Grand Duke Serge (1857-1905) & Elisaveta Feodorovna, Grand Duchess Serge (1864-1918)

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I guess we'll never really know enough about Sergei.

 

[Russophile]

I guess we'll never really know enough about Sergei.

Unless there's a hidden diary or something out there. . .which is highly unlikely. . .

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Unless there's a hidden diary or something out there. . .which is highly unlikely. . .

It might be possible. Olga and Tatiana had lost diaries and a lot of their volumes have been found and published in Sisters of Mercy (a Russian book). If Grand Duchess Ella's diary was found I'm sure we would learn a lot more about Sergei. She might have burnt her diary. I know that OTMA burnt some of their diaries but some survived and now are published...

 

[Warren]

As for Sergei and Ella's marriage, it's a bit of mystery.

For what it's worth, here's a small part of the lengthy Wiki entry on Grand Duke Serge...

A great deal of controversy around Sergei Alexandrovich has centered on the nature of his personal life. Guesses about the perhaps unhappy nature of the relationship with his wife have abounded. Sergei's marriage is barely documented. His private papers, including his correspondence with his wife, have not survived, and the evidence that does exist in the Moscow State archives, the most important repository of Romanov papers, is open to interpretation. According to some contemporary reports, Sergei was homosexual. His sexuality conflicted with his intense religious beliefs and the expectations of his position. Contrary to this belief, the marriage was happy, in its own way. Unusual for royal couples, they slept in the same bed for all of their married life. Forced to defend Sergei against rumors of discord, Elisaveta Feodorovna was devoted to her husband and treasured his memory after his death.

 

[Russophile]

For what it's worth, here's a small part of the lengthy Wiki entry on Grand Duke Serge...

A great deal of controversy around Sergei Alexandrovich has centered on the nature of his personal life. Guesses about the perhaps unhappy nature of the relationship with his wife have abounded. Sergei's marriage is barely documented. His private papers, including his correspondence with his wife, have not survived, and the evidence that does exist in the Moscow State archives, the most important repository of Romanov papers, is open to interpretation. According to some contemporary reports, Sergei was homosexual. His sexuality conflicted with his intense religious beliefs and the expectations of his position. Contrary to this belief, the marriage was happy, in its own way. Unusual for royal couples, they slept in the same bed for all of their married life. Forced to defend Sergei against rumors of discord, Elisaveta Feodorovna was devoted to her husband and treasured his memory after his death.

Indeed! Warwick's book confirms this. And you don't have to have children to have a happy marriage. I really believe that they truely loved each other in their way and had a very happy marriage. Unconventional, but very happy for them.

 

[Grace Angel]

I agree Russo. As for Sergei, it seems he destroyed all of the diaries of his later years. Some from earlier years survive, but like typical Royal diaries of the time aren't very informative. They have been published in Russian.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Some volumes of Sergei's diaries have been pubished. But, it's all in Russian. I think Sergei only wrote about what happened daily in his life. I don't think he wrote about personal feelings and thoughts into the diaries. I don't know. Maybe if this was translated in English we could know even more information about Sergei's young life.
OZON.ru - Êíèãè | Âåëèêèé Êíÿçü Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷ Ðîìàíîâ. Êíèãà 1. 1857-1877 | Êóïèòü êíèãè: èíòåðíåò-ìàãàçèí / ISBN 5-87389-036-6, 5-87389-035-8
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/3827530/

 

[Russophile]

Some volumes of Sergei's diaries have been pubished. But, it's all in Russian. I think Sergei only wrote about what happened daily in his life. I don't think he wrote about personal feelings and thoughts into the diaries. I don't know. Maybe if this was translated in English we could know even more information about Sergei's young life.
OZON.ru - Êíèãè | Âåëèêèé Êíÿçü Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷ Ðîìàíîâ. Êíèãà 1. 1857-1877 | Êóïèòü êíèãè: èíòåðíåò-ìàãàçèí / ISBN 5-87389-036-6, 5-87389-035-8
OZON.ru - Êíèãè | Âåëèêèé Êíÿçü Ñåðãåé Àëåêñàíäðîâè÷ Ðîìàíîâ. Áèîãðàôè÷åñêèå ìàòåðèàëû. Êíèãà 2. 1877-1880 | Êóïèòü êíèãè: èíòåðíåò-ìàãàçèí / ISBN 978-5-87389-041-5, 5-87389-035-8

And that's what Nicky did as well. Seems to be a bit of a habit for the family, except KR.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Empress Alexandra's 1918 diary was also like that too. All she wrote about was what she did during her daily life. Her diary does give good details about how the Imperial family lived their lives during their last months.Same thing with Olga Nicholaievna- her diary was also like that too. She would only write about the activities, places, and people she saw during the day.She would also usually talk about Alix's heart trouble and pains.

