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  #21  
Old 02-28-2008, 04:32 PM
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as far as i know Rasputin influenced on only Empress on first place. but when he saw that his son can survive with the help of Rasputin he started to believe that this man may be helpful and has a gift from God. may be Nikolai II thought that Rasputin is a provider of God's will and that's why he entrusted him. but mostly he trusted his wife who had the enormous power on tzar.
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  #22  
Old 02-28-2008, 06:35 PM
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These are two of the predicitions that Rasputin made:

"I feel that i have to die before New year day: I want advice to the rusian people, to the Fthae and Mother Rusia, and to the boys, that if i´m killed for the comunards killers, and specialy for my villager brothers, you, Tzar of Rusia, don´t have fear, keep in your throne, rule and don´t fear for your sons, because they will reighn for one hundred years or more. But if i´m killed for the nobilty, their hands keep touch for my blood, and for twenty five years they will not be able to quit this blood of their hands. They will must leave Rusia. The brothers will kill the brothers, they will kill among theirselves. And for twenty five years there will haven´t nobility in the country. Tzar of Rusia, if you hear the sound of the bells, that advice you that Grigorij has been murdered, you must know this: if your relatives were who has killed me, then neither of your family , this is neither of your sons or neither of your relatives will survible me for more than two years. They will be killed for the rusian people... !Pray, pray!! Be strong, think in your blessed family".

".. Like in the Holy Rome House, That will go from Peter to Peter, in this way the Holy Petersburg House will go from Michael to Michael, The first Michael builded the throne, and the last Michael will not have time to enjoy it, because all will happen fast, the life like the death"."...i had looked throw the window and i had seen blood´s drops that beaten against the glass, while in the land were made blood and mud puddles, in that splashed pigs, wolfs and others impure animals". "..one more time, i had rescue him, and i don´t know how many more i will rescue him still...but i will rescue him from his hangmen. Each time i hold the Tzar and The Mother, and the girls and the first-born son, my shoulder felt a scary chill. It´s like if in these holds i streched corpses.. And then, i pray for this people, because i felt that in this our Rusia, they are who have more need. And pray for all the romanov family, because it´s making the shadow of a long eclipse"

(Sorry for my bad english)

If he said things like that is understable that The Tzar and Alex had a greath faith in him...Because all about this had been done
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2008, 07:16 PM
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Well, it wasn't too hard to know that revolution was coming and brother would fight brother. That the Tsar and his family safety was, certainly, an issue. It has been 92 years since Rasputin's death and not 25 years and still nothing has changed for them. The murderers survived him for many years. I don't know, maybe he did have ESP. I just think he was a charlatan.
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  #24  
Old 02-28-2008, 07:34 PM
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Just goes to show even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
There has been some scholarship that has suggested that those predictions are not authentic. I can't remember all of the details now. Alexandra was delusional and her reliance upon Rasputin is an example of how mentally unbalanced she was. And Nicholas just didn't have the sense god gave a horse. And yes, he did allow Rasputin's influence in matters of government.
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Well, it wasn't too hard to know that revolution was coming and brother would fight brother. That the Tsar and his family safety was, certainly, an issue. It has been 92 years since Rasputin's death and not 25 years and still nothing has changed for them. The murderers survived him for many years. I don't know, maybe he did have ESP. I just think he was a charlatan.
Charlatan I think. I doubt he had ESP. It didn't take a whole lot of brains to figure out a revolution was coming. Do you remember recent publications calling the into question the authenticity of parts of those predictions? For the life of me I can't remember where I read that.
P.S. Is there a spell checker on here? If so, where?
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  #26  
Old 02-28-2008, 09:14 PM
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Your spelling looks fine and you are right on all accounts.
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  #27  
Old 02-28-2008, 09:47 PM
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While I would much rather believe the prophecies are real, I have seen some say that they were written after his death by his secretary and his supporters. I don't know for sure. But they do say that he was 'functionally illiterate' and that either his secretary or Anna V. wrote much of his longer correspondence. So maybe he dictated the prophecies, who knows.
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  #28  
Old 02-28-2008, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
While I would much rather believe the prophecies are real, I have seen some say that they were written after his death by his secretary and his supporters. I don't know for sure. But they do say that he was 'functionally illiterate' and that either his secretary or Anna V. wrote much of his longer correspondence. So maybe he dictated the prophecies, who knows.
I remember something along those lines Anna, but can't remember where I read it. Do you have any sources? It's driving me batty.
Thank you,
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  #29  
Old 02-28-2008, 10:23 PM
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They didn't believe that they had to do good to be in their position. They believed they were ordained by God to their position, so all that they did was good, true or not. Rasputin was, supposedly, illiterate. They, most certainly, could have been written after his death.
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  #30  
Old 02-29-2008, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
They didn't believe that they had to do good to be in their position. They believed they were ordained by God to their position, so all that they did was good, true or not. Rasputin was, supposedly, illiterate. They, most certainly, could have been written after his death.

