Grigori Efimovich Rasputin (1869-1916)

[delincolon]

Read the book

Alexandra may have been tolerant, but the Tsar definitely wasn't. And it's not that he may have been an advocate, he was. And most historians agree about that, but gloss over it because it's not a concern for them. The Jews of Russia were oppressed and denied rights for centuries.

Many of his faults were exaggerated to discredit him, and were also faults of those pointing fingers. The people Rasputin tried to have appointed were people who would grant the Jews equal rights, or advocate for peace instead of war. Of course, if you want to discredit him and make it appear there was no logic behind this, you could say that he chose candidates for ridiculous reasons.

I think the Tsar brought the Tsar down more than anyone. He was weak willed and indecisive. I don't think you would have found too many common folk, Jews and peasants, who were unhappy about getting out from under the Tsar's oppressive thumb when he abdicated. The Jews left in droves, during the Romanov rule, to live in countries such as the U.S. and Canada where they could pursue a decent life without the threat of death hanging over them. Ironically, once the Tsar was gone, the Jews were given freedom, the land was dispersed to peasants to farm, and the government made sure that everyone had food, handing out ration cards. Under Nicholas II, if you were starving, you died. The Tsar was completely against modernizing and entering the industrial era. All these things that happened after the abdication, were recommendations Rasputin made to the Tsar. Had he listened, the 1917 Revolution might have been avoided.

I've read a couple of hundred books on the subject and authored one: "Rasputin and The Jews: A Reversal of History". One thing I've discovered is that the French historians (as well as some Russian ones) are much more interested in looking at Rasputin in a less sensationalist, gossipy way than American or English-speaking biographers are.

And, of course, if your ancestors didn't endure the horrors of living in the ghetto and suffering the raids, under Nicholas II's rule, it's alien territory and of little importance.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

V. Markos, you're right and I assume everyone agrees that Rasputin helped bring down the Romanov's. I have to re-read N&A, but I wonder why he was so adamant that Nicholas leave St. Petersburg for the front. I do think the disaster that occurred after was more Nicholas and Alexandra's fault due to their lack of perception and understanding.

 

[delincolon]

What Brought Down the Romanovs

What brought down the Romanovs was that people were hungry, treated poorly, had terrible working conditions and were sick of being treated like animals. Don't forget, there was also a revolution in 1905, before Rasputin became involved with the royal family. That, too, happened because the people were tired of the disparity between their own horrific conditions and the wildly decadent aristocrats. Like the Jews, Rasputin had been a scapegoat for Russia's ills. The royals cared little about the common people. In fact, Sergei Witte, in his own memoirs, tells of an officer reporting the army's slaughter of the Jews in one town, while the army was retreating from the Germans. The Tsar's reply was to ask how this concerned him. Alexandra wrote to him telling him he should keep it quiet, or they might not get the loans from other countries that they'd applied for.

The royals were completely out of touch. Karma's a strange thing. Once the royals were held captive and Vyrubova confined, they wrote to each other, bitterly complaining about their freedom being curtailed, how they weren't permitted to receive or do certain things, or go anywhere, in addition to their belongings being constantly searched. This was exactly what the common people lived through under their regime - a taste of their own medicine, so to speak. Although they certainly didn't deserve to die, at least they weren't tortured beforehand, as others were under their rule.

Royalty is all pretty on the outside, but underneath, it's often built on the pain and suffering of those they rule.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Alexandra may have been tolerant, but the Tsar definitely wasn't. And it's not that he may have been an advocate, he was. And most historians agree about that, but gloss over it because it's not a concern for them. The Jews of Russia were oppressed and denied rights for centuries.


And, of course, if your ancestors didn't endure the horrors of living in the ghetto and suffering the raids, under Nicholas II's rule, it's alien territory and of little importance.

My dear Delincolon,

I never wrote or said that the Tsar was tolerant of Jews. I merely pointed out that Alexandra was tolerant of other religious beliefs to illustrate my thought that others, such as Rasputin, could hold similar beliefs. And I never said the Jews of Russia were not oppressed, nor do I find the Tsar's behavior to be admirable when so many of his people suffered.

