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  #441  
Old 03-20-2012, 09:22 AM
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I have not much to add but TomBert you worded my opinion about the Vladimirovich clan perfectly. Esp. about it being normal to take action while the monarchy was very obviously heading for distruction (perhaps they should have been more forceful!) and also about GDss Maria Vladimirovna.
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  #442  
Old 03-20-2012, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by TomBert View Post
Grand Duke Kyril did not demand the headship of the Imperial House, he inherited it. He also waited until 1924 to declare himself Head of the Imperial House (and assumed the title of Emperor; an unnecessary move I think). Six years after the death of Nicholas II, so I think it safe to assume that the late Emperor's body was well and truly cold by then. It was also four years before the death of the Dowager Empress, not a minute after. Call me old fashioned, but I think it would be a good idea to get the facts right before before condemning someone's actions as "disgusting".
I agree with you. Whether you want it or not, the Headship of the House demands responsibilities, even if it is a House of an abolished Monarchy.

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As to Kyril's choices in 1917? Perhaps he could, or should, have behaved differently. But they were tumultuous times and who knows how any of us would have acted. Ultimately it is not relevant to Kyril's inheritance. Abandoning the Empress may have been a cowardly act, but it was not an act that could deprive Kyril of his place in the succession.
While I do think that the behaviour of the entire Vladimirovichi clan acted cowardly during the revolution (rather akin to that of Louis XVI's brothers and their wives prior to the revolution), I concede that we cannot tell how any of us would have behaved in similar circumstances.
As for deprivation of his rights, that is a matter of debate. Some could say that Kyril's action constituted treason and he was thus automatically ineligible to succeed his cousin. In other words, the same arguments that were used against the Duke of Orleans and his descendants.

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I would be interested to see evidence of Grand Duchess Maria "denouncing" the rest of the family. As far as I am aware she simply states the facts as she sees them; her male relatives excluded themselves as dynasts, end of story. At least she is never rude like Nicholas Romanovich with his comments about his "fat cousin" in Madrid. He may (or may not) be a Prince, but he is certainly not a gentleman.
Couldn't agree more. While I do happen to like Prince Nicholas, he was exceedingly rude towards Maria Vladimirovna. Now, the rift is hardly one-sided; the Grand Duchess has denounced her Romanov relatives to a certain extent. But name-calling is just childish.

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As for Rostislav, well good luck to him. If all you are interested in is someone called Romanoff as the representative of a family association, he could be your man. But Rostislav's descent from Grand Duchess Xenia is irrelevant. He is a Romanoff because he is descended from Nicholas I, not Alexander III.
The thing about Rostislav isn't his actual rights to the Headship of the House; they are shaky at best. It's just that he is viewed as the likeliest candidate should the Monarchy be reinstated at some point. He is the most "Russian" of all current heirs (not in terms of blood, but culture); he lives in Moscow, has greatly improved his Russian and actually appears to genuinely care for the country. Not to mention, he's quite charming. Now, much as I would like Maria Vladimirovna and/or Prince Georgi to one day assume the Throne (provided, of course, there is a restoration), it is highly unlikely. Unless Georgi marries a Russian royal/noble with stellar Russian ancestry, there is absolutely no chance the people of Russia would ever accept him. Georgi is 1/4 Georgian and 1/2 German; if you know anything about Russians, you'll know that is an unacceptable combination.
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  #443  
Old 03-21-2012, 04:09 AM
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I do not know if Kyril's actions can be classed as treason, though they were certainly in poor taste. The Emperor abdicated on the 2nd of March (Old Style). The Empress stated that she "was utterly disgusted with Ducky's husband"* two day's later on March the 4th in a letter to the Emperor. So it looks like his recognition of the Provincial Government came after the Emperor's abdication. Can that be classed as treason? Does an abdication automatically absolve a sovereign's subjects of their oaths of loyalty?

