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  #161  
Old 07-29-2006, 11:36 PM
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Photos of Maria (and family) at some royal events:


Maria with her son and mother at her father's funeral (29 May 1992)


Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna with the Duke of Braganza at the wedding of Duke Friedrich of Württemberg and Princess Marie zu Wied (13 Nov 1993)


Grand Duchesses Maria and Leonida at the marriage of Infanta Cristina of Spain (4 Oct 1997)


Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna and Grand Duke Georgi Mikhailovich at the 90th birthday of the late Comte de Paris (5 Jul 1998)


The Grand Duchess with Letizia Ortiz on the eve of the marriage of the latter to the Prince of the Asturias (22 May 2004)

Source: Corbis; Getty Images
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  #162  
Old 07-30-2006, 12:25 AM
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More photos:

the family at St Briac in the very early 90s


Helena, Georgi, Maria, and Leonida at their Madrid residence in 1997


Maria, Georgi, and Leonida in Moscow in 2000

Source: Corbis
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  #163  
Old 07-30-2006, 07:51 AM
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Grand Duchess Maria is certantly a very elegant lady. I also noticed how close she is to her parents and her son. And he is lucky to have inherited that extraordinary mane of hair from his mother and grandmother's side. Any recent pictures of Maria and Georgi?
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  #164  
Old 07-30-2006, 03:31 PM
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I love that photograph of Maria greeting Letizia! So grand Letizia looks very happy to see Maria. I think I'd be rather intimidated by the titular Empress and Autocrat of All the Russias throwing her arms around me!
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  #165  
Old 07-30-2006, 10:31 PM
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The successor of Russian throne

Hello!

I write very big and serious letter on the successor of Russian throne. I hope that my clause is pleasant to you. I hope that you will leave this letter at this forum.

I live in Russia in which history there was Russian empire. Therefore the question on the successor of Russian throne very much me interests. I have read many different materials of very serious authors which the question on successors of Russian throne and Russian imperial family too interests. I wish to tell, that there are many different points of view on this theme. Therefore I wish to tell to you about the monarchic organizations existing in Russia. In Russia many the monarchic organizations, thus each of them has the sight at problems of inheritance of Russian throne.

One of these monarchic organizations supports descendants of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich. This is Vladimir Kirillovich with wife Leonida, daughter Maria and grandson George. Only the family of Grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich is considered the unique heir-at-law of Russian imperial family and Russian imperial throne. But there are some very serious monarchic organizations which deny the rights Maria and its son George on Russian imperial throne. I wish to tell about their arguments against Maria Vladimirovna and her son George.

First, their ancestor grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was a member of Russian imperial family and the native brother of Russian emperor Alexander III. Except for family of Tsar Alexander III, grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was most close to Russian imperial throne. But Grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich had very serious disagreements with imperial family. Vladimir Aleksandrovich married German princess who has taken a new name Maria Pavlovna. But there is one small "but". The wife of grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich was the Lutheran and has refused to pass in Russian Orthodox Church. This problem has seriously complicated chances Vladimir Aleksandrovich to borrow Russian imperial throne because Russian imperial throne can be borrowed only by prince who is brought up as orthodox Russian, and still also married to orthodox Russian princess. But Maria Pavlovna remained the Lutheran still long time. Only in 1908 she has accepted Orthodoxy. On a twist of fate, serious and terrible illness of the successor of Tsar Nicholas II was the unique reason of transition Maria Pavlovna from a Lutheranism in Orthodoxy. This circumstance gave the certain chance to son of Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Maria Pavlovna Cyril Vladimirovich to borrow Russian imperial throne in case of death of Alexei and scandalous and morganatic marriage of the brother of Tsar Nicholas II.

Secondly, Cyril Vladimirovich has made the roughest mistake when he married the cousin. Under laws of Russian Orthodox Church cousins cannot marry, because such marriages are very close to incest. Sovereign Nicholas II was categorically against such marriage. When this marriage became the come to pass fact, Sovereign Nicholas II has told, that cannot recognize this marriage and deprives their posterity of the right to inheritance of Russian imperial throne.

Thirdly, Cyril Vladimirovich has betraid Russian imperial family and Russian monarchy. In 1917 this grand duke had efficient Russian divisions of guards and had magnificent chances to liquidate the Petersburg disorders and revolts, but he has come over to the party of revolution. Thus, Russian imperial family has got the Egalite.