I also think you go too far in writing that if one's ancestors never suffered under the Tsar's yoke or lived in a ghetto, one finds such things to be of little importance. That is like saying that if one never suffered child abuse, one cannot understand the misery nor be revulsed by such behavior. I have never held with those who categorize or stereotype or oppress others because of skin color, religious beliefs, gender, age, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.

It is clear that you believe historians have maligned Rasputin and you have obviously made it a focus of your book. I will have to read it and then draw my own conclusion. Until then, can you also list the French historians and others whom you trust to offer an honest portrayal of Rasputin? I am curious to learn more about him because nothing I have read to date offers much in the way of praising him.

One more question: in your studies, did you find anything bad about Rasputin or any wrong decision he made at the time? In other words, did he have feet of clay like the rest of us and did he also act in any manner to make people dislike him, other than supporting the Jews of Tsarist Russia?

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

The mere idea that Rasputin was only hated because he liked Jews is laughable.
This is rather off topic, but I've been debating whether Alexander or Nicholas' treatment of the Jews was more revolting; I find I can't even give them a pass based on the times they lived in.
Back to Rasputin, again I find the problems he "caused" were his fault along with Alexandra and Nicholas for indulging her. Alexandra seemed to have a mentality like modern superstars surrounded by sycophants, they refuse to listen to reason and look at things from other peoples perspective, when someone disagreed with her about Rasputin she cut them off. Even her own sister! If she had been willing to to realize that there perhaps was a problem with Rasputin she could have perhaps asked that he change his behavior. I highly doubt he would have turned his back on her and stopped helping Alexei.

 

[delincolon]

I apologize if I've offended you. It's just that I've heard from some others that they thought anti-Semitism was a flimsy excuse for hating Rasputin. If you read French, I highly recommend:
"Raspoutine" by Andrei Amalrik
"Raspoutine" by Michel De Enden
"Raspoutine Est Innocent" by Alain Rouiller
"Raspoutine - Une Tragedie Russe" by Yves Ternon

Also, check out "Rasputin: Neither Devil Nor Saint" by Dr. Elizabeth Judas
The only thing I didn't like about Judas was that she published, in her book, the very famous photo of Rasputin surrounded by his followers, having inserted her own picture in place of Rasputin's father's in the original. However, she did know him throughout her childhood and early adulthood.

Thank you, by the way, for taking seriously what I had to say. And, again, I'm sorry if I came on strong, but like other authors who have tried to rectify Rasputin's image, I've found it to be an uphill battle, with many set on believing the fiction and not being open to the reality. And I truly appreciated the diplomacy of your reply. Peace, my friend.

 

[delincolon]

Xenia

As 'laughable' as it may seem to you, anyone who helped the Jews was viewed as a traitor. And Alexander II was probably the most liberal of Tsars, even though there were still many restrictions. The Jews mourned his death. Alexander III was pretty much on a par with Nicholas II (and I). The laws restricting residency, occupation and education for Jews were largely the same, as were the pogroms. Grand Duke Nikolai Nikolayevitch was one of the worst offenders, having his men slaughter any Jews they came across, during their retreat from the Germans. That kind of hatred fosters a prejudice that taints anyone who comes to the aid of the minority. Not so laughable.

The mere idea that Rasputin was only hated because he liked Jews is laughable.
This is rather off topic, but I've been debating whether Alexander or Nicholas' treatment of the Jews was more revolting; I find I can't even give them a pass based on the times they lived in.
Back to Rasputin, again I find the problems he "caused" were his fault along with Alexandra and Nicholas for indulging her. Alexandra seemed to have a mentality like modern superstars surrounded by sycophants, they refuse to listen to reason and look at things from other peoples perspective, when someone disagreed with her about Rasputin she cut them off. Even her own sister! If she had been willing to to realize that there perhaps was a problem with Rasputin she could have perhaps asked that he change his behavior. I highly doubt he would have turned his back on her and stopped helping Alexei.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Delincolon,

I was not offended and thank you for your gracious response. I am afraid I do not read French but perhaps I can find some other works on Rasputin. I am always ready to readjust my beliefs and I do realize that some authors may have built in biases or agendas or whatnots. To some extent, all historical works can be somewhat subjective but hey, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and should be allowed to state it without fear of attack.