*A lifelong pasion: Nicholas and Alexandra their own story London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1996, p. 552.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:48 AM
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It wouldnt absolve his family, who would have known it was a forced abdication, but marching down Nevsky Prospect waving a red flag and swearing allegiance to the new government did nothing to boost his reputation within the family. It was seen for what it was, self promotion.
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  #445  
Old 03-21-2012, 12:29 PM
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Or maybe Kyrill was just attempting to ensure that his pregnant wife and two young daughters would be safe until such a time as they could flee the country?
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  #446  
Old 03-21-2012, 02:16 PM
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i gotta wasnt Rostislav born in the untied states which the anti amercian ism in russia works agasint him in claim wise as well
and 2nd benjamin that doesnt explain kyrill s mothers lobby the duma in 1916 for a punsch and to install her son as regant the bad blood in the family was starting to boil and people forget mikhal romanov had a claim before kyril so yes in most terms it can be said it does account for treason in a point of veiw espically if he had the troops to break the uprising in st perterburg and didnt do anything as for their claim well they been wanting the throne since the 1880s but i did laugh at that time article from 1998 when gergii was said to have tryed out the throne in the dirctor of the hertimage musem to yeltson where he tryed out the throne
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  #447  
Old 03-21-2012, 11:43 PM
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[QUOTE=TomBert;1388375]I can understand the ambitions of Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna. There she was with three sons within spitting distance of the Throne, while the occupant of said Throne was on the path to self destruction. It seems quite natural that by 1916 this branch of the family saw themselves as a viable alternative to the appalling incompetency of Nicholas and Alexandra. If I was Maria Pavlovna I am sure I too would have explored options for getting all political power out of the hands of the Empress. Desperate times call for desperate measures. But it was probably too late for any branch of the family to avoid the imminent catastrophe."

Nicholas was not listening to anyone except Alexandra and Rsputin including his immediate and extended family, politicians, friends, and generals. It was at the point in 1916 where he had put in jeapardy the monarchy and potentially his family. He was at the front and Alexandra was running things with RAsputin which led to his own family killing Rasputin. Alexei was a sickly kid who was not expected to reach adulthood, Michael had been removed from succesion for marrying a noble and Kyrill was the presumed heir. It was not ambition but fact that if Nicholas had to abdicate - Kyrill would be Tsar.

From Wikipedia's Nicholas II
Under pressure from the attempted 1905 Russian Revolution, on 5 August of that year Nicholas II issued a manifesto about the convocation of the State Duma, initially thought to be an advisory organ. Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, the younger sister of Nicholas II, wrote, "There was such gloom at Tsarskoye Selo. I did not understand anything about politics. I just felt everything was going wrong with the country and all of us. The October Constitution did not seem to satisfy anyone. I went with my mother to the first Duma. I remember the large group of deputies from among peasants and factory people. The peasants looked sullen. But the workmen were worse: they looked as though they hated us. I remember the distress in Alicky's eyes."[34]
Minister of the Court Count Fredericks commented, "The Deputies, they give one the impression of a gang of criminals who are only waiting for the signal to throw themselves upon the ministers and cut their throats. I will never again set foot among those people."[35] The Dowager Empress noticed "incomprehensible hatred."[35]

[QUOTE=TomBert;1388375]Post 1917/1918 it was simply a dynastic fact that Kyril was Head of the Imperial House. He and his successors have taken the view that they have a certain duty to maintain aspects of their heritage, just like any number of non-reigning houses. If the rest of the family does not agree, as they obviously do not, so be it. "

[QUOTE=TomBert;1389168]Grand Duke Kyril did not demand the headship of the Imperial House, he inherited it. He also waited until 1924 to declare himself Head of the Imperial House (and assumed the title of Emperor; an unnecessary move I think). Six years after the death of Nicholas II, so I think it safe to assume that the late Emperor's body was well and truly cold by then. It was also four years before the death of the Dowager Empress, not a minute after. Call me old fashioned, but I think it would be a good idea to get the facts right before before condemning someone's actions as "disgusting".

