Grand Duke Georgi, son and heir of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna (2008-Oct. 2021)

[jonnydep]

but to all sense of purposes many of the marriages within the house of windsor are unequal and therefore morganatic in the broadest sense of the word.

in my vast book collection, i have an book that states this and for the life of me, can i find the book to able to quote exact wording etc.

it is possiable that the grand duchess maria may not approve the york princesses for this very reason. in her eyes she may view them as half royal and disregard the fact we brits do not regard the duke of yorks marriage as morganatic, but the grand duchess might well do !!

for example did not the tsar alexander III had banished a cousin of his, as a result of him marrying a person whose mother was not of royal blood.....tough her father was of royal blood...... !

i hope that you can see what i am trying to say here..... as at times i am not very good at expressing myself, i do know what i want to say.....but sometimes it does not across correctly !!

well all for now.......

 

[vsriCo]

Prince George belongs to the House of Hohenzollern, whatever his mother/grandfather might have decreed.

according to this logic then Prince Charles doesn't belong to the house of Windsor, do you agree?

 

[amedea]

it is possiable that the grand duchess maria may not approve the york princesses for this very reason. in her eyes she may view them as half royal and disregard the fact we brits do not regard the duke of yorks marriage as morganatic, but the grand duchess might well do !!

Please look at the Bagration (GDss Leonida's family) genealogy: you will see plenty of non-royals there. Or think that Imperial Russia accepted as equal, for example, the Montenegro princesses whose mother was not royal. If a princess is considered a dinastic member of her own house by the rules of her own house, she is also for the other houses.
Some intresting matches IMO are:
-the Anhalt princesses, I have heard very few about them, but it seems to me that this family is still intrested in royalty, titles, claims; they are also in some way controversial (their father not being the biological son of his father) and so maybe a bit excluded from posh royal circles, so that they could accept allowance with GDss Maria; finally it would make great sensation a similar match since Catherine the Great was also an Anhalt
-Olga of Mecklenburg: also if Prussia may not recognize her as royal, it was GDss Maria's grandfather who recognised Olga's great-grand father as good pretender to Mecklenburg; her ancestors includes some Romanovs and have lived at Russian court; I don't know if the family is nowadays well connected in the european royal circles.

 

[Tilia C.]

I’d tell him but it might spoil the surprise.

Although something tells me that Maria Vladimirovna and Princess Leonida have been putting together similar lists from the moment the poor boy was born.

And something tells me that Maria Vladimirovna's list has become very, very short, as she has to cross out all the girls/families who have already said "thanks, but no thanks". It's not just that a marriage with Prince George is not a "step up", but also arranged marriages are off the agenda.
Can you imagine Prince Andrew trying to talk his daughter into such a match (which I doubt he would)? I envision the girls throwing a gigantic tantrum, Fergie siding with them, naturally, and the Queen having nightmares as all the Diana-mismatch-memories come up once again...

 

[amedea]

Weddings are no more arranged in this way: you have to create occasions in which Georg can meet royal girls of his age and court the ones he likes until one of them accept him as finacé.

 

[Tilia C.]

I admit that you are right, but I couldn't resist to imagine this scene.
Most likely the method you mention has been tried by all the current monarchs, but only Philipe of Belgium fell in love with an aristocratic girl. Chance that it works out are slim, but one should never give up hope.

 

[Al_bina]

In my personal opinion ...

according to this logic then Prince Charles doesn't belong to the house of Windsor, do you agree?

Firstly, a key difference is a cultural attitude. I dare to say that Russians have got an Asian attitude in this respect. They place more importance on a father's side of the family.
Secondly, Russians do take great pride in Russian nationalism. As pointed out by Marsel, Grand Duke George is not even half-Russian. According to Pikul, revolutionaries in 1917 mentioned the fact that Romanovs were not exactly Russians on a fairly regular basis.
Technically speaking, Prince Charles does not belong to the House of Windsor.

 

[Dierna23]

I can not tell about other Princess mentioned in the list. However, it may safely be assumed that both Princess von Thurn und Taxis will not convert. Recently Princess Elisabeth published a book describing her experience as a Roman Catholic.

Agree, both can be excluded. Very interesting topic btw.

 

[Marsel]

according to this logic then Prince Charles doesn't belong to the house of Windsor, do you agree?

Al_bina gave a wonderful answer in her post.