Fourthly, the son of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich Vladimir married the Georgian woman who had very doubtful reputation and not less doubtful origin. Its wife worked in a night club as the dancer. Her first husband was the rich American businessman who was very close to those financial circles which have supported Russian revolution and overthrow of an imperial monarchy. Her native sister was the wife of Stalinist executioner Beria. This person bears the responsibility for sufferings of tens millions Russian people in the Siberian state camps. Vladimir Kirillovich secretly married the Georgian woman in one orthodox (Serbian, instead of Russian!) churches in Switzerland. But their marriage cannot be equal. Thus, Vladimir Kirillovich and his father had no rights to Russian imperial throne.

Fifthly, their daughter Maria Vladimirovna occurs from a left-handed marriage and has no rights to Russian imperial throne.

Sixthly, Maria is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house owing to its marriage for Prussian prince. Maria should carry surname Hohenzollern. In this situation Maria cannot be the head of the Russian imperial house.

Seventhly, son of Maria and her Prussian husband is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house. His present name is George Hohenzollern. Therefore George Hohenzollern cannot be a member of the Russian imperial house.

In-eighth, in case of employment of Russian imperial throne by George Hohenzollern the Prussian royal family and the German imperial house will start to reign in Russia.

In-ninth, the Russian imperial house has almost stopped the existence because almost all descendants of Russian tsars and grand dukes are married left-handed marriages and have lost the rights to Russian imperial throne.

In-tenth, it is senseless to search for the successor of Russian imperial throne among descendants of Russian great princesses who have married the European princes and have taken a new name (and can be, still also send from Orthodoxy to other belief). Such descendants much also should be not less than 100.

In-eleventh if Russian monarchy will be sometime restored Russian throne can be borrowed any by an outstanding person (as in case of France and Napoleon Bonaparte).

But there are still also some other monarchic organizations.

It is the All-Russia Monarchic Center which considers, that the German princes (Oldenburg dukes) are heir-at-laws of Russian imperial family and Russian imperial throne.

This Russian Imperial Home guard which considers, that only the God knows, who the successor of Russian throne, that only the God will give Tsar for Russian people, that only the God knows, when Russia will restore the monarchy. These monarchists are opponents of transfer of Russian imperial throne to any European sovereign family, and still also consider legitimist ideas senseless and nothing meaning. They consider that if to follow each letter of legitimist laws, Russia can receive tsar from any European aristocrats who can not know Russia, Russian people, Russian orthodox belief, Russian culture, Russian outlook and etc.

You liked my clause? I hope that you do not remove my clause.
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  #166  
Old 07-31-2006, 12:05 PM
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It's a matter of historical record that Nicholas II recognized the conversion of Maria Pavlovna to Orthodoxy in 1908. Furthermore, Cyril and Victoria's marriage was recognized by Nicholas II and she was granted appropriate imperial rank as a Grand Duchess of Russia.

Their marriage met the requirements of the Pauline Law, but Cyril was banished and stripped of his rank by Nicholas II because The Empress Alexandra was furious at Victoria for divorcing her brother, Ernst of Hesse. Nicholas reversed himself on this matter as World War I approached.

There is no question HIH Grand Duke Vladimir was the rightful Head of the Imperial House in exile after the death of his father, Grand Duke Cyril. The various political accusations hurled against Cyril are meaningless in the context of the imperial succession. Under the Pauline Law, Cyril was automatically the new de-jure Emperor as the surviving senior line male after the death of Nicholas II, the Tsarevitch and Grand Duke Michael.

With regard to Vladimir's marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration, there is no doubt it was not an equal marriage to a royal house as defined in the Pauline Law. Divorce was not an obstacle to marriage in the Orthodox Church and Leonida was already Orthodox.

Vladimir was the de-jure Emperor and ruled the marriage was equal, however, this was controversial since some of his cousins had also married Russian noblewoman inscribed in the Books of Nobility and their marriages were not equal.