As to Kyril's choices in 1917? Perhaps he could, or should, have behaved differently. But they were tumultuous times and who knows how any of us would have acted. Ultimately it is not relevant to Kyril's inheritance. Abandoning the Empress may have been a cowardly act, but it was not an act that could deprive Kyril of his place in the succession."

Nicholas had put the lives of his entire family at risk, and Kyril did what he had to in order to save his family. It might have been more admirable to have not worn the red armband, and to have sent his family to safety and stayed himself like Michael but it does not change his claim. The reason he did to assume the headship until 1924 was because that was when Michael was declared dead.

When Nicholas did abdicate it was in favour of Michael and in doing as such had reinstated into succession and thus arguably permitting noble marriages. Kyril's red armband and other actions may have caused this. But he was not taken out of succession - just demoted. Michael decided not to serve as Tsar until an election could take place so as to make Russia a constitutional monarchy first. He disappear before this happened and was actually killed before Nicholas and his family but not declared dead til 1924.

Some rejected Kyril as Tsar due to his actions in favour of no one in particular, but others saw Michael's son George as heir as son of the last Tsar. George was born before his parents' marriage which was morgantic and without consent, but Nicholas later returned Michael's estates, and legitimized George making him Michael's heir - but as a Count not and a Grand Duke. Becoming Tsar had put him back in succession, it legitimized Michael's marriage and made George as his heir - his heir in succession.

But others, such as the Vladimirovich, rejected Michael was ever Tsar and considered Nicholas's abdication as an act under duress. That is why Kyril is listed after Nicholas as head with often a vacancy from 1917-24. However, Kyril did declare George a Prince and when George died in a car accident in 1930, Kyril was undeniably the heir.

Ironically, their rejection of Michael and George's rights of succession have hurt them in the end since the case against Maria is based on he mom being a noble not a royal. All the others are married to or the child of a commoner and thus not affected. Allowing noble marriage, would have also improved George's chances of finding an acceptable bride .
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  #448  
Old 03-22-2012, 01:19 AM
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I understand more than anything that while times were desperate, out of decency Kyril should have restrained himself enough to NOT declare himself Tsar while the Dowager Empress was alive and also wait until a more acceptable time and preferably NOT pick a fight with the rest of the Romanovs. I just wonder, why is it so important for the Vladimirs to claim headship at all?
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  #449  
Old 03-22-2012, 04:19 AM
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Grand Duke Kyril inherited the headship of the Imperial House, so there was no reason to "claim" anything. I do not think he should have declared himself Emperor, but that was his choice. His manifesto of 1924 gives his reasons. Why was it important to make such a public statement? Well I suppose for the same reason that any number of non-reigning families continue with the practice of an hereditary head of the house long after the loss of the crown. It is their tradition, and also gives a focus for supporters who would like like their monarchy restored. Grand Duke Kyril's son and grand-daughter have simply continued this tradition. That seems quite logical and acceptable to my way of thinking.

I do not see why Grand Duke Kyril should have waited for the Dowager Empress to die before publicly assuming the role of Head of the Imperial House, that is not the way royal succession works. "The King is Dead, Long Live the King" takes priority over the feelings of an elderly lady (after all she had already coped with her own relegation from Empress to Dowager). Grand Duke Kyril waited over six years to publicly take on his inheritance, that is hardly the action of a ruthlessly ambitious man. If his actions alienated some members of the family, well too bad.
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  #450  
Old 03-22-2012, 05:55 AM
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The Grand Duchess affirms her belief in monarchy. Well call me old fashioned, but that is exactly what I expect from the Head of the Imperial House of Russia. I like her message. The Grand Duchess clearly accepts that a restoration is not likely, and even if it does happen it is entirely up to the people of Russia. It is also setting the scene for next year's 400th anniversary of the election of Tsar Mikhail. I hope this occasion is marked appropriately with the Grand Duchess taking a central role.

