Grigori Efimovich Rasputin (1869-1916)

[sofajr]

I have understood that most of members have negative position on Rasputin. but why? he was a person of his epoch with specific features and destiny. I believe that he did't want to do hurm to russia and russian royalty. For Tsar and Tsaritsa he represented the whole people of the country, actually he was one of that category. Rasputin was a peasant who never lost summer to crop grains to feed the family. but more important he tried to help Nikolay and Alexandra Fedorovna to save life for their child and inheritant.
Yes, Rasputin thied to interfere in politics, but according to almoust all saficient russian sources, his opinion was the same as Nikolay had.

about the book of Matryona (Maria in english manner) Rasputina - I found the part of it in russian. when will finish it, mat write little summary if somebody is interested.

 

[lexi4]

I don't know that I would say it is a negative opinion, I would say it is an objective opinion based on research. He was a drunk, a womanizer, egotist and he manipulated the IF. He was rude and took pleasure in being rude. He participated in drunken orgies and spent days in the bathhouse with prostitutes. Those actions can hardly be considered "holy."

Among his so-called prophecies is the one that he predicted Alexei would not die and that he would be cured of the disease by the time he was 13.

 

[BorisRom]

Real Rasputin

Real Rasputin:
1. Without doubts, Rasputin possessed the gift of the healing (even on distance, without contact to a person). Without doubts, he some times rescued Alexi from illness and Alexandra had absolutely all the bases to not leave him.

2. Even before acquaintance to Imperial family he has received a revelation from above (Revelation of Heavens), that he should go to St.-Petersburg to Imperial family. Certainly, elements of personal vanity accompanied with his mission, but he sincerely considered the service to Imperial family as the Mission from God.

3. All period of his mission in Imperial family can be divided into two periods: prior to the beginning WWI (1914) and after beginning WWI. Prior to the beginning WWI he at all did not drink wine and was modest and silent in St.-Petersburg. It is known, that in July, 1914 he has sent to Nicholas II about 20 (!) telegrams with desperate requests to not admit the beginning of war. He expected awful consequences of war for Russia and Imperial family. Not he one: minister Durnovo warned of it too.
After the beginning of war he has started to drink wine and he has started to get in scandals. He considered the future collapse is inevitable... and he could not operate the emotions as it is peculiar to many Russian people.

4. It seems Radzinsky wrote, that «it would be strange, if Rasputin has not left the prophetical letter» - Radzinsky was right. The letter was. Perhaps, Simanovitch (his former secretary) has reproduced it on memory and not quite in Rasputin's style, but the letter was. Rasputin saw visions as well as was clairvoyant and healer.
In the autumn of 1916 Rasputin already knew, that he will be killed.
Moreover, he knew, that he will be killed on December, 16th in palace of Yusupov. There are some very strong indirect demonstrations (evidences) of it.

5. As to hearsays about the influence of Rasputin on Alexandra\Nicholas decisions, - these hearsays were hundredfold exaggerated by opposition. It was the intentioned slander of opposition.
Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev (see his memories «Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote about that time (1916), that he specially was engaged in investigation of Rasputin's influence and has found, that only two (from approximately ten-twelve) Rasputin's "notes" with requests for the important purposes(assignments) have been satisfied. His conclusion was those: Rasputin's requests were satisfied only when they corresponded to opinion of Alexandra and Nicholas.
Of course, Rasputin after 1914 gave irreconcilable opposition many occasions for attacks on Alexandra\Nicholas (and - the MAIN thing - many occasions for distribution of hearsays and slander), however, Rasputin himself had not a negative influence on the Imperial family. More correctly to tell, that his influence was positively in all aspects.
Many oppositionists with surprise have recognized, that it has been changed nothing after murder of Rasputin. Others have told, that all things became even worse.
Whether anyone can give one-two concrete example of negative influence of Rasputin on Imperial family? As far as I remember, the Commission of Provisional government could not find any important compromising evidences (proofs) neither on Rasputin, nor on empress Alexandra.
By the way, I shall remind, that main "cool girl" and "girl-friend" (and ostensibly "companion in crime") of Rasputin, Anna Vyrubova in reply to charge has demanded medical examination and she appeared the virgin. I think, the same effect is the answer to other charges to address of Rasputin.

6. Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev («Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote:
«Harbingers of revolution aspired to make from Rasputin a frightful-image to carry out own devilish plans. Therefore they distributed the most bad hearsays which made an impression, that only at intermediary of this Siberian muzhik it is possible to achieve a high position and influence …
A mind (a natural wisdom) and natural sharpness enabled him sometimes soberly and acutely to judge the person even on one meeting or a sight. It was known to tsarina, therefore she sometimes asked his opinion on this or that candidate on a high post in the government. But from such questions up to ostensibly an ordering of ministers by Rasputin - very big step and neither tsar, nor tsarina never did this step, undoubtedly.
Nevertheless many people believed, that all depends on a scrap of a paper with the several words written by Rasputin's hand … Sometimes I investigated these hearsays, but never found convincing proofs of their truthfulness.
Someone can think, that all this is my sentimental inventions. No, I base on reports of agents which worked as years as servants in house of Rasputin - they knew his daily life up to the smallest details».


Boris

 

[Pelayo]

In my opinion, Rasputin had a character and personality with a very strong efect over people, and for this, one hundred years ago we are still interested for him. He was a mix of holy man, rude, womanizer, drunker, and i think that he had been acepted for the imperial family, in the Russia Court, with it´s straight and rigid rules is what make his person more atracted.

I would like to know how he could cure to Alexey, and how many times he had to atend him.

I don´t know why but i had always very interested in this part of the history. I know that Russia was not a Haeven in the earth in this time, like may be neither country, and that Russia still keep a social organization very obsoleted that was overdosed for a quick progress in the economy the the last years of the XIX century, that make more clear the social trouble and the diference between urban and country prople.
In my opinion this was the trouble. May be Nicholas could make samething better that he did, or Rasputin could had influence in gubernamental decisions, or Alix, but i think that the real trouble afected to the totally of the country because it´s needed a social basis that support the changes in the mind of the people and allows the changes.

What i try to say is that i think that it´s not possible to blame only one person for all what happened.

I love all what i read about the family relations between the imperial family, specially because in their relations they appear like very human, and i love their family book pictures.

There ones that i think are very special that were same pics that were taken in their captivity time and when Alexay and his sisters had shaved their hair because a old siberian tradition said that this was a good remedy to cure the mumps ill.

 

[lexi4]

Real Rasputin:
1. Without doubts, Rasputin possessed the gift of the healing (even on distance, without contact to a person). Without doubts, he some times rescued Alexi from illness and Alexandra had absolutely all the bases to not leave him.

Boris, there is no way to prove this scientifically or conclusively. What we are left with are Nicholas & Alexandra's perceptions of his abilities. It is hard to know, from their writings, what he acutally did and wether or not it would have happened anyway. Rasputin himself said that there were times he used drugs in healing. Whether or not he did in this case, we can't know.

2. Even before acquaintance to Imperial family he has received a revelation from above (Revelation of Heavens), that he should go to St.-Petersburg to Imperial family. Certainly, elements of personal vanity accompanied with his mission, but he sincerely considered the service to Imperial family as the Mission from God.

Again, not something that can be proven. This is a matter of belief and faith. That is what is required. You either believe he had a revelation or you do not. But cannot be proven either way. Not by science. For all we know he could have been hallucinating. Too me, it is a bunch of manipulative poppycock designed to catch the attention of a very vulnerable tsar and tsarina.

3. All period of his mission in Imperial family can be divided into two periods: prior to the beginning WWI (1914) and after beginning WWI. Prior to the beginning WWI he at all did not drink wine and was modest and silent in St.-Petersburg. It is known, that in July, 1914 he has sent to Nicholas II about 20 (!) telegrams with desperate requests to not admit the beginning of war. He expected awful consequences of war for Russia and Imperial family. Not he one: minister Durnovo warned of it too.