A Royal Proclamation issued by a Reigning Monarch and approved by the Prime Minister insured that the name of the House of Windsor will not be changed to House of Mountbatten (or, as it may be, Oldenburg). Moreover, all male-line descendants of the Queen and Prince Philip, who do not bear the title of Prince or Princess, or the style of Royal Highness, have Mountbatten-Windsor as their surname (in practice all 4 of their children have used Mountbatten-Windsor in their private lives).

Grand Duke Vladimir was not a Reigning Monarch (even his claims to the Headship of the House were disputed), he certainly did not seek or get any sort of approval from Parliament (which didn’t exist at the time anyway), the child had already been registered in Germany as “Prince George of Prussia” but his maternal grandfather used cheap trickery to re-register him in France (without even the courtesy of notifying poor Prince Franz Wilhelm first) as Grand Duke George of Russia. If George’s name had been changed to Prince Mickey Mouse of Disney, that wouldn’t make him Prince of Disneyland, would it?

 

[Marsel]

So after pruning and additions, here is the new, and much shorter list of (most probably) eligible candidates. Note that the Catholic Princesses are still included, apart from Thurn und Taxis ones.
Thanks to everyone for the lively debate!

• Princess Maria Laura of Belgium, Archduchess of Austria-Este (born 1988)
• Princess Beatrice (born 1988)
• Princess Eugenie (born 1990)
• Princess Nathalie of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg (born 1975)
• Princess Carolina, Marchioness of Sala (born 1974)
• Princess Maria-Annunciata of Liechtenstein (born 1985)
• Princess Marie-Astrid of Liechtenstein (born 1987)
• Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg (born 1991)
• Princess Marie Gabriele of Nassau (born 1986)
• Archduchess Gabriella Maria of Austria (born 1994)
• Princess Johanna of Waldeck.
• Duchess Anastasia and Duchess Alice of Oldenburg;
• Princess Theodora of Greece (born 1983)
• Princess Amélia of Orléans-Bragança (born 1984)
• Princess Maria Gabriela of Orléans-Bragança (born 1989)
• Elizabeth de Roumanie Medforth-Mills (born 1989) – only after she’s been made Princess of Romania, like her brother
• Princess Marie of Yugoslavia (born 1993)
• Duchess Helene Olga of Mecklenburg (born 1988)
• Princess Bernadette of Bavaria (born 1986)
• Princess Maria del Pilar of Bavaria (born 1978)
• Princess Maria Felipa of Bavaria (born 1981)
• Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix of Oldenburg (born 1970)
• Princess Elena Sofia of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (born 1973)
• Princess Olga Margarita of Leiningen (born 1984)
• Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (born 1988)
• Princess Theresa Anna of Leiningen (born 1992)
• Princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia (born 1982)
• Princess Nataly of Prussia (born 1970)
• Princess Irina Maria Nina Kira of Prussia (born 1988)
• Princess Philippa of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (born 1988)
• Princess Flaminia Pia of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (born 1992)
• Archduchess Eleonore Jelena of Austria (born 1994)
• Princess Inès Bagration-Mukhrani (born 1980)
• Princess Sophie of Baden (born 1975)
• Princess Aglae of Baden (born 1981)
• Princess Julia katharina of Anhalt (born 1980)
• Princess Eilika of Anhalt (born 1985)
• Princess Felizitas of Anhalt (born 1993)
• Princess Sophie of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (born 1980)
• Princess Leonie of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach (born 1986)
• Duchess Anastasi of Oldenburg (born 1982)
• Duchess Alice of Oldenburg (born 1986)
• Duchess Cara of Oldenburg (born 1993)

 

[amedea]

mmm Marie Gabrielle de Nassau is to exclude isn't she?
surely to exclude is Elena Sofia of Bourbon 2 Sicilies because she is a catholic nun!
So we have put toghether about 40-45 names and almost 20 are catholic.
I am surprised: the very numerous Reuss family hasn't any eligible princess?
BTW someone have already asked if we could include mediatized families..they have actually been sovereign in a certain age...I am intrested in that: in such way we could look in some other genealogical trees including the ones of the Erbachs, the Castells, the Wieds, the Schonburgs, the Toerring Jettenbachs.. they are so many!(maybe we can include also the Birons von Curland)

 

[jonnydep]

If a princess is considered a dinastic member of her own house by the rules of her own house, she is also for the other houses.

thank you amedea.......i did not know this !!
my concerns are now resolved !!

 

[Benjamin]

There are several eligible young ladies from the House of Reuss:

• Princess Cäcilie Reuss zu Köstritz (b.1972)
• Princess Johanna Reuss zu Köstritz (b.1985)
• Princess Benigna Reuss zu Köstritz (b.1980)
• Princess Anna Reuss zu Köstritz (b.1975)
• Princess Maria Concetta Reuss zu Köstritz (b.1988)
• Princess Maria Viktoria Reuss zu Köstritz (b.1993)

We could also mention Duchess Helene in Bavaria (b.1972) and Princess Maya of Georgia (b.1978; assuming she isn't married).