I know that Roman historians castigated Cleopatra and smeared her as a way to validate their conquest of Egypt. Rasputin may have been smeared for similar reasons. People always want a villain and Rasputin probably fills that role for many. In this forum dedicated to royals, you will probably find few that may agree with you because of the tragic execution of the Tsar's family along with him and Alexandra. But this is a forum for discussion on and about royals, both good and bad.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I am no monarchist nor do I have a problem placing the blame for the revolution on Nicholas and Alexandra. They were two of the worst people who could have been chosen to be autocrats. My problem is only taking one authors view and stating it as the only fact,bthe only reason Rasputin was killed was because he liked Jews; then taking everything he did and making it about that one issue. Rasputin was hated by a lot of people not just the aristocracy, they just happened to be the ones who killed him.
My point is, if his support of Jews was a factor, that it wasn't the only factor. I won't ignore the history of the bad things he did and his bad behavior just because a book comes out that highlights only his good qualities.
In the story of the Romanovs, the villains are the people who murdered them; I for one don't need GR to fill that role.

 

[delincolon]

Xenia

One author's view? I've read well over a hundred books on the subject. I've taken many authors viewpoints into consideration and quoted many in my book. The problem I have is when folks speak in general about Rasputin's "bad behavior". Just what behavior are we talking about? Are you speaking of the same decadent bad behavior all of the aristocracy took part in? Are you speaking of his efforts to have cabinet members appointed who would end the war and free the Jews? His begging Nicholas: not to send soldiers into war without ammunition; to keep down the black market prices on food, so everyone could afford to eat; to give the peasants land to farm so the nation would have more food; to visit the factory workers to show his support? Much of his advice was common sense. But Nicholas was stubborn.

No one ever gets really specific about why he's considered bad. Just what horrible things are we talking about? And were they horrible just because he was a peasant - but would have been acceptable if he was a nobleman? He was hated primarily by the aristocracy, the bureaucracy and the clergy... not by the common man. He helped thousands of common folks. And it wasn't just because he liked Jews - it was because he helped them. There are many issues addressed in the book, but this one kept popping up in my reading. And I never said it was the ONLY reason he was killed. Never talked about why he was killed. He was killed because Yussupov thought it would make the aristocracy and the government happy. I'm not concerned nor do I discuss why he was killed. You drew that conclusion on your own. I said that his aid to Jews was the primary reason he was maligned - depicted as evil. I discuss how he was discredited, not how or why he died. Although, Yussupov even wrote, in his memoirs, that the night he killed him, Rasputin spoke to him of defending and advocating for the Jews and asked Yussupov why shouldn't he do that.

I'm not sure if you're very young or just know very little about the pervasiveness of anti-Semitism, or that you haven't read that many books about Rasputin (it's discussed in the memoirs of all who knew him). However, at many times in history, entire societies have turned on "that one issue", as you say. That you don't believe that a person could be hated or vilified for that reason (though millions have been killed for that reason), shows a bit of naivete.

I don't take "everything he did" and make it about one issue. I can't rewrite the book here for you, but there are chapters on all different phases of his life, all different aspects of his character, but you can't critique the book simply based on a paragraph summary - nor conclude what it's about. You've already drawn a number of fallacious conclusions and put words in my mouth.

So, I'm interested to know what you think the 'bad things' were.

