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  #81  
Old 07-04-2009, 08:33 AM
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Very unlike the Queen to bow to anyone except heads of state (and then I cannot recall if and when), the Pope or a crowned sovereign such as the king of Greece or Queen Beatrix) . I cannot see her bowing to Prince Nicholas but he of course would bow to her as a crowned sovereign. Just my thoughts
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  #82  
Old 07-04-2009, 11:16 AM
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The Queen stood to greet Nicholas Romanov at an event in London some years ago, which is a simple mark of courtesy and good manners. I wouldn't read too much into it since she does that all the time.

Nicholas Romanov is not the Head of the Imperial House nor is he a Prince of Russia with the style of Highness. He is a morganatic descendant of a dynast, Prince Roman, who married unequally and without the consent of Grand Duke Vladimir. As such, his children have no princely style or imperial rank.
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  #83  
Old 07-04-2009, 11:51 AM
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Well put and explained.

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Originally Posted by Michael HR View Post
Very unlike the Queen to bow to anyone except heads of state (and then I cannot recall if and when), the Pope or a crowned sovereign such as the king of Greece or Queen Beatrix) . I cannot see her bowing to Prince Nicholas but he of course would bow to her as a crowned sovereign. Just my thoughts
Queen Elizabeth never has to (and never did) bow to another Head of the State.
Some elected Heads of the State may bow to Reigning Monarchs (especially female ones) or their Consorts as a courtesy gesture, however as a rule, Heads of the States don't have to bow to each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windsorbrides1
Prince Nicholas Romanovich Romanov is considered the Head of the Russian Imperial Family by the British and Germans - who are the two most important families in Europe as far as recognition is concerned. Both Queen Elizabeth and the Queen Mother have bowed to Nicholas.
<>
The story of the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother and/or Queen Elizabeth ever bowing to Prince Nicholas have no foundation, as can be seen from Warren's and branchg's posts.

I am not sure where did you get the idea that Prince Nicholas is acknowledged as Head of the Imperial Family by the British Royal Family; I've never heard of it.
In any case, he is certainly not the most widely accepted and acknowledged one and certainly not in Russia, where very few have actually heard about him at all.
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  #84  
Old 07-06-2009, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Why is she responsible for what her great-grandfather did?
Because the rest of the family holds her to it.
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  #85  
Old 07-06-2009, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
When this little story was repeated in another thread and the source (a Peter Kurth book?) consulted last year, the truth turned out to be more commonplace.
No Warren, my darling Peter did not write that, that came from Robert Massie's "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" and it is, like you said, HM bowed out of courtsey and not to acknowledge him as head of the IF.
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  #86  
Old 07-06-2009, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by windsorbrides1 View Post
Prince Nicholas Romanovich Romanov is considered the Head of the Russian Imperial Family by the British and Germans - who are the two most important families in Europe as far as recognition is concerned. Both Queen Elizabeth and the Queen Mother have bowed to Nicholas.

Below Information by Wikipedia:

Nicholas considers following the death of Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovich in 1992 that he is now head of the House of Romanov and his rightful successor.On the basis that Vladimir Cyrillovich was the last male dynast and all other Romanovs are excluded due to their parents' unequal marriages, Vladimir's daughter Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna also put forward a claim to the headship of the imperial house on her father's death. With the exception of Grand Duchess Maria, Prince Nicholas is recognized by the rest of the family as head of the Imperial House.The new London-based publishers of the Almanach de Gotha also recognised him as head of the house.However, the final edition of the Almanach de Gotha published by Justus Perthes, in 1944, stated that the marriage of Nicholas's parents was "not in conformity with the laws of the house" although some previous editions had listed him as a dynastic member of the Imperial House. Prince Nicholas has said regarding unequal marriages in the Imperial Family:
“ Our parents married commoners. So what? We have married commoners. Again, so what? There was nobody to ask us to renounce our rights, so we married without renouncing them, and we and our children still have rights to the throne of Russia. ” Prince Nicholas led the Romanov family at the funeral in St. Petersburg of the last Russian Emperor Nicholas II and his family in July 1998. As head of the family he was also present at the reburial of the remains of the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna in Russia in September, 2006. Prince Nicholas and his brother Prince Dmitri had been responsible for lobbying the Danish royal family and the Russian President Vladimir Putin to allow the transfer of the Dowager Empress’s remains to Russia so they could be buried alongside her husband Emperor Alexander III
Yet in 2006 it was the Grand Duchess that stood pride of place alongside the visiting Danish, English and Greek entourages at the service of reburial.