I think that belief, that all they did was good, led to their downfall. I also think that belief contribute to the sway Rasputin had over Alex. She believed him to be a man of God.
As to his literacy, here is what Orlando Figes wrote: ..."When the post of the Tsar's confessor fell vacant in 1910, Alexandra insisted on Rasputin being trained for ordination so that he could take up the job. But it soon became clear that he was unable to read anything but the most basic parts of the Scriptures. The capacity for learning by heart, which was essential for the priesthood, proved quite beyond him. (Rasputin's memory was in fact so poor that often he even forgot the names of his friends; so he gave them nicknames..."
His daughter, Maria, wrote a book about him. I haven't read it, but have read that she paints a pretty rosy picture of her father. She writes that he was a holy man and misunderstood. I'd love to read the book. But it isn't cheap.
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  #31  
Old 02-29-2008, 05:17 AM
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I have understood that most of members have negative position on Rasputin. but why? he was a person of his epoch with specific features and destiny. I believe that he did't want to do hurm to russia and russian royalty. For Tsar and Tsaritsa he represented the whole people of the country, actually he was one of that category. Rasputin was a peasant who never lost summer to crop grains to feed the family. but more important he tried to help Nikolay and Alexandra Fedorovna to save life for their child and inheritant.
Yes, Rasputin thied to interfere in politics, but according to almoust all saficient russian sources, his opinion was the same as Nikolay had.

about the book of Matryona (Maria in english manner) Rasputina - I found the part of it in russian. when will finish it, mat write little summary if somebody is interested.
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  #32  
Old 02-29-2008, 11:00 AM
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I don't know that I would say it is a negative opinion, I would say it is an objective opinion based on research. He was a drunk, a womanizer, egotist and he manipulated the IF. He was rude and took pleasure in being rude. He participated in drunken orgies and spent days in the bathhouse with prostitutes. Those actions can hardly be considered "holy."

Among his so-called prophecies is the one that he predicted Alexei would not die and that he would be cured of the disease by the time he was 13.
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  #33  
Old 02-29-2008, 11:30 AM
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Real Rasputin

Real Rasputin:
1. Without doubts, Rasputin possessed the gift of the healing (even on distance, without contact to a person). Without doubts, he some times rescued Alexi from illness and Alexandra had absolutely all the bases to not leave him.

2. Even before acquaintance to Imperial family he has received a revelation from above (Revelation of Heavens), that he should go to St.-Petersburg to Imperial family. Certainly, elements of personal vanity accompanied with his mission, but he sincerely considered the service to Imperial family as the Mission from God.

3. All period of his mission in Imperial family can be divided into two periods: prior to the beginning WWI (1914) and after beginning WWI. Prior to the beginning WWI he at all did not drink wine and was modest and silent in St.-Petersburg. It is known, that in July, 1914 he has sent to Nicholas II about 20 (!) telegrams with desperate requests to not admit the beginning of war. He expected awful consequences of war for Russia and Imperial family. Not he one: minister Durnovo warned of it too.
After the beginning of war he has started to drink wine and he has started to get in scandals. He considered the future collapse is inevitable... and he could not operate the emotions as it is peculiar to many Russian people.

