tsar.

Well, one could deduce that he may have been drunk with power, and to have the kind of personal power and control over another in those days (time, place, context, and situation) says a lot. To put Rasputin's position and personality in a modern context, his behavior was similar to Eugene Landy, and the control (mental, life, etc) he had over Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys.

Clearly, Rasputin was the master of manipulation and a Svengali of sorts... whose ultimately downfall, in the end, was his own thrist for greed and his power position (if that made any sense.)

 

[Regina]

IMO, he was such an interesting person! I have been reading something about him but not so much as I would like, so I can't wait to read more posts about him!

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Indeed, he was.

Cracking open some of my old undergrad Russian history books, there is a fair account of who this man was. We know that he was Siberian peasent who was supposedly a holy man; Nicolas apparently noted that Rasputin was:

... a good, simple-minded, religious Russian. When in trouble or assailed by doubts, I like to have a talk with him, and incariabley feel at peace with myself afterward.

Because he gained the trust from Nicolas and Alexandra one can easily see how he was able to slide by and have protection when it came to various moral issues (did that make any sense?)

Also, I believe Nicolas relationship with Rasputin was one of the factors in his downfall, and several Russian authors, including my old Prof, would agree.





*1 Russia and the Russians: A History by Geoffrey Hosking. Originally quoted from: V.I. Rodzianko, "Krusheniw imperii: Zapiski predsedatelia Russkoi Gosudarstvennoi Dumy," Arkhiv Russkoi Revoliutsii 17 (1926), 37-38.

 

[Jason R Maier esq]

I recall reading that the plotters (Yussopov et al) tried to poison Rasuptin; when that didn't work, then they shot him and/or beat him over the head with dumbbells, then threw him into an icy river . . .

I also recall reading that Ozzy Osbourne was working on making a musical (or something) about Rasputin's life . . . .

 

[COUNTESS]

The Tsar allowed himself to be influenced by his wife and Rasputin, so that he never enacted the reforms the Duma demanded in 1916. That would have changed the course of history. That he allowed Rasputin's advice to prevail was quite foolish, and that is being kind.

A musical. Sounds so Mel Brooks. Made me laugh. It, probably, will be great.

 

[Russophile]

Good Lord I hope Ozzy refrains from putting any animals in the musical!
Rasputin did not have sexual relations with Alexandra, ditto to Countess and Lexi. But what would you do, as a mother, when Tsar is akin to being anointed by God? You have a DUTY to rule one of the most vast and opulent empires in the world. And your son is ill? Would you not do anything to save him? Would you not bring in a peasant of questionable reputation and morality to save your son?
Interesting thought, that. What would each of us do to save a child?
Hard to say if Rasputin pushed it. IMO, he certainly did. I believe Nicholas sent him away from court on a couple of occasions to have the gossip settle.
What's the consensus here? I am wondering if Nicholas didn't like him (Rasputin) at all and suffered his presence because of Alexi? We do know that Alexandra fawned over him. Was that real? Or contrived fawning?
And what powers did Rasputin possess? One book I read a decade ago, Rasputin: The Holy Devil by Rene Fulop-Miller, suggests that Grigory may have had some hypnotic powers. The author says that certain "vets" in Siberia are taught to staunch blood in horses when there is a wound through meditation and hypnosis and the laying on of hands, Grigory learned this and brought it to the IF.

 

[COUNTESS]

Oh, yes, he might have had hypnotic powers. What would you do to save your son, anything. Not a doubt. But, and here is the big BUT, Nicholas' duty was to his country and his throne. He exposed both to the terror that followed by not doing his job. If he felt he could not do his job, he could have abdicated way back when and taken his son and the starets and Alix and lived out their lives, somewhere. Michael could have assummed power, there were plenty of relatives who would have jumped at the job. It was selfishness and pomposity that placed them in danger. If you cannot, properly, command your ship, you turn the job to someone else. It can be done.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

A musical. Sounds so Mel Brooks. Made me laugh. It, probably, will be great.

Oh heavens I would love to see a Mel Brooks musical of Rasputin. I can envision a dance number ala The Inquistion or Springtime for Hitler.

YouTube - History of the World Part One - The Spanish Inquisition

YouTube - Spring time for Hitler 2005

 

[Anna was Franziska]

A really big part of it, and the most tragic irony- is that Nicky and Alix felt like they couldn't tell anyone that Alexei had hemophilia or they'd think the dynasty was weak and the succession was in question.

