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  #41  
Old 02-29-2008, 06:06 PM
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It is natural for most women to like the "forbidden" or "bad boy".
Rasputin never "cured" Alexi, just relieved the symptoms. Alexi was diagnosed with hemophilia (whether or not he had full-blown, I'm not sure).
Off the top of my head I know Rasputin was available at the Spala incident, Lex, help me out here, wasn't it Massie who has Rasputin calling to help Alexi?
And Lex, if you type a word, this forum will put a red line under it telling you it's spelt wrong so you can right click and you can correct it.
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  #42  
Old 02-29-2008, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BorisRom View Post
Lexi wrote:
"Boris, there is no way to prove this scientifically or conclusively. What we are left with are Nicholas & Alexandra's perceptions of his abilities. It is hard to know, from their writings, what he acutally did and wether or not it would have happened anyway. Rasputin himself said that there were times he used drugs in healing. Whether or not he did in this case, we can't know"

Lexi, please, re-read (for example) chapters XIV and XV of R.Massie’s book (“Nicholas and Alexandra”). Each author, who wrote about a wonderful Alexi's recover in Spale (autumn of 1912) named it miracle of Rasputin. And it was not the unique case when Rasputin has rescued Alexi.
Boris
Dear Boris,
Massie calling it a miracle and attibuting it to Rasputin does not make it so. It is merely Massie's perspective, which is somewhat bias. I would think that if such a mircle did occur it would be attributed to God, not Rasputin.
Lexi
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  #43  
Old 02-29-2008, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sofajr View Post
I have understood that most of members have negative position on Rasputin. but why? he was a person of his epoch with specific features and destiny. I believe that he did't want to do hurm to russia and russian royalty. For Tsar and Tsaritsa he represented the whole people of the country, actually he was one of that category. Rasputin was a peasant who never lost summer to crop grains to feed the family. but more important he tried to help Nikolay and Alexandra Fedorovna to save life for their child and inheritant.
Yes, Rasputin thied to interfere in politics, but according to almoust all saficient russian sources, his opinion was the same as Nikolay had.

about the book of Matryona (Maria in english manner) Rasputina - I found the part of it in russian. when will finish it, mat write little summary if somebody is interested.
I agree he was not a bad man and his intentions were good. I really don't know if his destiny was good or evil, but I do believe he served a large historical purpose in Russia and I do believe he did not mean any harm.

I like Rasputin, I always have, and I find him fascinating and likeable. To me he's one of the more lively and interesting characters in the whole drama. Have you seen how he is portrayed in Nicholas and Alexandra? At times so deeply mystical, at other times, hilarious!

Rasputin was also supposed to have cured Anna Vyrubova after a terrible train wreck in 1915. Doctors pronounced her too far gone for hope and triaged her with the dead. When her parents, and Alexandra, tried to have her moved to a bed, the doctors said there was no need, she would be dead soon. In her delirium she called out for Rasputin. While no one sent for him, he somehow found out and rushed to her side. The story goes that he held her hand and called her name three times. He told her to rise, and she said she hadn't the strength. He told her, take mine- and he stood over her holding her until she awoke. He said she would live but her legs would be crippled. He was so used up he passed out in the floor covered in sweat and had to be taken for treatment himself, but she lived to the ripe old age of 80. You can read this story in Anna's book "Memories of the Russian Court"

Memories of the Russian Court - an online book on Romanov Russia - Welcome Page

I also like his last words to her, when she went to his apartment the night he died to warn him. "What more do you want from me?" he told her. "Already, you have received all."
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  #44  
Old 02-29-2008, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by lexi4 View Post
Dear Boris,
Massie calling it a miracle and attibuting it to Rasputin does not make it so. It is merely Massie's perspective, which is somewhat bias. I would think that if such a mircle did occur it would be attributed to God, not Rasputin.
Lexi
Yes, Lexi!
Rasputin prayed to God that God has helped Alexi. And... God has helped. It is a usual practice of deeply believing healers (Christian and others) from the most ancient times up to now. Not only Rasputin treated people in such a way. In the beginning of XX century the priest John Kronshtadtsky has cured prays for the Bulgarian tsarevitch Boris (the Bulgarian tsar has sent him(to John) the telegram with this request). There are many other examples of similar healings.
Here there is nothing "surprising" for believing people. It is "simple a miracle". Certainly, scientists cannot explain it till now, but they (scientists) move ahead in research of these phenomena. For example, scientists have opened, that brain biorhythms of a praying (deeply praying) believing person are similar to biorhythms of the chest baby and it promotes healing from illnesses.
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  #45  
Old 02-29-2008, 07:52 PM
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Anna,
I do remember reading about that. But again, there is no sceinctific evidence. It is a story that has been passed down and no doubt embellished with time. Did it happen? I don't know. Something probably did.
Lexi
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  #46  
Old 02-29-2008, 07:54 PM
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I am only telling the stories, you conclude what you want. The version I read was in Massie's book, in Anna's, she says she had to be told of the incident because she was unconscious until the end.
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  #47  
Old 02-29-2008, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I am only telling the stories, you conclude what you want. The version I read was in Massie's book, in Anna's, she says she had to be told of the incident because she was unconscious until the end.
Anna,
I meant no offense. But if we are going to discuss/analyze Rasputin and his alleged powers, we have to look at all sides.