I may be wrong, but isn't Maria considered by the Russian Orthodox Church to be the rightful claimant?
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  #87  
Old 07-06-2009, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Royale View Post
I may be wrong, but isn't Maria considered by the Russian Orthodox Church to be the rightful claimant?
You are correct, Madame Royale. The Grand Duchess met several times with the late Patriarch Alexis. Grand Duchess Maria attended the funeral of the Patriarch as well as the enthronization of his successor, Patriarch Cyril.

Maria was also present at the 2007 ceremony to mark the unification of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia. This is perhaps not surprising as the Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich and his family had enjoyed friendly relations with the ROCOR throughout the years.
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  #88  
Old 07-07-2009, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
No Warren, my darling Peter did not write that, that came from Robert Massie's "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" and it is, like you said, HM bowed out of courtsey and not to acknowledge him as head of the IF.
Massie it is then.
At the risk of repeating myself, HM did not "bow", she stood. What actually occurred was established when this urban myth was first raised in the Russian Forum last year.
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  #89  
Old 07-07-2009, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Massie it is then.
At the risk of repeating myself, HM did not "bow", she stood. What actually occurred was established when this urban myth was first raised in the Russian Forum last year.
That's right! You set me straight on the "bowing" thing too. This is what happens when you're a Yankee!
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  #90  
Old 07-26-2009, 10:44 AM
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The Grand Duchess visited Belarus recently (from July 16 to July 22). It marked the very first official visit made by a member of the Russian Imperial Family after the collapse of the Russian Empire.
She visited cities, as well as several villages: Maria Vladimirovna seemed to be most impressed with the innovative technologies used at Belarusian farms.

All the Belorussian officials she was presented to, had to strictly follow protocol details (kiss her hand, bow/curtsy, address to her as “Your Highness” and speak only when asked to).

The Grand Duchess also gave an interview, during which she discussed the question of identification of the remains found last year, presumably of the members of the Imperial Family (maintaining that the “Imperial Family will certainly recognize the results of the tests if they are beyond reasonable doubt) and her dearest wish: to live in Russia (although she did note that 'arrangements have to be made', as the Imperial Family must live up to ‘certain standards’). Maria Vladimirovna said that she still 'awaits proposals from the Russian Government on the matter'.

Member of one of Belarusian nationalist parties stirred a minor controversy when he maintained that Maria Vladimirovna (and other Romanovs) should apologize to the people of Belarus for 'years of oppression' (during the Russian Empire) and only then they should be allowed to enter the country.
Others questioned just in what capacity the Grand Duchess visited the country and what exactly she has to do with Belarus in any way.


Two pictures from the visit:
*picture 1* *picture 2*

For Russian-speaking members, here are two articles about the visit (summary was given above):
*Article 1* *Article 2*
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  #91  
Old 07-26-2009, 07:58 PM
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My goodness! That's Anna Ivanova all over again, isn't it. .
And what would she bring to Belarus to help them as a country, one wonders. I also have to wonder why she would be so surprised that they have technology? Did she think they stayed in the dark ages after the revolution?
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  #92  
Old 07-26-2009, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
My goodness! That's Anna Ivanova all over again, isn't it. .
And what would she bring to Belarus to help them as a country, one wonders. I also have to wonder why she would be so surprised that they have technology? Did she think they stayed in the dark ages after the revolution?
I believe Maria Vladimirovna was interested in some innovative technology, not just surprised at the presence of any technology.

As for what she can bring to the people of Belarus (and why they would want it anyway), I'm afraid it's beyond me: so far, I haven't seen her doing any constructive work for Russia, let alone other parts of the former Empire.
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  #93  
Old 07-28-2009, 09:35 PM
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I have to say, I'm kind of annoyed that Maria went to Belarus and had all that protocol done to her. She is so caught up in her family's past! Who does she think she is, having people bow and kiss her hand? While the rest of the Romanovs do not want the monarchy back, Maria goes around acting like the monarchy is back. Doesn't she realize most Russians do not want a monarchy? Also, like you said Marsel, she hasn't done anything for Russia or the rest of the former Empire.

I believe someone once said on this forum that the Grand Duchess just wants the privileges that comes with royalty. I believe that is the case for her.

Just my 2 cents.
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  #94  
Old 07-28-2009, 10:02 PM
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I have to agree with you, Sonjapearl.
Maria Vladimirovna comes across as needy and demanding, without actually caring to do even a little.
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  #95  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sonjapearl View Post
Who does she think she is, having people bow and kiss her hand?
The Head of the Imperial House of Russia, maybe?

Grand Duchess Maria was her father's only child and heir. Her much-awaited arrival occured when her parents were in their mid to late thirties and were perhaps worried that they might never become parents. I am sure they lavished their daughter with attention and affection.