It would be interesting to see some of those telgrams. Do you have a souce? And it wouldn't take a genuis to figure out that entering the war was a bad deal for Russia. It sometimes seems like the only person who couldn't see that was the tsar. Again, there were many who knew Russia could not support the war, but Nicholas refused to listen.


After the beginning of war he has started to drink wine and he has started to get in scandals. He considered the future collapse is inevitable... and he could not operate the emotions as it is peculiar to many Russian people.
Agreed

4. It seems Radzinsky wrote, that «it would be strange, if Rasputin has not left the prophetical letter» - Radzinsky was right. The letter was. Perhaps, Simanovitch (his former secretary) has reproduced it on memory and not quite in Rasputin's style, but the letter was. Rasputin saw visions as well as was clairvoyant and healer.
In the autumn of 1916 Rasputin already knew, that he will be killed.

Radzinsky is a wonderful writer, but his opinions are just that...his opinions. He was merely writing his personal opinion when he worte this.

Moreover, he knew, that he will be killed on December, 16th in palace of Yusupov. There are some very strong indirect demonstrations (evidences) of it.

5. As to hearsays about the influence of Rasputin on Alexandra\Nicholas decisions, - these hearsays were hundredfold exaggerated by opposition. It was the intentioned slander of opposition.
Maybe. But where is the proof beyond his daughter's writings? All of those historians could not have been this wrong all of those years.

Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev (see his memories «Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote about that time (1916), that he specially was engaged in investigation of Rasputin's influence and has found, that only two (from approximately ten-twelve) Rasputin's "notes" with requests for the important purposes(assignments) have been satisfied. His conclusion was those: Rasputin's requests were satisfied only when they corresponded to opinion of Alexandra and Nicholas.

I am unaware of this and will check it out. We also have to consider the letters of Nicholas and Alexandra to each other. There are letters in which Alex tell Nicky "their friends" advice and encourages him to heed it. The fact of the matter remains, he should not have had any influence at all.

Of course, Rasputin after 1914 gave irreconcilable opposition many occasions for attacks on Alexandra\Nicholas (and - the MAIN thing - many occasions for distribution of hearsays and slander), however, Rasputin himself had not a negative influence on the Imperial family. More correctly to tell, that his influence was positively in all aspects.

I could not disagree more.

Many oppositionists with surprise have recognized, that it has been changed nothing after murder of Rasputin. Others have told, that all things became even worse.
Whether anyone can give one-two concrete example of negative influence of Rasputin on Imperial family? As far as I remember, the Commission of Provisional government could not find any important compromising evidences (proofs) neither on Rasputin, nor on empress Alexandra.

Sources on the Commission's findings?

By the way, I shall remind, that main "cool girl" and "girl-friend" (and ostensibly "companion in crime") of Rasputin, Anna Vyrubova in reply to charge has demanded medical examination and she appeared the virgin. I think, the same effect is the answer to other charges to address of Rasputin.

6. Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev («Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote:
«Harbingers of revolution aspired to make from Rasputin a frightful-image to carry out own devilish plans. Therefore they distributed the most bad hearsays which made an impression, that only at intermediary of this Siberian muzhik it is possible to achieve a high position and influence …
A mind (a natural wisdom) and natural sharpness enabled him sometimes soberly and acutely to judge the person even on one meeting or a sight. It was known to tsarina, therefore she sometimes asked his opinion on this or that candidate on a high post in the government. But from such questions up to ostensibly an ordering of ministers by Rasputin - very big step and neither tsar, nor tsarina never did this step, undoubtedly.

As I have said before, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And what you are describing is intuition which many people possess. It was not unique to Rasputin or some special divine gift. And the example you site about court appointments shows exactly how much influence he had.

Nevertheless many people believed, that all depends on a scrap of a paper with the several words written by Rasputin's hand … Sometimes I investigated these hearsays, but never found convincing proofs of their truthfulness.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

Someone can think, that all this is my sentimental inventions. No, I base on reports of agents which worked as years as servants in house of Rasputin - they knew his daily life up to the smallest details».