I think that Sergei's diaries were written like that too.

 

[Grace Angel]

If Ella's diaries had survived, it would likely be the same story, in my opinion. KR's diary was very rare among royals at that time. Yes, at least in Sergei's surviving diaries, there isn't much personal thought or feeling, although since I don't read Russian, I have only read what other people have said about them.

 

[Velkoknezna Maria]

Alice of Hesse with baby Ella
Ella 1896
Ella with Sergey and Grand Duke Pavel

 

[Warren]

Posts discussing a book about Grand Duke Serge have been moved to the Romanov thread in the Royal Library.

 

[dharshana]

Grand Duke Serge (1857-1905) & Elisaveta Feodorovna, Grand Duchess Serge (1864-1918)

I have a thought if the Revolutionaries hadnt killed Sergei would he have had enough power to influence Tsar Nicholas on the state of the country and prevent WWI?

 

[EmpressRouge]

I have a thought if the Revolutionaries hadnt killed Sergei would he have had enough power to influence Tsar Nicholas on the state of the country and prevent WWI?

Interesting thought but Serge was very conservative, one of the reasons he was targeted for assassination. If he had continued influence over Nicholas, it probably wouldn't have helped Russia move in a new direction.

 

[Royal Fan]

it may have made it worse

 

[Russophile]

I have a thought if the Revolutionaries hadnt killed Sergei would he have had enough power to influence Tsar Nicholas on the state of the country and prevent WWI?

No. Too many factors and Russia had to support their alliegiances.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I am currently reading Lost Splendor by Felix Yussupov and finished Chapter X. This chapter describes his growing friendship with Grand Duke Dmitri and his acquaintance with Grand Duke Serge and Grand Duchess Elizabeth, whom Felix adored. Felix did not like Serge and writes that Serge often stared at him. Could this be evidence of Serge's suspected homosexuality? It appears Felix was at least bi-sexual and maybe Serge suspected this. I was amused when Felix described that Serge wore corsets and the bones of the garment could be seen through light weight summer clothing.

 

[Russophile]

Perhaps Serge was not happy with the influence Felix had on Dmitry. Unlike KR, Serge was very proper. One still does not know whether he was gay or not. Russo would like to know as she is a curious cat. Though she suspects that will get her into trouble. . . .

 

[Cory]

I visited the tomb of Grand Duchess Elisabeth when the tomb was in Jerusalem.A real holy woman indeed...

 

[Grandduchess24]

Was their marriage unhappy? I just wonder Ella's reaction finding out dimitri murdered rasputin good/bad and supposedly Ella and alix didn't get song because they had different views on Rasputin . I just wonder what would have happened if they had a child I am guessing they wouldnt have hemo for Ella wasn't a carrier unlike alix and Irene , strangely her and Victoria weren't carriers

 

[Russophile]

Was their marriage unhappy? I just wonder Ella's reaction finding out dimitri murdered rasputin good/bad and supposedly Ella and alix didn't get song because they had different views on Rasputin . I just wonder what would have happened if they had a child I am guessing they wouldnt have hemo for Ella wasn't a carrier unlike alix and Irene , strangely her and Victoria weren't carriers

It's hard to say whether they were or not. An excellent book on Ella is Warwick's "Ella: Princess, Saint and Martyr". (Should be at your local library) He writes about how Sergei wanted Ella to look a certain way, fashionable and beautiful. that she did things his way, she makes no mention of being unhappy, from what was written. IMO, things were strained between then however Ella never made a fuss about it, but then again, Ella didn't find her husband buggering the male staff in her bed like Ducky did. There is a portion of the book I found fascinating, it seems Ella had a bit of a crush on a distant relation: Greek Nicky. Also, Paul, Sergei and Ella all lived together after Paul's wife died and that caused tongues to wag as well.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I just wonder what would have happened if they had a child I am guessing they wouldnt have hemo for Ella wasn't a carrier unlike alix and Irene , strangely her and Victoria weren't carriers

My dear Grandduchess,

But how do you know Ella was not a carrier of the hemophilia gene? She and Sergei did not have any children. We know that Victoria, the eldest of the four sisters, did not pass any gene on to her children, but Ella may have been a carrier.

It's hard to say whether they were or not. An excellent book on Ella is Warwick's "Ella: Princess, Saint and Martyr". (Should be at your local library) He writes about how Sergei wanted Ella to look a certain way, fashionable and beautiful. that she did things his way, she makes no mention of being unhappy, from what was written. IMO, things were strained between then however Ella never made a fuss about it, but then again, Ella didn't find her husband buggering the male staff in her bed like Ducky did. There is a portion of the book I found fascinating, it seems Ella had a bit of a crush on a distant relation: Greek Nicky. Also, Paul, Sergei and Ella all lived together after Paul's wife died and that caused tongues to wag as well.