I am no monarchist nor do I have a problem placing the blame for the revolution on Nicholas and Alexandra. They were two of the worst people who could have been chosen to be autocrats. My problem is only taking one authors view and stating it as the only fact,bthe only reason Rasputin was killed was because he liked Jews; then taking everything he did and making it about that one issue. Rasputin was hated by a lot of people not just the aristocracy, they just happened to be the ones who killed him.
My point is, if his support of Jews was a factor, that it wasn't the only factor. I won't ignore the history of the bad things he did and his bad behavior just because a book comes out that highlights only his good qualities.
In the story of the Romanovs, the villains are the people who murdered them; I for one don't need GR to fill that role.

 

[Russophile]

Delin Colon, have you read Radzinski's book on Rasputin?

 

[delincolon]

Delin Colon, have you read Radzinski's book on Rasputin?

Of course, I've read Radzinsky. It's in my bibliography. Though he barely touches on the Jewish situation, he, too, says that many Jews were grateful to Rasputin for his help.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

DC, first of all do not make assumptions about me, my age or my education; i have not gone personal with you so Do Not go there with me. From reading your paragraph after paragraph of rants i take it you know everythingyou know what the bad things Rasputin did do and was accussed of doing. Your excuse for it is just "everyone else" was doing it or apparently was doing. I've stated before the hatred towards him spread beyond the aristocracy. Was he a scapegoat yes, but he did not help his situation with the way he treated everyone from government officials to everyday people. His sexual antics, assaults and semi-assaults, some of whom were against the wrong people etc., You just happen to believe this was all made up or that it was no big deal because everyone, especially the hated aristocracy, were acting like that.
In your belief his interfering with politics is ok because it was all for the Jews of Russia. I for one don't believe that, again it might have been part of the reason but not the whole reason. With Rasputin it was a build up of various things; he was not politically savvy so he didn't know how to play the game and as a result he offended and rubbed people the wrong way which prevented his cause due to his behavior. Second, Rasputin wanted to help the oppressed of Russia, including the Jewish population; good for him I admire his courage, but there is a time to play the game of politics blindly and he chose the wrong time! Russia was sinking fast and it needed ministers who could try to alleviate the situation; not a merry go round of people Rasputin just didnt like or as you say didn't believe in his cause. The worse things became in Russia during the last years the main people to blame were Alix AND Rasputin. Both of them together was horrible from a PR standpoint because they were both hated and there was too much secrecy around them. That secrecy was more Alexandra's fault and if she had been honest with people instead of ignoring their concerns things might have been different. Rasputin's prescence would have been explained and perhaps it would make sense to some if not the majority. But still the government who was trying to remain afloat would still not want him involved in it; he and Alexandra just made things worse. He was a great healer who cared about the oppressed, she was a wonderful mother and loving wife; but neither of them was suited for working in or for the government, Nicholas was the Tsar and not even he could do it right. All 3 appear to have had the same problem of not being able to see the bigger picture, especially what was really important at the time in Russia.

Either way I am not going to clutter up this board with the same debate about how good or bad Rasputin was. History will always have different view points on the same events. If you have anything else to add specifically to me feel free to PM. Otherwise I am moving on to other aspects of Rasputin and will leave this specific aspect to you and others. Will look for your book L8s

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Reading N&A by Massie, he is hypothesizing about how Alexei was healed at Spala; anyone have any theories on what exactly happened and how Rasputin pulled it off?

 

[Russophile]

Of course, I've read Radzinsky. It's in my bibliography. Though he barely touches on the Jewish situation, he, too, says that many Jews were grateful to Rasputin for his help.

I own that book. Might I trouble you to tell me where in the book I may look to find that piece of information? Many thanks!

 

[COUNTESS]

Edvard Radzinky, Russo?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Reading N&A by Massie, he is hypothesizing about how Alexei was healed at Spala; anyone have any theories on what exactly happened and how Rasputin pulled it off?

My dear XeniaCasaraghi,

If memory serves, I think Massie thought the reassuring telegram from Rasputin calmed Alexandra and this in turn calmed Alexis, which may have led to lower blood pressure? and stopped the bleeding. It is clear that mother and son had a close bond and maybe when she was calm, he too settled down. I know my dog picks up on all of my moods immediately.