4. It seems Radzinsky wrote, that «it would be strange, if Rasputin has not left the prophetical letter» - Radzinsky was right. The letter was. Perhaps, Simanovitch (his former secretary) has reproduced it on memory and not quite in Rasputin's style, but the letter was. Rasputin saw visions as well as was clairvoyant and healer.
In the autumn of 1916 Rasputin already knew, that he will be killed.
Moreover, he knew, that he will be killed on December, 16th in palace of Yusupov. There are some very strong indirect demonstrations (evidences) of it.

5. As to hearsays about the influence of Rasputin on Alexandra\Nicholas decisions, - these hearsays were hundredfold exaggerated by opposition. It was the intentioned slander of opposition.
Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev (see his memories «Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote about that time (1916), that he specially was engaged in investigation of Rasputin's influence and has found, that only two (from approximately ten-twelve) Rasputin's "notes" with requests for the important purposes(assignments) have been satisfied. His conclusion was those: Rasputin's requests were satisfied only when they corresponded to opinion of Alexandra and Nicholas.
Of course, Rasputin after 1914 gave irreconcilable opposition many occasions for attacks on Alexandra\Nicholas (and - the MAIN thing - many occasions for distribution of hearsays and slander), however, Rasputin himself had not a negative influence on the Imperial family. More correctly to tell, that his influence was positively in all aspects.
Many oppositionists with surprise have recognized, that it has been changed nothing after murder of Rasputin. Others have told, that all things became even worse.
Whether anyone can give one-two concrete example of negative influence of Rasputin on Imperial family? As far as I remember, the Commission of Provisional government could not find any important compromising evidences (proofs) neither on Rasputin, nor on empress Alexandra.
By the way, I shall remind, that main "cool girl" and "girl-friend" (and ostensibly "companion in crime") of Rasputin, Anna Vyrubova in reply to charge has demanded medical examination and she appeared the virgin. I think, the same effect is the answer to other charges to address of Rasputin.

6. Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev («Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote:
«Harbingers of revolution aspired to make from Rasputin a frightful-image to carry out own devilish plans. Therefore they distributed the most bad hearsays which made an impression, that only at intermediary of this Siberian muzhik it is possible to achieve a high position and influence …
A mind (a natural wisdom) and natural sharpness enabled him sometimes soberly and acutely to judge the person even on one meeting or a sight. It was known to tsarina, therefore she sometimes asked his opinion on this or that candidate on a high post in the government. But from such questions up to ostensibly an ordering of ministers by Rasputin - very big step and neither tsar, nor tsarina never did this step, undoubtedly.
Nevertheless many people believed, that all depends on a scrap of a paper with the several words written by Rasputin's hand … Sometimes I investigated these hearsays, but never found convincing proofs of their truthfulness.
Someone can think, that all this is my sentimental inventions. No, I base on reports of agents which worked as years as servants in house of Rasputin - they knew his daily life up to the smallest details».


Boris
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  #34  
Old 02-29-2008, 03:36 PM
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In my opinion, Rasputin had a character and personality with a very strong efect over people, and for this, one hundred years ago we are still interested for him. He was a mix of holy man, rude, womanizer, drunker, and i think that he had been acepted for the imperial family, in the Russia Court, with it´s straight and rigid rules is what make his person more atracted.

I would like to know how he could cure to Alexey, and how many times he had to atend him.

I don´t know why but i had always very interested in this part of the history. I know that Russia was not a Haeven in the earth in this time, like may be neither country, and that Russia still keep a social organization very obsoleted that was overdosed for a quick progress in the economy the the last years of the XIX century, that make more clear the social trouble and the diference between urban and country prople.
In my opinion this was the trouble. May be Nicholas could make samething better that he did, or Rasputin could had influence in gubernamental decisions, or Alix, but i think that the real trouble afected to the totally of the country because it´s needed a social basis that support the changes in the mind of the people and allows the changes.

What i try to say is that i think that it´s not possible to blame only one person for all what happened.

I love all what i read about the family relations between the imperial family, specially because in their relations they appear like very human, and i love their family book pictures.