Lexi
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  #48  
Old 02-29-2008, 08:22 PM
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"Neither style of government gave a decent life to the average Russian. More average Russians benefited in the USSR than in Imperial Russia. At least, education became important. There was fear and secrecy in both styles of government. They didn't blow up Tsar and Grand Dukes for the heck of it. They were tyrants, too." I absolutely agree, Countess. The USSR was a step ahead to modern life, in relation to monarchy, not heaven. They even became the second military power in the world and participated in the space researches, besides the improvements in health and education. It was something terrible to murder those lovely children, that crime was a bad beginning for the revolution. I think that it is suggestion, either hypnotic or psychological, what sometimes cures. The immune system reacts positively when the person believes that someone can cure him/her (doctor, priest, etc.) But only psychosomatic, fake diseases can be completely cured in that way. Rasputin relieved the symptoms of the child and ignorant parents believed mistakenly that he could cure him. I think that in 1917 the science could explain to the parents the hemophilia problem, but they wanted to believe in Rasputin. Denial, ignorance, whatever.
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  #49  
Old 02-29-2008, 08:46 PM
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I would like to know if anyone could give us information about how the other royal families talked or though about Rasputin, because i think that the Rusia Imperial Family had very closed relation with their relatives in Great Bretain, Denmark and Hesse.
I like very much history from my childhood and i was always very interested in the last Romanov, about Rasputin and about the Hemophillic illness of Alexey. But for me was a very surprise descover that also in the Royal Spanish family had had the same trouble because two of the son of Alfonso XIII and Ena had the hemophilia, Prince of Asturias Alfonso and Infant Gonzalo, in fact both died for a car crased injuries that provocated a emorrhage. I don´t know if in Spanish was so secret these illness like in Rusia, i supposed that in this time had to be secret, but what i was surprised is that i knew the hemophille in the Royal Spanish family very late, may be only ten years ago.
Does anyone information about if these two Royal Family exchanged information about this illness?
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  #50  
Old 02-29-2008, 09:22 PM
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They hated him. Queen Alexandra of England, sister to the Dowger Tsarina, said, " That wretched monk caused tremendous sensation in the world, but is only regretted by poor dear Alicky who might have ruined the future of Russia through his influence." That was from a letter to her son King George V. Grand Duchess Elizabeth, Alexandra's sister, dispised him, Grand Duchess Xenia and Olga, as well as the Doweger Tsarina disliked him. The Danish Royal Family as well as the German Royal Family couldn not countenance his being so close to the throne. As far as the Spanish Royal Family and haemophilia, it was know for a very long time. 45 years ago, we knew about it. It wasn't a secret that I know of.

Boris, Stalin did not promote Hitler in 1933. Hitler hated Slavs and Russians were no different. He hated Communism. They made a pact, because Stalin was not ready for war, which he knew would come, Hitler, too, was not quite ready to fight. Each lunatic thought he had outsmarted the other. Hitler struck first, on September 22, 1941. Hitler's ideas for the domination of the world, did not include Stalin as his pal. The Russians suffered greatly during the war, but they were extremely brave and steadfast. Great Generals like Zhukov did hurt. Also, knowing you would be killed, kept any thoughts of surrender away. The Ukraine allied itself with Germany.
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  #51  
Old 02-29-2008, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by BorisRom View Post

Lexi, please, re-read (for example) chapters XIV and XV of R.Massie’s book (“Nicholas and Alexandra”). Each author, who wrote about a wonderful Alexi's recover in Spale (autumn of 1912) named it miracle of Rasputin. And it was not the unique case when Rasputin has rescued Alexi.
Boris
Boris, do you have a copy of Massie's book handy so you can give us the passage in the book where Massie calls this incident a miracle?