And who are those agents? Where can one find their writings?



Boris

I enjoy discussing Russian history with you Boris and look forward to your response

 

[lexi4]

I agree that it is not possible to blame only one person for all that happened, but on this thread I think we are looking at Rasputin's role which is fair for discussion.

Alexei and his sisters had their head shaved because of measles.
Lexi

 

[BorisRom]

for Lexi

Lexi wrote:
"Boris, there is no way to prove this scientifically or conclusively. What we are left with are Nicholas & Alexandra's perceptions of his abilities. It is hard to know, from their writings, what he acutally did and wether or not it would have happened anyway. Rasputin himself said that there were times he used drugs in healing. Whether or not he did in this case, we can't know"

Lexi, please, re-read (for example) chapters XIV and XV of R.Massie’s book (“Nicholas and Alexandra”). Each author, who wrote about a wonderful Alexi's recover in Spale (autumn of 1912) named it miracle of Rasputin. And it was not the unique case when Rasputin has rescued Alexi.
Boris

 

[BorisRom]

for Lexi

Whether anyone can give one-two concrete example of negative influence of Rasputin on Imperial family? As far as I remember, the Commission of Provisional government could not find any important compromising evidences (proofs) neither on Rasputin, nor on empress Alexandra.
Lexi wrote: “Sources on the Commission's findings?”
Lexi, please, re-read paragraph 4 of chapter VII of book of Nikolay Sokolov («Murder of Imperial family»): «Investigation of Extreme court of inquiry [the Comission of Provisional goverment - B.R.] about Nicholas and Alexandra». The conclusion of Sokolov (and of the court of inquiry): Nikolay and Alexandra are not guilty absolutely.
It is especially surprising, that N.Sokolov in the following paragraph of this chapter «pins all accusations on Rasputin», referring just only opinions and hearsays.
Boris

 

[BorisRom]

for Lexi

Lexi,
As to your doubts concerning objectivity of the book of the Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev (« Okhrana - Russian secret police ») - I can help nothing to you in it, except for advice to read this book to you yourself. Unfortunately, I don't know, whether this book in English or the French language has been published.
Warmly
Boris

 

[Russophile]

Lex, check the library. That's where I got a lot of the books I read to get on this obsession. The library is really good for letting you put a hold on a book and have it transferred from one location to another.
I read the book about Maria but not by Maria and yes, she did paint a rosy picture, saying that when her father was home everything was grand. But I would find something wrong with that, a father being gone, making a pilgrimage all over the place and not with their family. To me, that's not being God-like, God, IMO, made families to stick to gether.

 

[Russophile]

It is natural for most women to like the "forbidden" or "bad boy".
Rasputin never "cured" Alexi, just relieved the symptoms. Alexi was diagnosed with hemophilia (whether or not he had full-blown, I'm not sure).
Off the top of my head I know Rasputin was available at the Spala incident, Lex, help me out here, wasn't it Massie who has Rasputin calling to help Alexi?
And Lex, if you type a word, this forum will put a red line under it telling you it's spelt wrong so you can right click and you can correct it.

 

[lexi4]

Lexi wrote:
"Boris, there is no way to prove this scientifically or conclusively. What we are left with are Nicholas & Alexandra's perceptions of his abilities. It is hard to know, from their writings, what he acutally did and wether or not it would have happened anyway. Rasputin himself said that there were times he used drugs in healing. Whether or not he did in this case, we can't know"

Lexi, please, re-read (for example) chapters XIV and XV of R.Massie’s book (“Nicholas and Alexandra”). Each author, who wrote about a wonderful Alexi's recover in Spale (autumn of 1912) named it miracle of Rasputin. And it was not the unique case when Rasputin has rescued Alexi.
Boris

Dear Boris,
Massie calling it a miracle and attibuting it to Rasputin does not make it so. It is merely Massie's perspective, which is somewhat bias. I would think that if such a mircle did occur it would be attributed to God, not Rasputin.
Lexi

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I have understood that most of members have negative position on Rasputin. but why? he was a person of his epoch with specific features and destiny. I believe that he did't want to do hurm to russia and russian royalty. For Tsar and Tsaritsa he represented the whole people of the country, actually he was one of that category. Rasputin was a peasant who never lost summer to crop grains to feed the family. but more important he tried to help Nikolay and Alexandra Fedorovna to save life for their child and inheritant.
Yes, Rasputin thied to interfere in politics, but according to almoust all saficient russian sources, his opinion was the same as Nikolay had.

about the book of Matryona (Maria in english manner) Rasputina - I found the part of it in russian. when will finish it, mat write little summary if somebody is interested.