There ones that i think are very special that were same pics that were taken in their captivity time and when Alexay and his sisters had shaved their hair because a old siberian tradition said that this was a good remedy to cure the mumps ill.
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  #35  
Old 02-29-2008, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BorisRom View Post
Real Rasputin:
1. Without doubts, Rasputin possessed the gift of the healing (even on distance, without contact to a person). Without doubts, he some times rescued Alexi from illness and Alexandra had absolutely all the bases to not leave him.

Boris, there is no way to prove this scientifically or conclusively. What we are left with are Nicholas & Alexandra's perceptions of his abilities. It is hard to know, from their writings, what he acutally did and wether or not it would have happened anyway. Rasputin himself said that there were times he used drugs in healing. Whether or not he did in this case, we can't know.

2. Even before acquaintance to Imperial family he has received a revelation from above (Revelation of Heavens), that he should go to St.-Petersburg to Imperial family. Certainly, elements of personal vanity accompanied with his mission, but he sincerely considered the service to Imperial family as the Mission from God.

Again, not something that can be proven. This is a matter of belief and faith. That is what is required. You either believe he had a revelation or you do not. But cannot be proven either way. Not by science. For all we know he could have been hallucinating. Too me, it is a bunch of manipulative poppycock designed to catch the attention of a very vulnerable tsar and tsarina.

3. All period of his mission in Imperial family can be divided into two periods: prior to the beginning WWI (1914) and after beginning WWI. Prior to the beginning WWI he at all did not drink wine and was modest and silent in St.-Petersburg. It is known, that in July, 1914 he has sent to Nicholas II about 20 (!) telegrams with desperate requests to not admit the beginning of war. He expected awful consequences of war for Russia and Imperial family. Not he one: minister Durnovo warned of it too.

It would be interesting to see some of those telgrams. Do you have a souce? And it wouldn't take a genuis to figure out that entering the war was a bad deal for Russia. It sometimes seems like the only person who couldn't see that was the tsar. Again, there were many who knew Russia could not support the war, but Nicholas refused to listen.


After the beginning of war he has started to drink wine and he has started to get in scandals. He considered the future collapse is inevitable... and he could not operate the emotions as it is peculiar to many Russian people.
Agreed

4. It seems Radzinsky wrote, that «it would be strange, if Rasputin has not left the prophetical letter» - Radzinsky was right. The letter was. Perhaps, Simanovitch (his former secretary) has reproduced it on memory and not quite in Rasputin's style, but the letter was. Rasputin saw visions as well as was clairvoyant and healer.
In the autumn of 1916 Rasputin already knew, that he will be killed.

Radzinsky is a wonderful writer, but his opinions are just that...his opinions. He was merely writing his personal opinion when he worte this.

Moreover, he knew, that he will be killed on December, 16th in palace of Yusupov. There are some very strong indirect demonstrations (evidences) of it.

5. As to hearsays about the influence of Rasputin on Alexandra\Nicholas decisions, - these hearsays were hundredfold exaggerated by opposition. It was the intentioned slander of opposition.
Maybe. But where is the proof beyond his daughter's writings? All of those historians could not have been this wrong all of those years.

Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev (see his memories «Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote about that time (1916), that he specially was engaged in investigation of Rasputin's influence and has found, that only two (from approximately ten-twelve) Rasputin's "notes" with requests for the important purposes(assignments) have been satisfied. His conclusion was those: Rasputin's requests were satisfied only when they corresponded to opinion of Alexandra and Nicholas.

I am unaware of this and will check it out. We also have to consider the letters of Nicholas and Alexandra to each other. There are letters in which Alex tell Nicky "their friends" advice and encourages him to heed it. The fact of the matter remains, he should not have had any influence at all.

Of course, Rasputin after 1914 gave irreconcilable opposition many occasions for attacks on Alexandra\Nicholas (and - the MAIN thing - many occasions for distribution of hearsays and slander), however, Rasputin himself had not a negative influence on the Imperial family. More correctly to tell, that his influence was positively in all aspects.

I could not disagree more.

Many oppositionists with surprise have recognized, that it has been changed nothing after murder of Rasputin. Others have told, that all things became even worse.
Whether anyone can give one-two concrete example of negative influence of Rasputin on Imperial family? As far as I remember, the Commission of Provisional government could not find any important compromising evidences (proofs) neither on Rasputin, nor on empress Alexandra.