 

[Marsel]

Princess Maya is married (I think she married in 2002 or 2003).
Thanks a lot for adding the ladies from the House of Reuss!

 

[Benjamin]

You're welcome! Thanks for informing about the marriage of Princess Maya!

Slightly off-topic (sorry ), but is Maya the mother of Themour and Anna Chichinadzé whom are mentioned here: Liste des prétendants au trône de Géorgie - Wikipédia

 

[Odette]

Well, if Prince George doesn't care for his mother (and potentially, his) claims to the Headship of the House of Romanov, he can marry whoever he wants: he will just lose any succession rights the moment he enters into morganatic marriage. And since I do like George quite a lot, I hope he will marry for love, not for title.

Prince George belongs to the House of Hohenzollern, whatever his mother/grandfather might have decreed.

Thanks. You more or less confirmed what I thought to be the truth.
There is so much doubt about Maria's claim as the only legitimate pretender to the Romanov throne and her son's chances of becoming a Tsar are minimal.
Besides, how true, through his father he is more Hohenzollern than Romanov.

 

[Marsel]

You are most welcome, Odette!

You're welcome! Thanks for informing about the marriage of Princess Maya!
Slightly off-topic (sorry ), but is Maya the mother of Themour and Anna Chichinadzé whom are mentioned here: Liste des prétendants au trône de Géorgie - Wikipédia

Yes, she is.
Although the boy’s name is pronounced ‘Teymour’, not ‘Themour’ (small difference, I know).

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't the English version of the Line of the Succession to the Georgian Throne include Princess Anne's or Princess Maya's children? All 4 were born in lawful marriages, there has never been a Salic law or concept of an equal/morganatic marriage in Georgia, so I can't see any coherent reason why Prince Nugzar's grandchildren are omitted.

 

[Benjamin]

Thanks, Marsel!

Especially for clarifying that Themour is actually Teymour and a boy, and not Thamar and a girl (which is the conclusion I jumped to ).

They probably aren't included simply because no one knew they exist...There is a real dearth of information in English-language sources concerning the modern Bagration-Gruzinskys.

 

[Marsel]

Actually, you may be right.
I know Princess Maya has two children, but I don’t know their gender. Teymour (or Timor/Timour) is a commonly encountered Georgian name, Themour (however pronounced) isn’t, which is why I assumed it’s Teymour. It might have as well been a misspelled version of Tamar actually.
In fact, I seem to remember that no boys have been born to Prince Nugzar’s family for 50 years (although I’m not sure whether they meant direct patrilineal heirs, or literally no boys at all), so your conclusion may be more accurate.

 

[vsriCo]

Grand Duke Vladimir was not a Reigning Monarch (even his claims to the Headship of the House were disputed), he certainly did not seek or get any sort of approval from Parliament (which didn’t exist at the time anyway), the child had already been registered in Germany as “Prince George of Prussia” but his maternal grandfather used cheap trickery to re-register him in France (without even the courtesy of notifying poor Prince Franz Wilhelm first) as Grand Duke George of Russia. If George’s name had been changed to Prince Mickey Mouse of Disney, that wouldn’t make him Prince of Disneyland, would it?

GD Vladimir was the indisputable head of the house. The head of the family as monarch never required approval of parliament either. I don't consider what the GD was registered in Germany as being relevant, giving that his father had converted to Orthodox and adopted the title and name GD Mikhailovich Pavlovich. He must of known that GD Vladimir and Maria intended for George to continue the familys claim of headship.

In the end I think it comes down to what powers you ascribe to the non-reigning head of the family.

 

[Royal Fan]

I Thik any list of Possible Brides should include Lady Gabriella Windsor

 

[Benjamin]

He must of known that GD Vladimir and Maria intended for George to continue the familys claim of headship.

He did, you are exactly right. Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia was already quite aware that his son would be raised as the heir to the Headship of the Imperial House.

At the time of his conversion to Orthodoxy in July 1976, Franz Wilhelm agreed to the terms set forth by Grand Duke Wladimir when he granted his consent to the marriage. One of the stipulations that Franz Wilhelm promised to fulfill was that any issue resulting from the union would bear the surname "Romanoff Grand Duke/Duchess of Russia" first with "Prince/Princess of Prussia" attached at the end.