Maria's godfather was Grand Duke Andrei (the last surviving uncle of her father), and her godmother was Queen Giovanna of Bulgaria. How many babies born in the second half of the 20th century had both a Queen and Grand Duke as godparents?

Wladimir and Leonida raised their daughter from an early age to be aware of her dynastic position and responsibilities. Why do people dislike her for doing what she was brought up to do?

Maria Vladimirovna, like her father before her, has abided by the Fundamental Laws, while on the the other hand the remaining Romanovs (ie "Prince" Nicholas and his brother) are morganauts.

The Grand Duchess is the only Romanov of her generation to have contracted an equal marriage. In my opinion, that was a great personal sacrifice on her part. The Imperial House would have gone extinct had Maria Vladimirovna not married another royal. Yet, she did marry a prince because it was what she saw to be her duty.

Grand Duchess Maria and her ex-husband Grand Duke Michael (ne Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia) became the parents of an only son, Grand Duke George, who is now the heir to his mother.

Most people have jobs. It just so happens that Grand Duchess Maria and her supporters believe that her job-for-life is to be the Head of the Russian Imperial Family. Therefore, Maria Vladimirovna behaves in a way that a de jure Empress of All the Russias would.
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  #96  
Old 07-29-2009, 03:02 PM
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I am not too surprised that Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna demanded the royal treatment. She appears to like the special treatment afforded to foreign royals visiting Russia or any other CIS republic. Additionally, I dare to assume that post-Soviet territories and Russian communities abroad are the only places, where Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna can demand this special treatment.
Additionally, it is not surprising that some people in Belarus consider the Tsarist regime as oppressive as the communist one. Perhaps, it is a high time for the head of the Russian Imperial Household to apologise for cruel actions against Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, or Kazakhs committed by her ancestors. The Romanovs were not exactly angels.
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  #97  
Old 07-29-2009, 04:32 PM
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Granted, the Romanovs might not have been angels, but quite a few members of the Imperial Family have become saints.

As you know, Maria Vladimirovna likes to emphasize the fate of Nicholas II and his family as much as possible. Perhaps the Head of the Russian Imperial House believes that the execution of the last reigning Russian Emperor and his family atones for any wrongs the later Romanovs may have committed during their rule?
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  #98  
Old 07-29-2009, 05:02 PM
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Benjamin, Maria Vladimirovna is not the Head of the Imperial House. She proclaims herself to be one and, granted, is the most accepted candidate. However, she has never been officially recognized as one.

In any case, I may be mistaken but I don't think other Royals from non-reigning Houses demand a bow/curtsey. And they certainly don't demand 'kissing the hand' or 'never speaking without being addressed to' - and that in Belarus, not even in Russia!]
Archduke Otto of Austria, for one, can boast ancestry at least as illustrious as Maria Vladimirovna's and his old age alone is enough to command a respect: yet, he never demands a bow or curtsy: some people may prefer to do so, out of respect, but it's they do it of their own free will.


Maria Vladimirovna is, I am afraid, highly irrelevant for Russia, Russian people or for people of the other parts of the former Russian Empire. And I'm not sure a lot of Russian's are even aware or care of her 'sacrifice' - marrying a fellow Royal.
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  #99  
Old 07-29-2009, 05:48 PM
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I'd say the way Maria is treated pretty much makes her recognised as the Head of the family.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
Granted, the Romanovs might not have been angels, but quite a few members of the Imperial Family have become saints.

As you know, Maria Vladimirovna likes to emphasize the fate of Nicholas II and his family as much as possible. Perhaps the Head of the Russian Imperial House believes that the execution of the last reigning Russian Emperor and his family atones for any wrongs the later Romanovs may have committed during their rule?
That is why a fair number of younger Russians, who have nothing to do with communists, dislike her. Grand Duchess Maria Vladimorivna seems to visit Russia and remind Russians of the cruel death of Nicholas II and his family. Have you ever seen a member of the French royal family reminding Frenchmen of unfair executions of Louis XVI and his wife? There is a whole new generation of Russians, who do not care about the Romanovs and communists, who executed them, very much. Furthermore, I do not think that the death of one family that ruled the Russia and nearby territories with an iron fist, treated peasants as slaves (I mean the law of serfdom and the way Russian nobility treated their serfs), grabbed lands in the Central Asia, and tried to cruelly subdue the nations of the Caucasus region, is enough to atone the 300 years of atrocities committed by the Romanovs, who contributed to their own demise. As I have stated earlier, communism and Tsarism have got a lot in common. Each regime got what it deserved.
Anyway ... when it comes to Grand Duchess and her son, I fully share Marsel's opinion.
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