As long as the quote is less than a page, it should be alright to post it here without getting in trouble with copyright laws.
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  #52  
Old 02-29-2008, 10:05 PM
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Lex, check the library. That's where I got a lot of the books I read to get on this obsession. The library is really good for letting you put a hold on a book and have it transferred from one location to another.
I read the book about Maria but not by Maria and yes, she did paint a rosy picture, saying that when her father was home everything was grand. But I would find something wrong with that, a father being gone, making a pilgrimage all over the place and not with their family. To me, that's not being God-like, God, IMO, made families to stick to gether.
I have to agree. Just as I don't think hanging out in the bath house and drinking was particularly god-like.
Lexi
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  #53  
Old 02-29-2008, 10:17 PM
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According to Sandro's memoirs, upon learning that Rasputin was dead the Dowager Empress's reaction was: "the Lord be praised for taking away Rasputin.."
The Rasputin situation was an embarassment for other members of the Imperial Family.
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  #54  
Old 02-29-2008, 10:26 PM
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Boris, do you have a copy of Massie's book handy so you can give us the passage in the book where Massie calls this incident a miracle?

As long as the quote is less than a page, it should be alright to post it here without getting in trouble with copyright laws.
I just skimmed through my copy of Massie's Nicholas & Alexandra and did not find where Massie called it a miracle. He does offer a medical explanation for what happened at Spala. He also discusses how obscure the crisis at Spala was. He said the telegram Rasputin sent actually offered good medical advice: "Do not allow the doctors to bother him too much."
In my copy of the book this is all on pages 186-189.
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  #55  
Old 02-29-2008, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I agree he was not a bad man and his intentions were good.

None of us really know what his pure intentions were. We, the audience, are only going by what others tell us or what certain sources are revealed to us. One must assume from his actions what his intentions were, and its always inconclusive. As a result, that's why we still debate about it. Essentially, the answer as to who Rasputin was, his intentions, was or was he not a con artist, etc., is unknowable.


To sum up and a line from Seinfeld, "Do you think a kid that's named Rasputin would grow upto be a normal person?"
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  #56  
Old 02-29-2008, 10:37 PM
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Oh, I love that line. Thanks for the laugh. You are all right, who knows what his intentions were. I have never, actually, figured it out. I, think, what happened in Spala was several things. His advice about stopping the doctors from touching Alexei is was good advice. The bleeding abated after a period of time. Alix was calmer, which made Alexei calmer. None of us know or will ever know. Just a good discussion.
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  #57  
Old 02-29-2008, 10:43 PM
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No problem, that episode was on prior to my last post... so you know I just had to put that line in there.
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  #58  
Old 02-29-2008, 10:54 PM
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While we may never know his intentions, his impact on the fall of the Imperial family isn't debatable, imho. Many of Nicholas's closest advisor/friends ended up estranged from him because of Rasputin. Besides inept, I also think Nicholas felt great panic not knowing how ridding the place of Rasputin would affect his son or his wife.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lexi4 View Post
I just skimmed through my copy of Massie's Nicholas & Alexandra and did not find where Massie called it a miracle. He does offer a medical explanation for what happened at Spala. He also discusses how obscure the crisis at Spala was. He said the telegram Rasputin sent actually offered good medical advice: "Do not allow the doctors to bother him too much."
In my copy of the book this is all on pages 186-189.
Thanks lexi. I know we want to be careful about copyright laws but when it comes to books of several hundreds of pages, sometimes its easier to explain to people by quoting a small page or couple of paragraphs from the book rather than spend many more words trying to explain what the book says.

And quoting a couple of paragraphs or a page is not going to get us in trouble with the copyright police.

The enigma of Rasputin was most interesting to Robert Massie. As you all probably know, Massie's own son suffered from hemophilia and Robert Massie first became acquainted with the story of Nicholas and Alexandra when he was researching other families who had dealt with hemophilia.

In Nicholas and Alexandra, he was particularly interested in Rasputin's methods mainly for his own son. He and his wife wrote another book about their own experiences of raising a hemophiliac son and it is simply heartwrenching. In that book he mentions how struck he was with the idea that Rasputin hypnotized Alexis to slow down the flow of blood. He discussed it in great detail with his children's dentist who also had three hemophiliac sons (for hemophiliacs, choosing the right dentist was important because pulling teeth could start a bleeding fit that would last for days - even in Massie's time). Both he and his dentist tried to hypnotize their sons to stop a bleeding episode and found that it had mixed results.
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  #60  
Old 02-29-2008, 11:02 PM
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Thank you Ysbel. Had I found a sentence with the word miracle in it, I would have quoted it. I just skimmed the pages about Spala, but didn't find the word.

Yes, I was aware of Massie's son. I have not read the book he and his wife wrote. Perhaps I should add that to my list.


Here is one sentence from Massie about Spala. I think it says a lot.
"The part played by Rasputin's telegram in Alexis' recovery at Spala remains one of the most mysterious episodes of the whole Rasputin legend. None of the doctors present ever discussed it in writing. Anna Vyrubova, the link between Rasputin and the Empress, writes of the telegram and the boy's recovery without comment or evaluation."

He goes on to say that Nicholas didn't even mention the telegram to his own mother when he wrote to tell her all was well with Alexi.
I wonder if Anna was/is the only source on the telegram?
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