The power of the mind is amazing. I read a book about miraculous recoveries from cancer and although the authors concluded that there was no one cure, for some people their recovery from terminal cancer was a case of mind over matter.

 

[Tsaritsa]

I believe that, on certain occasions, a quiet, calm voice can do what science can't. I have used this "trick" on people suffering panic attacks and it has always worked. I imagine that in the same way that stroking an animal can lower bloodpressure, the tone of voice can reduce fear levels. It was probably how Rasputin "managed" Alexei, who in times of crisis must have longed for his presence. Given the faith in which Alexei held him, it may have been enough for his mother to tell him that " Father Grigori says....." for the bleeding to slow down. Did not Pavlov do something similar with dogs?

 

[delincolon]

I own that book. Might I trouble you to tell me where in the book I may look to find that piece of information? Many thanks!

It's toward the end, where he talks about Simanovitch's escape from Russia.

 

[Russophile]

@ COUNTESS, yes.
@delincolon Many thanks. Russo has been dealing with a pinched nerve which has made it extremely difficult to drive, let alone type or turn pages in a book.

 

[delincolon]

@ COUNTESS, yes.
@delincolon Many thanks. Russo has been dealing with a pinched nerve which has made it extremely difficult to drive, let alone type or turn pages in a book.

Russo - please get well soon. I know how painful and incapacitating that can be. All my best wishes.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Russo my dear,

You need a healer like Rasputin! Sorry, could not help myself. It is time for Mr. Russo to step up to the plate and turn the pages of royal biographies for you. I hope you feel better soon.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I think my mother has pinched nerves. And the comment about not being able to drive reminds me of my grandmother, she had horrible arthritis in her hands yet continued to drive; I was young but even I wondered to myself "something is not safe about this situation". Anyway back to Russia, in modern times people who have hemophilia attacks get transfusions, but I wonder if any scientist or doctor has attempted to calm them down with a mere calm voice and nobody panicking to see if it can really cease the bleedings. It does make some sense to me seeing as how the more upset and anxious you are the more your heart pumps blood.

 

[lucien]

Russo,get well soon!

Back to the topic,and to the point on Rasputin.

Never before a book was published with such astounding detail on the
murder of Grigori Efimovitch Rasputin as "Rasputin" by Margarita Nelipa.

The auteur had access to all original documents,in their original language,ofcourse.And as she masters Russian as her 2nd language,
the documents revealed more then any of the auteurs on the subject had seen let alone researched,before.It goes into minute details on the weapons,bullets and angels,and the treason from within.It is as captivating as it is true.Word for word.Syllable by syllable,No twisting of facts by disney people,or by start-ups who love to give history a twist that never was,nor by treadmill auteurs forced by their publishers to just deliver a load of paper annually with words from hear say and claiming it's a book,and more,claim it's all about facts.....No!This book is the "Bible" on the subject of this thread.

No-one with knowledge can deny it is that,the Book that sets aside anything written before on Grigori Rasputin.

Availeble at van Hoogstraaten,The Hague,the treasure trove next to the Palace.A must for all affeccionados of Russian history of that period.

 

[Russophile]

Thank you for the well wishes, however, no such luck for Russo. Been to the chiro twice and a massage therapist, back to chiro next week I am sure. I have "The Flight of the Romanovs" All ready to be picked up at the library and cannot get there. . . *sigh*

Xenia, I read in a book, I think it was the Rene Fulop-Miller book Rasputin: The Holy Devil, or Joseph T. Fuhrmann's book Rasputin: A Life; that it was not uncommon in parts of Russia that there were those people who worked with animals possessed a gift of calming the animals down and indeed staunching their blood flow when there was an injury.

Pardon my mistakes and grammer, being now a south paw does not suit Russo.

 

[delincolon]

Russo,get well soon!

Back to the topic,and to the point on Rasputin.

Never before a book was published with such astounding detail on the
murder of Grigori Efimovitch Rasputin as "Rasputin" by Margarita Nelipa.