Russo my dear,

Fascinating information. I never knew that Ella had a crush on a member of the Greek royal family. I had always thought, from reading between the lines and from what certain authors implied, that Sergei and Ella had a mostly sexless marriage because many thought he was gay. Ironic huh, if true, in light of what happened between Ducky and Ella's brother. But then he remarried and fathered two children, so who knows?

Your favorite, Marie of Romania, wrote that she thought her Uncle Sergei was so handsome and slim and well-dressed. So maybe his was a marriage of convenience and he was closeted and remained that way. And maybe ibecause of Ella's later conversion to be a nun that a physical relationship was not that important to Ella anyway. We really must get that book about the Hesse sisters, The Four Graces.

 

[AristoCat]

One thing I do know is that Serge was the most disliked Romanov in the nation and the most disliked family member, something he apparently reveled in. He loved being a target of hatred of the revolutionaries as well, while he hated them as much right back. Even Alexandra was exasperated by Serge's control of Ella as well. As for Rasputin, it was the one thing that broke their relationship apart in the end and they never saw each other alive.

 

[Russophile]

. But then he remarried and fathered two children, so who knows?

Greg King and penny Wilson will soon know. Their next work is on Uncle Ernie. That I am salivating for! (Especially since his relationship with little Princess Elizabeth--the first daughter who died-- was so close)

Your favorite, Marie of Romania, wrote that she thought her Uncle Sergei was so handsome and slim and well-dressed. So maybe his was a marriage of convenience and he was closeted and remained that way. And maybe ibecause of Ella's later conversion to be a nun that a physical relationship was not that important to Ella anyway. We really must get that book about the Hesse sisters, The Four Graces.

See I don't know. Sergei could have been a closet and he could have been just asexual. Didn't Ella burn his diary? I can't remember.
Oh yes! I'll have to go look for that book!!

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I have never been able to find a book on Ella. There is one on Amazon that I really want to read, but I don't know if I want to buy it yet.
I also don't like reading about Ella because she was such a lovely nice person who died such a horrible way; and it makes me get immature and scream "it's not fair"!
My local library sux, best book on the last years of Imperial Russia is Nicholas and Alexandra.

 

[Russophile]

I have never been able to find a book on Ella. There is one on Amazon that I really want to read, but I don't know if I want to buy it yet.
I also don't like reading about Ella because she was such a lovely nice person who died such a horrible way; and it makes me get immature and scream "it's not fair"!
My local library sux, best book on the last years of Imperial Russia is Nicholas and Alexandra.

It's kinda like the Manson murders, Honey, you just can't help but look.
Here's a link to Amazon and the Warwick book.
Amazon.com: Ella: Princess, Saint and Martyr (9780470870631): Christopher Warwick: Books
The thing I find most interesting about it is that Marie the Younger painted Ella in such a bad light especially when it came to her marriage though Warwick had access to archives of letters Marie and Willy wrote to each other. She called him Darling willy. And Ella paid for Marie's palace in Sweden as well. Not a bad deal for being such a witch of a guardian, I'd say!

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I found the Warwick book at my old Univ. YAY! Should probably skip the end though. I was looking at a bunch of books today so I don't remember the title of this book, but it had pictures of Elizabeth's body and another person she died with.

 

[Russophile]

I found the Warwick book at my old Univ. YAY! Should probably skip the end though. I was looking at a bunch of books today so I don't remember the title of this book, but it had pictures of Elizabeth's body and another person she died with.

That would be Sister Barbara (I believe the Russians pronounce and spell it Varvara.) she was devoted to Ella.

 

[Brazilian_Empress]

You are all correct. What I would like to know, is what did she see in Sergei. Some say he was a homosexual, that I don't know. But he was not noted as being a nice person. Grand Duchess Xenia's husband Sandro, Alexander Mikhilavich, said he could think of no redeeming feature of Sergei. He was disliked by many of his family, least of all the public. Ella was charming, gay, beautiful and, I think, could have made a better marriage. I am just asking opinion, as none of us know what she really thought.

We really don't know if she could be happiest with the kaiser. Considering his behavior and personality, is hard to believe, but who knows?

KR have 9 children and is (now) a very known homosexual. I think Ella had some fertility problems.

 

[Brazilian_Empress]

[Queen Victoria's] dislike for the Romanovs didn't prevent 3 of her grand daughters from marrying a Russian.

Three? I just remember Ella and Alix. Who was the third?
.