Of course some people will always twist, for their own purposes, whatever the Grand Duchess says, turning her into some revolting caricature of the fine lady she seems to be. But as with any rudeness the best response is to ignore it.
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  #451  
Old 03-22-2012, 12:08 PM
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I don't get what GD is saying about a 'monarchy' in Russia. First, she sounds like Nikolai II when he thought that God alone ordained the duties and power of the Tsar on him. Continuing, she says she believes it is suitable and useful for 'our multi-national country'. Then, she says a restoration of Monarchy is premature and she rejects it saying it can only happen with the consent of 'the People'. What people is she referring to? She contradicts herself. There were demonstations of people who did not like Putin being re-elected as President. What does she think will happen as far as a restoration of the Romanov monarchy? She is dreaming. Does anyone know when the first prime minister of Russia surfaced?
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  #452  
Old 03-22-2012, 03:33 PM
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You are posing correct questions and making correct observations. Not liking President Putin does not automatically translate into supporting the restoration.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:37 PM
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Very astute, my dear Al Bina. No one is excited about a Romanov restoration, except Maria.
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  #454  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:02 PM
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I still can't figure out what is so bad about Putin. Not saying I like the guy, I mean I literally have no idea where to find legit info about him and his policies and if he is good for Russia.
But what I know so far, he's better than delusional Marie and her captive son.
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  #455  
Old 03-22-2012, 11:52 PM
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Say that to an American politician or French citizen and I am more than sure that she will get an earful about monarchy.
And would we expect anything less from the said politician's? Biased much..

Maria is just as welcome to express an opinion as is anyone else and at least she is resolved to stand by her conviction.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Probably because there is nothing wrong with that.

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The Grand Duchess affirms her belief in monarchy. Well call me old fashioned, but that is exactly what I expect from the Head of the Imperial House of Russia. I like her message. The Grand Duchess clearly accepts that a restoration is not likely, and even if it does happen it is entirely up to the people of Russia. It is also setting the scene for next year's 400th anniversary of the election of Tsar Mikhail. I hope this occasion is marked appropriately with the Grand Duchess taking a central role.
Such a sensible and well reasoned post, Tom.
Quote:

Of course some people will always twist, for their own purposes, whatever the Grand Duchess says, turning her into some revolting caricature of the fine lady she seems to be. But as with any rudeness the best response is to ignore it.
I think it suggests much more about them than it does her.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:07 AM
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Since when is Maria the Head of the Imperial House? Last I checked the only one who thought that was Maria herself, not the other Romanov's she likes to pretend don't exist.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:18 AM
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The Russian Orthodox church has made little to no effort to distance itself from the belief that Maria is the rightful claimant. On the contrary, it's been relatively liberal in terms of it's unspoken support as can be seen on many an occasion

Yet, the church has tactfully withheld from 'officially' aligning itself with either faction.
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:48 AM
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Heh, for a while and hten reality would dawn on her, sending ehr into a form of serious shock. Then she would have to endure the constant grins of the rest of the ROmanovs in watching her plans and determination fall to pieces and then she would spend the church service praying for the wedding to be stopped and spend the reception seething in a fine rage.
As they say,it ain't over till the fat lady sings...but her voice shreeks and she has an uncanny smell of breath,or is it her...anyway.She is NOT a grandduchess,a princess at best,nothing else,and no claim to speak of...Madame la Risée de tout Europe....
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Old 03-23-2012, 12:54 AM
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As they say,it ain't over till the fat lady sings...but her voice shreeks and she has an uncanny smell of breath,or is it her...
Lucien, it's unfortunate that your posts are often vulgar of thought and lend nothing to the conversation besides juvenile sarcasm.

If you are unable to participate in a manner that does not involve an eagerness to insult someone you do not know, then perhaps you should lend considerable thought to a hobby that better suits your agenda.

There's no need of it whatsoever here.
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Old 03-23-2012, 01:05 AM
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I do wonder how she will support herself when her sister Helen passes away? If rumours are true she and her sister have been estranged for quite some time now so she may not be her sisters heiress.
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