They had a law in Russia, made by Catherine the Great's son, that no woman could inherit the throne, and Nicholas first had four daughters- though I wonder why he didn't repeal the law, if one Tsar could make it, another could stop it right? Nicky's brother George had died of TB, and his other brother, Michael, had several 'unequal' or questionable mate prospects, finally marrying a woman who was not approved and therefore eliminating his children from succession. In the wings waited the 'evil' and much hated Vladimirovichi brothers, sons of Alexander III's brother. So Nicky and Alix were at first desperate to have a son, and then desperate to keep him alive.

So the tragic irony was that, by trying to keep the dynasty going by keeping Alexei alive via Rasputin (or so Alix believed), they helped those who were trying to destroy them! The revolutionaries used Rasputin, his influence, rumors of his sexual relationship with Alix, and more as propaganda to help turn the masses against their once much loved Tsar.

Alexandra believed in Rasputin fully. There was nothing sexual between him or the girls, they looked at him as a holy man and were totally devoted to him. Alix's best friend, Anna Vyrubova, was among Rasputin's most loyal supporters, and while her character is most often left out of movies, she played an enormous role in him getting influence in the palace. Often when he came to visit, he would to go her little house at Tsarskoe Selo and Alix and the children would meet him there. There was a time, during WWI, when Nicky was gone, that no one was allowed to see the Tsarina if not first approved by Vyrubova to see if they were friendly or hostile to Rasputin. In a letter between Felix Yussoupov's mother Zenaida, and Anna Rodzianko, wife of the Duma president, it was said that 'the government is totally in control of Alexandra, Vyrubova and Rasputin.' No one could even gain access to an audience, or have their words taken seriously, if they were not approved by Rasputin. This is when the government appointments approved by Rasputin happened, in what Radzinsky called 'the inner palace coup.' These pro Rasputin politicians were unpopular with the Duma and the people and this led directly to the downfall of the gov't.

 

[lexi4]

I remember reading that Rasputin had quite a bit of influence over Nicky's appointments at court. If I am remembering this right, he would make suggestions to Alex. She would communicate them to Nichoas....sometimes in letters referring only to him as "our friend." If he used hypnotic powers to calm Alexei, can we also assume that he used the same on Alex? His power of suggestion seemed to work on her. Nicholas was such a doofus that he went along with it. Many of the members of the Romanov family were resentfull and concerned about the power Rasputin had over Alex.

 

[sofajr]

the tsar would never give up his power without serious conditions. and was not due to his selfiness or will to get everithing. every member of russian royal family was very religious, all of them knew that the throne would be deserved only be a person blessed with God's will. all of them believed that they do right to russian people. unfortunately not all of them did. and people like Rasputin used that kind of religiosly of the royal family in their own interests.

 

[lexi4]

Quite true. Yet I would like to point out that Rasputin could only use religion against them (beliefs) because they allowed it. Never once did Nicholas put his foot down about Rasputin. He allowed himself to be influenced by him as did his wife.

 

[sofajr]

as far as i know Rasputin influenced on only Empress on first place. but when he saw that his son can survive with the help of Rasputin he started to believe that this man may be helpful and has a gift from God. may be Nikolai II thought that Rasputin is a provider of God's will and that's why he entrusted him. but mostly he trusted his wife who had the enormous power on tzar.

 

[Pelayo]

These are two of the predicitions that Rasputin made:

"I feel that i have to die before New year day: I want advice to the rusian people, to the Fthae and Mother Rusia, and to the boys, that if i´m killed for the comunards killers, and specialy for my villager brothers, you, Tzar of Rusia, don´t have fear, keep in your throne, rule and don´t fear for your sons, because they will reighn for one hundred years or more. But if i´m killed for the nobilty, their hands keep touch for my blood, and for twenty five years they will not be able to quit this blood of their hands. They will must leave Rusia. The brothers will kill the brothers, they will kill among theirselves. And for twenty five years there will haven´t nobility in the country. Tzar of Rusia, if you hear the sound of the bells, that advice you that Grigorij has been murdered, you must know this: if your relatives were who has killed me, then neither of your family , this is neither of your sons or neither of your relatives will survible me for more than two years. They will be killed for the rusian people... !Pray, pray!! Be strong, think in your blessed family".