The auteur had access to all original documents,in their original language,ofcourse.And as she masters Russian as her 2nd language,
the documents revealed more then any of the auteurs on the subject had seen let alone researched,before.It goes into minute details on the weapons,bullets and angels,and the treason from within.It is as captivating as it is true.Word for word.Syllable by syllable,No twisting of facts by disney people,or by start-ups who love to give history a twist that never was,nor by treadmill auteurs forced by their publishers to just deliver a load of paper annually with words from hear say and claiming it's a book,and more,claim it's all about facts.....No!This book is the "Bible" on the subject of this thread.

No-one with knowledge can deny it is that,the Book that sets aside anything written before on Grigori Rasputin.

Availeble at van Hoogstraaten,The Hague,the treasure trove next to the Palace.A must for all affeccionados of Russian history of that period.

Certainly, Nelipa's book is the bible on his death. I have only dealt with his life and my book is well researched (12 years of it), well footnoted, and I've not put any spins on history - only quoted those who were there, as well as many biographers. If you check out the reviews on Amazon, many editors and book reviewers have found it enlightening. Certainly, it's not a popular subject and never has been. People are always reluctant to give up what they've been accustomed to hearing. Information contrary to what they believe to be true creates cognitive dissonance.

 

[Warren]

As we found when the "Anna Anderson was Anastasia" myth was debunked once and for all in March 2009.

 

[lucien]

Certainly, Nelipa's book is the bible on his death. I have only dealt with his life and my book is well researched (12 years of it), well footnoted, and I've not put any spins on history - only quoted those who were there, as well as many biographers. If you check out the reviews on Amazon, many editors and book reviewers have found it enlightening. Certainly, it's not a popular subject and never has been. People are always reluctant to give up what they've been accustomed to hearing. Information contrary to what they believe to be true creates cognitive dissonance.

Oh yes,I see.But then those who were there,all gave their own twist to the story,as they'd experienced all of it from their own perception.You didn't have to give more twists,it was already done.But ok,it sells...probably..Not really my taste,nah,pardon me.Hear say alone does not nor will not impress me,there are too many of those already,and certainly not with a claim of wellwrought researce added to that.Well,you've been busy and it kept you of the streets.That's good..

 

[lucien]

Thank you for the well wishes, however, no such luck for Russo. Been to the chiro twice and a massage therapist, back to chiro next week I am sure. I have "The Flight of the Romanovs" All ready to be picked up at the library and cannot get there. . . *sigh*

Xenia, I read in a book, I think it was the Rene Fulop-Miller book Rasputin: The Holy Devil, or Joseph T. Fuhrmann's book Rasputin: A Life; that it was not uncommon in parts of Russia that there were those people who worked with animals possessed a gift of calming the animals down and indeed staunching their blood flow when there was an injury.

Pardon my mistakes and grammer, being now a south paw does not suit Russo.

Amazing isn't Russo,the "Flight of the Romanovs" have send you into flights to the chiro AND a massage therapist instead....Wow!How on heavens and earth did you get in that position?Just teasing,but I do feel with you poor man.I hope you are close to your samovar for tea,or have good assistance to get around the house? A South paw?Hmm,that too?Most unfortunate.
Get well soon!!

 

[Russophile]

Lucien, I believe I was lifting weights at the gym too hard with Mr. Russo. Still experiencing numbness in my forefingers.
Alas! The book went back, you only get a certain number of days at the library with which to pick it up--you don't get it, you lose it. Now I have to call it back, however, it is lovely that we have such an extensive library system to be able to get ahold of that book. Mr. Russo would kill me were I to buy yet ANOTHER Romanov book to store in our house. .. . .

Delincolon, in passing, I am looking at pages 280-281 in Radzinski's work. It looks to me like the Jewish population wasn't above "buying" Rasputin for their own ends. Radzinski quotes him as saying (via Varvarova) "I received 10,000 from Rubinstein today, so we shall have a fine binge."