I agree he was not a bad man and his intentions were good. I really don't know if his destiny was good or evil, but I do believe he served a large historical purpose in Russia and I do believe he did not mean any harm.

I like Rasputin, I always have, and I find him fascinating and likeable. To me he's one of the more lively and interesting characters in the whole drama. Have you seen how he is portrayed in Nicholas and Alexandra? At times so deeply mystical, at other times, hilarious!

Rasputin was also supposed to have cured Anna Vyrubova after a terrible train wreck in 1915. Doctors pronounced her too far gone for hope and triaged her with the dead. When her parents, and Alexandra, tried to have her moved to a bed, the doctors said there was no need, she would be dead soon. In her delirium she called out for Rasputin. While no one sent for him, he somehow found out and rushed to her side. The story goes that he held her hand and called her name three times. He told her to rise, and she said she hadn't the strength. He told her, take mine- and he stood over her holding her until she awoke. He said she would live but her legs would be crippled. He was so used up he passed out in the floor covered in sweat and had to be taken for treatment himself, but she lived to the ripe old age of 80. You can read this story in Anna's book "Memories of the Russian Court"

Memories of the Russian Court - an online book on Romanov Russia - Welcome Page

I also like his last words to her, when she went to his apartment the night he died to warn him. "What more do you want from me?" he told her. "Already, you have received all."

 

[BorisRom]

Dear Boris,
Massie calling it a miracle and attibuting it to Rasputin does not make it so. It is merely Massie's perspective, which is somewhat bias. I would think that if such a mircle did occur it would be attributed to God, not Rasputin.
Lexi

Yes, Lexi!
Rasputin prayed to God that God has helped Alexi. And... God has helped. It is a usual practice of deeply believing healers (Christian and others) from the most ancient times up to now. Not only Rasputin treated people in such a way. In the beginning of XX century the priest John Kronshtadtsky has cured prays for the Bulgarian tsarevitch Boris (the Bulgarian tsar has sent him(to John) the telegram with this request). There are many other examples of similar healings.
Here there is nothing "surprising" for believing people. It is "simple a miracle". Certainly, scientists cannot explain it till now, but they (scientists) move ahead in research of these phenomena. For example, scientists have opened, that brain biorhythms of a praying (deeply praying) believing person are similar to biorhythms of the chest baby and it promotes healing from illnesses.

 

[lexi4]

Anna,
I do remember reading about that. But again, there is no sceinctific evidence. It is a story that has been passed down and no doubt embellished with time. Did it happen? I don't know. Something probably did.
Lexi

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I am only telling the stories, you conclude what you want. The version I read was in Massie's book, in Anna's, she says she had to be told of the incident because she was unconscious until the end.

 

[lexi4]

I am only telling the stories, you conclude what you want. The version I read was in Massie's book, in Anna's, she says she had to be told of the incident because she was unconscious until the end.

Anna,
I meant no offense. But if we are going to discuss/analyze Rasputin and his alleged powers, we have to look at all sides.