".. Like in the Holy Rome House, That will go from Peter to Peter, in this way the Holy Petersburg House will go from Michael to Michael, The first Michael builded the throne, and the last Michael will not have time to enjoy it, because all will happen fast, the life like the death"."...i had looked throw the window and i had seen blood´s drops that beaten against the glass, while in the land were made blood and mud puddles, in that splashed pigs, wolfs and others impure animals". "..one more time, i had rescue him, and i don´t know how many more i will rescue him still...but i will rescue him from his hangmen. Each time i hold the Tzar and The Mother, and the girls and the first-born son, my shoulder felt a scary chill. It´s like if in these holds i streched corpses.. And then, i pray for this people, because i felt that in this our Rusia, they are who have more need. And pray for all the romanov family, because it´s making the shadow of a long eclipse"

(Sorry for my bad english)

If he said things like that is understable that The Tzar and Alex had a greath faith in him...Because all about this had been done

 

[COUNTESS]

Well, it wasn't too hard to know that revolution was coming and brother would fight brother. That the Tsar and his family safety was, certainly, an issue. It has been 92 years since Rasputin's death and not 25 years and still nothing has changed for them. The murderers survived him for many years. I don't know, maybe he did have ESP. I just think he was a charlatan.

 

[lexi4]

Just goes to show even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
There has been some scholarship that has suggested that those predictions are not authentic. I can't remember all of the details now. Alexandra was delusional and her reliance upon Rasputin is an example of how mentally unbalanced she was. And Nicholas just didn't have the sense god gave a horse. And yes, he did allow Rasputin's influence in matters of government.

 

[lexi4]

Well, it wasn't too hard to know that revolution was coming and brother would fight brother. That the Tsar and his family safety was, certainly, an issue. It has been 92 years since Rasputin's death and not 25 years and still nothing has changed for them. The murderers survived him for many years. I don't know, maybe he did have ESP. I just think he was a charlatan.

Charlatan I think. I doubt he had ESP. It didn't take a whole lot of brains to figure out a revolution was coming. Do you remember recent publications calling the into question the authenticity of parts of those predictions? For the life of me I can't remember where I read that.
P.S. Is there a spell checker on here? If so, where?

 

[COUNTESS]

Your spelling looks fine and you are right on all accounts.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

While I would much rather believe the prophecies are real, I have seen some say that they were written after his death by his secretary and his supporters. I don't know for sure. But they do say that he was 'functionally illiterate' and that either his secretary or Anna V. wrote much of his longer correspondence. So maybe he dictated the prophecies, who knows.

 

[lexi4]

While I would much rather believe the prophecies are real, I have seen some say that they were written after his death by his secretary and his supporters. I don't know for sure. But they do say that he was 'functionally illiterate' and that either his secretary or Anna V. wrote much of his longer correspondence. So maybe he dictated the prophecies, who knows.

I remember something along those lines Anna, but can't remember where I read it. Do you have any sources? It's driving me batty.
Thank you,
Lexi

 

[COUNTESS]

They didn't believe that they had to do good to be in their position. They believed they were ordained by God to their position, so all that they did was good, true or not. Rasputin was, supposedly, illiterate. They, most certainly, could have been written after his death.

 

[lexi4]

They didn't believe that they had to do good to be in their position. They believed they were ordained by God to their position, so all that they did was good, true or not. Rasputin was, supposedly, illiterate. They, most certainly, could have been written after his death.

I think that belief, that all they did was good, led to their downfall. I also think that belief contribute to the sway Rasputin had over Alex. She believed him to be a man of God.
As to his literacy, here is what Orlando Figes wrote: ..."When the post of the Tsar's confessor fell vacant in 1910, Alexandra insisted on Rasputin being trained for ordination so that he could take up the job. But it soon became clear that he was unable to read anything but the most basic parts of the Scriptures. The capacity for learning by heart, which was essential for the priesthood, proved quite beyond him. (Rasputin's memory was in fact so poor that often he even forgot the names of his friends; so he gave them nicknames..."
His daughter, Maria, wrote a book about him. I haven't read it, but have read that she paints a pretty rosy picture of her father. She writes that he was a holy man and misunderstood. I'd love to read the book. But it isn't cheap.