Sources on the Commission's findings?

By the way, I shall remind, that main "cool girl" and "girl-friend" (and ostensibly "companion in crime") of Rasputin, Anna Vyrubova in reply to charge has demanded medical examination and she appeared the virgin. I think, the same effect is the answer to other charges to address of Rasputin.

6. Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev («Okhrana - Russian secret police») wrote:
«Harbingers of revolution aspired to make from Rasputin a frightful-image to carry out own devilish plans. Therefore they distributed the most bad hearsays which made an impression, that only at intermediary of this Siberian muzhik it is possible to achieve a high position and influence …
A mind (a natural wisdom) and natural sharpness enabled him sometimes soberly and acutely to judge the person even on one meeting or a sight. It was known to tsarina, therefore she sometimes asked his opinion on this or that candidate on a high post in the government. But from such questions up to ostensibly an ordering of ministers by Rasputin - very big step and neither tsar, nor tsarina never did this step, undoubtedly.

As I have said before, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And what you are describing is intuition which many people possess. It was not unique to Rasputin or some special divine gift. And the example you site about court appointments shows exactly how much influence he had.

Nevertheless many people believed, that all depends on a scrap of a paper with the several words written by Rasputin's hand … Sometimes I investigated these hearsays, but never found convincing proofs of their truthfulness.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

Someone can think, that all this is my sentimental inventions. No, I base on reports of agents which worked as years as servants in house of Rasputin - they knew his daily life up to the smallest details».

And who are those agents? Where can one find their writings?



Boris

I enjoy discussing Russian history with you Boris and look forward to your response
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  #36  
Old 02-29-2008, 03:54 PM
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I agree that it is not possible to blame only one person for all that happened, but on this thread I think we are looking at Rasputin's role which is fair for discussion.

Alexei and his sisters had their head shaved because of measles.
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  #37  
Old 02-29-2008, 04:32 PM
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Lexi wrote:
"Boris, there is no way to prove this scientifically or conclusively. What we are left with are Nicholas & Alexandra's perceptions of his abilities. It is hard to know, from their writings, what he acutally did and wether or not it would have happened anyway. Rasputin himself said that there were times he used drugs in healing. Whether or not he did in this case, we can't know"

Lexi, please, re-read (for example) chapters XIV and XV of R.Massie’s book (“Nicholas and Alexandra”). Each author, who wrote about a wonderful Alexi's recover in Spale (autumn of 1912) named it miracle of Rasputin. And it was not the unique case when Rasputin has rescued Alexi.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:27 PM
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Whether anyone can give one-two concrete example of negative influence of Rasputin on Imperial family? As far as I remember, the Commission of Provisional government could not find any important compromising evidences (proofs) neither on Rasputin, nor on empress Alexandra.
Lexi wrote: “Sources on the Commission's findings?”
Lexi, please, re-read paragraph 4 of chapter VII of book of Nikolay Sokolov («Murder of Imperial family»): «Investigation of Extreme court of inquiry [the Comission of Provisional goverment - B.R.] about Nicholas and Alexandra». The conclusion of Sokolov (and of the court of inquiry): Nikolay and Alexandra are not guilty absolutely.
It is especially surprising, that N.Sokolov in the following paragraph of this chapter «pins all accusations on Rasputin», referring just only opinions and hearsays.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:45 PM
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Lexi,
As to your doubts concerning objectivity of the book of the Director of Department of police A.T.Vasiliev (« Okhrana - Russian secret police ») - I can help nothing to you in it, except for advice to read this book to you yourself. Unfortunately, I don't know, whether this book in English or the French language has been published.
Warmly
Boris
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:54 PM
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Lex, check the library. That's where I got a lot of the books I read to get on this obsession. The library is really good for letting you put a hold on a book and have it transferred from one location to another.
I read the book about Maria but not by Maria and yes, she did paint a rosy picture, saying that when her father was home everything was grand. But I would find something wrong with that, a father being gone, making a pilgrimage all over the place and not with their family. To me, that's not being God-like, God, IMO, made families to stick to gether.
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