Lexi

 

[tan_berry]

"Neither style of government gave a decent life to the average Russian. More average Russians benefited in the USSR than in Imperial Russia. At least, education became important. There was fear and secrecy in both styles of government. They didn't blow up Tsar and Grand Dukes for the heck of it. They were tyrants, too." I absolutely agree, Countess. The USSR was a step ahead to modern life, in relation to monarchy, not heaven. They even became the second military power in the world and participated in the space researches, besides the improvements in health and education. It was something terrible to murder those lovely children, that crime was a bad beginning for the revolution. I think that it is suggestion, either hypnotic or psychological, what sometimes cures. The immune system reacts positively when the person believes that someone can cure him/her (doctor, priest, etc.) But only psychosomatic, fake diseases can be completely cured in that way. Rasputin relieved the symptoms of the child and ignorant parents believed mistakenly that he could cure him. I think that in 1917 the science could explain to the parents the hemophilia problem, but they wanted to believe in Rasputin. Denial, ignorance, whatever.

 

[Pelayo]

I would like to know if anyone could give us information about how the other royal families talked or though about Rasputin, because i think that the Rusia Imperial Family had very closed relation with their relatives in Great Bretain, Denmark and Hesse.
I like very much history from my childhood and i was always very interested in the last Romanov, about Rasputin and about the Hemophillic illness of Alexey. But for me was a very surprise descover that also in the Royal Spanish family had had the same trouble because two of the son of Alfonso XIII and Ena had the hemophilia, Prince of Asturias Alfonso and Infant Gonzalo, in fact both died for a car crased injuries that provocated a emorrhage. I don´t know if in Spanish was so secret these illness like in Rusia, i supposed that in this time had to be secret, but what i was surprised is that i knew the hemophille in the Royal Spanish family very late, may be only ten years ago.
Does anyone information about if these two Royal Family exchanged information about this illness?

 

[COUNTESS]

They hated him. Queen Alexandra of England, sister to the Dowger Tsarina, said, " That wretched monk caused tremendous sensation in the world, but is only regretted by poor dear Alicky who might have ruined the future of Russia through his influence." That was from a letter to her son King George V. Grand Duchess Elizabeth, Alexandra's sister, dispised him, Grand Duchess Xenia and Olga, as well as the Doweger Tsarina disliked him. The Danish Royal Family as well as the German Royal Family couldn not countenance his being so close to the throne. As far as the Spanish Royal Family and haemophilia, it was know for a very long time. 45 years ago, we knew about it. It wasn't a secret that I know of.

Boris, Stalin did not promote Hitler in 1933. Hitler hated Slavs and Russians were no different. He hated Communism. They made a pact, because Stalin was not ready for war, which he knew would come, Hitler, too, was not quite ready to fight. Each lunatic thought he had outsmarted the other. Hitler struck first, on September 22, 1941. Hitler's ideas for the domination of the world, did not include Stalin as his pal. The Russians suffered greatly during the war, but they were extremely brave and steadfast. Great Generals like Zhukov did hurt. Also, knowing you would be killed, kept any thoughts of surrender away. The Ukraine allied itself with Germany.

 

[ysbel]

Lexi, please, re-read (for example) chapters XIV and XV of R.Massie’s book (“Nicholas and Alexandra”). Each author, who wrote about a wonderful Alexi's recover in Spale (autumn of 1912) named it miracle of Rasputin. And it was not the unique case when Rasputin has rescued Alexi.
Boris

Boris, do you have a copy of Massie's book handy so you can give us the passage in the book where Massie calls this incident a miracle?

As long as the quote is less than a page, it should be alright to post it here without getting in trouble with copyright laws.

 

[lexi4]

Lex, check the library. That's where I got a lot of the books I read to get on this obsession. The library is really good for letting you put a hold on a book and have it transferred from one location to another.
I read the book about Maria but not by Maria and yes, she did paint a rosy picture, saying that when her father was home everything was grand. But I would find something wrong with that, a father being gone, making a pilgrimage all over the place and not with their family. To me, that's not being God-like, God, IMO, made families to stick to gether.

I have to agree. Just as I don't think hanging out in the bath house and drinking was particularly god-like.
Lexi

 

[lexi4]

According to Sandro's memoirs, upon learning that Rasputin was dead the Dowager Empress's reaction was: "the Lord be praised for taking away Rasputin.."
The Rasputin situation was an embarassment for other members of the Imperial Family.

 

[lexi4]

Boris, do you have a copy of Massie's book handy so you can give us the passage in the book where Massie calls this incident a miracle?