However, when the only son was born in Spain, he was registered with the name "Jorge prinz von Preussen Romanoff."

As that was not what was agreed upon, the mother of the child, "S.A.I. Maria Romanoff Grande-duchesse de Russie," (at the behest of her parents, no doubt) petitioned in France on 26 August 1982 for her infant son's last name to be changed to "Romanoff-grand-duc de Russie prinz von Preussen." The couple was separated by this time, and a report had actually surfaced that they were indeed already divorced.

Anyways, the point is that Franz Wilhelm knew in advance what he was marrying into and what was expected.

 

[branchg]

While it's true Vladimir and Louis-Ferdinand agreed to the terms of the marriage contract, including the conversion of Franz-Wilhelm to Orthodoxy and his relinquishing his style as Prinz von Pruessen, this was null and void with their divorce in 1982.

The marriage, while technically equal, was certainly not the usual precedent and practice of royal matrimony among the houses, since a woman always took her style and title from her husband as did any children. Maria was not a reigning monarch, which is usually the only time husbands convert to another religion and assume a style or title that grants them the status of a consort. Nor was she the heir in 1976, since there were male cousins of Vladimir who remained dynasts at the time and took precedence over Maria.

No matter what was agreed, with Vladimir's death, Maria Vladimirovna has a shaky claim, at best, as the sole remaining dynast and de-jure Tsarina. She was not born of an equal marriage and her son is without question a Hohenzollern, so it's a stretch to think otherwise.

 

[Benjamin]

Maria Wladimirovna's rank is only disputed by the two elderly sons of Roman Petrovich and several descendants of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich. Whatever our opinions may be, her title of Grand Duchess and status as Head of the Imperial House are recognized by the Russian Government, the Russian Orthodox Church, and the Royal Houses of Europe. And that isn't too shabby.

 

[branchg]

I agree she is, without question, the Head of the Imperial House. And her rank and title as Grand Duchess is appropriate given her father's undisputed position as the Head of the House and the fact she succeeded him in 1992.

The question of whether she is truly a dynast under the Pauline Laws is entirely another matter. But the fact is Vladimir ruled his marriage was equal, which was within his perogative, and that's the end of that.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

It is always annoying when correspondents put forward a premise that they know is spurious yet sounds feasable or fits in with their argument. It is also understandable, but please allow us to consider aspects that may not sit comfortably with our personal or party view.

Grand Duke George may have been given a name that included the words prince and Prussia, but Germany abrogated nobility in 1919 and therefore it wasn't as such a title being registered, just a birth and name. There is no question that the Bagrtids are not royal.

Grand Duke Geroge's choice of bride will have nothing to do with The Grand Duchess Maria. Let us hope he is honourable and man enough (unlike the pliable Prince of Wales) in choosing to marry the woman he loves. This is surely what the Russian people would want. Make an arranged marriage for him and you will alienate the people who will decide if he will become their next emperor or not.

 

[vsriCo]

There is no question that the Bagrtids are not royal.

The Bagrations are Royal. Whether or not they were royal at the time is another matter.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

I must apologise for my poor syntax. I meant to write that the Bagratid princes being formerly of a sovereign house, are indeed royal in all respects.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

When I read correspondents debating issues pertinent to this site I am sometimes convinced they live in a time warp. The world has moved on in 90 years. One of the many reasons autocrats were deposed (often by the ruling classes of their realms) was this idiosynchratic invention of equal marriage. In Christian countries organtic marriage it is anathema and the Church disapproves of such machinations.

Russia was heavily influenced by the strange rituals of the minor princely German families (who incidentally didn't have royal titles until 200 years ago mostly) and the so called house rules of equal marriage was more an economic mechanism. Perhaps like the American country club. I dare use the words: snobbery and inflated self esteem, more akin to the new capitalist merchant classes than anicent feudalism. The early Romanovs married good people with neither rank nor title, perhaps not actual peasants, but after the fall of autocracy in Russia house rules have no status. The enforcement had been by decree. As there is no reigning family then present Romanovs who stand by these, frankly ludicrous, rules have become a laughing stock.
In their jockying for family headship they have forgotten that the Russian people rejected them. If they want to regaine some self respect they have to drag themselves into reality and the 21st century.

If the GD Maria Vladimirova insists on a spurious dynastic marriage for her son she in effect becomes an embarrassment.

 

[Odette]

If her claim that she is the only legitimate heir to the last Csars because of her parents' marriage how can she pretend to look the other way? Regardless of how we feel she must keep up appearances and make sure her son contracts an equal marriage.