As long as the quote is less than a page, it should be alright to post it here without getting in trouble with copyright laws.

I just skimmed through my copy of Massie's Nicholas & Alexandra and did not find where Massie called it a miracle. He does offer a medical explanation for what happened at Spala. He also discusses how obscure the crisis at Spala was. He said the telegram Rasputin sent actually offered good medical advice: "Do not allow the doctors to bother him too much."
In my copy of the book this is all on pages 186-189.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

I agree he was not a bad man and his intentions were good.

None of us really know what his pure intentions were. We, the audience, are only going by what others tell us or what certain sources are revealed to us. One must assume from his actions what his intentions were, and its always inconclusive. As a result, that's why we still debate about it. Essentially, the answer as to who Rasputin was, his intentions, was or was he not a con artist, etc., is unknowable.


To sum up and a line from Seinfeld, "Do you think a kid that's named Rasputin would grow upto be a normal person?"

 

[COUNTESS]

Oh, I love that line. Thanks for the laugh. You are all right, who knows what his intentions were. I have never, actually, figured it out. I, think, what happened in Spala was several things. His advice about stopping the doctors from touching Alexei is was good advice. The bleeding abated after a period of time. Alix was calmer, which made Alexei calmer. None of us know or will ever know. Just a good discussion.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

No problem, that episode was on prior to my last post... so you know I just had to put that line in there.

 

[lexi4]

While we may never know his intentions, his impact on the fall of the Imperial family isn't debatable, imho. Many of Nicholas's closest advisor/friends ended up estranged from him because of Rasputin. Besides inept, I also think Nicholas felt great panic not knowing how ridding the place of Rasputin would affect his son or his wife.

 

[ysbel]

I just skimmed through my copy of Massie's Nicholas & Alexandra and did not find where Massie called it a miracle. He does offer a medical explanation for what happened at Spala. He also discusses how obscure the crisis at Spala was. He said the telegram Rasputin sent actually offered good medical advice: "Do not allow the doctors to bother him too much."
In my copy of the book this is all on pages 186-189.

Thanks lexi. I know we want to be careful about copyright laws but when it comes to books of several hundreds of pages, sometimes its easier to explain to people by quoting a small page or couple of paragraphs from the book rather than spend many more words trying to explain what the book says.

And quoting a couple of paragraphs or a page is not going to get us in trouble with the copyright police.

The enigma of Rasputin was most interesting to Robert Massie. As you all probably know, Massie's own son suffered from hemophilia and Robert Massie first became acquainted with the story of Nicholas and Alexandra when he was researching other families who had dealt with hemophilia.

In Nicholas and Alexandra, he was particularly interested in Rasputin's methods mainly for his own son. He and his wife wrote another book about their own experiences of raising a hemophiliac son and it is simply heartwrenching. In that book he mentions how struck he was with the idea that Rasputin hypnotized Alexis to slow down the flow of blood. He discussed it in great detail with his children's dentist who also had three hemophiliac sons (for hemophiliacs, choosing the right dentist was important because pulling teeth could start a bleeding fit that would last for days - even in Massie's time). Both he and his dentist tried to hypnotize their sons to stop a bleeding episode and found that it had mixed results.

 

[lexi4]

Thank you Ysbel. Had I found a sentence with the word miracle in it, I would have quoted it. I just skimmed the pages about Spala, but didn't find the word.

Yes, I was aware of Massie's son. I have not read the book he and his wife wrote. Perhaps I should add that to my list.


Here is one sentence from Massie about Spala. I think it says a lot.
"The part played by Rasputin's telegram in Alexis' recovery at Spala remains one of the most mysterious episodes of the whole Rasputin legend. None of the doctors present ever discussed it in writing. Anna Vyrubova, the link between Rasputin and the Empress, writes of the telegram and the boy's recovery without comment or evaluation."

He goes on to say that Nicholas didn't even mention the telegram to his own mother when he wrote to tell her all was well with Alexi.
I wonder if Anna was/is the only source on the telegram?