Maria Vladimirovna is certainly an honorable woman who has carried on her father's responsibilities with great distinction. She may not be the qualified heir to the imperial throne, but has done much to keep the flame burning, which is more than you can say of her cousins.
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  #167  
Old 07-31-2006, 02:41 PM
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I'd disagree with you Russian that Maria has "no rights" to the throne because she most certainly does. Branchg, you say that she isn't "qualified" and I'm not sure what you mean by that. As I see it, she's most definately qualified. She's a faithful Orthodox, she handles engagements extremely well, she handles the media well, she has the breeding, the demeanour and the heir.
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  #168  
Old 07-31-2006, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
Thirdly, Cyril Vladimirovich has betraid Russian imperial family and Russian monarchy. In 1917 this grand duke had efficient Russian divisions of guards and had magnificent chances to liquidate the Petersburg disorders and revolts, but he has come over to the party of revolution. Thus, Russian imperial family has got the Egalite.
The notion that Cyril somehow betrayed the (rapidly deteriorating, it must be said) monarchy is rather ridiculous. First of all, Cyril had two young daughters and a pregnant wife to consider during this time. Secondly, the Emperor abdicated a few days after Cyril placed his troops at the disposal of the provisional government in the hopes that it could somehow restore order to a capital that was descending into anarchy very quickly. I have also seen it said that there was a red flag over the house that the Grand Duke and his family were living in. I don't see the big deal about this, many Russian notables did such things in order to temporarily save their homes/lives from the mobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
Fourthly, the son of grand duke Cyril Vladimirovich Vladimir married the Georgian woman who had very doubtful reputation and not less doubtful origin. Its wife worked in a night club as the dancer. Her first husband was the rich American businessman who was very close to those financial circles which have supported Russian revolution and overthrow of an imperial monarchy. Her native sister was the wife of Stalinist executioner Beria. This person bears the responsibility for sufferings of tens millions Russian people in the Siberian state camps. Vladimir Kirillovich secretly married the Georgian woman in one orthodox (Serbian, instead of Russian!) churches in Switzerland. But their marriage cannot be equal. Thus, Vladimir Kirillovich and his father had no rights to Russian imperial throne.
Leonida's profession prior to her 2nd marriage has nothing to do with anything. Also, her origins are quite clear, she was the 2nd daughter of Prince George Bagrationi of Mukhrani and his wife Elena Zlotnicki, there has never been any doubt about that. I don't see how her marriage to Mr. Kirby is relevant, the man had previously been married to another Bagration. Also, Leonida's sister Maria never married a Beria (1st husband: Alexander Ivanovitch Smirnov; 2nd husband: Pavel Platonovitch Domershikov; 3rd husband: Solomon Bagratovitch Virsaladze; 4th husband: Vassili Korganashvili). Besides I don't see what Maria Bagration's marriages have to do with the Romanovs. How was Wladimir's marriage secret? You say that V & L's marriage was unequal, let me just say that the huge majority of the members of the Gotha disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
Fifthly, their daughter Maria Vladimirovna occurs from a left-handed marriage and has no rights to Russian imperial throne.
This has been addressed so many times I don't think I'll do so again .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
Sixthly, Maria is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house owing to its marriage for Prussian prince. Maria should carry surname Hohenzollern. In this situation Maria cannot be the head of the Russian imperial house.
Wladimir, Maria, Franz Friedrich, and Louis Ferdinand as well as his grandson would disagree with that statement. Maria's husband signed a renunciation of his Prussian rights prior to his marriage. The renunciation was recognized by both Wladimir and Louis Ferdinand. If you say that Maria should be a Hohenzollern, then you say that Elizabeth II and all her children should be Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburgs. I doubt that you would do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
Seventhly, son of Maria and her Prussian husband is a member of Prussian royal family and the German imperial house. His present name is George Hohenzollern. Therefore George Hohenzollern cannot be a member of the Russian imperial house.

Georgi's father renounced.
I can tell you with 100% accuracy that Georgi's legal last name is Romanov. If you doubt that then write to the Grand Duchess and ask for a copy of her son's vital records.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian
In-eighth, in case of employment of Russian imperial throne by George Hohenzollern the Prussian royal family and the German imperial house will start to reign in Russia.
See above posts. Also, then in your opinion the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg is soon to reign in the UK.

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  #169  
Old 07-31-2006, 05:15 PM
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Almost all of the blood royal in Europe is descended from the German or Danish royal houses anyway, including the Romanovs.
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  #170  
Old 07-31-2006, 05:30 PM
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Descended yes but that doesn't mean she is German.
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  #171  
Old 07-31-2006, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Descended yes but that doesn't mean she is German.
...and from what I have read on how passionate she is about her family history, in her heart she is as Russian as the Volga.
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  #172  
Old 08-01-2006, 10:28 AM
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To say she is German is a rather generalistic accusation. In all honesty you could say the same about a lot of Royal Famly's in Europe. The Windsors for instance are of more German ancestry. The Romanovs fall into this category as well. There dynasty is more properly described as th House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. But Maria is most definetly not German, Her mother being Georgian and Her father the product of a Russian Grand Duke and an English princess. Besides when did a monarch have to be from the country they rule? Look back and you will find that that is far from the norm.
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  #173  
Old 08-01-2006, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_rankin
To say she is German is a rather generalistic accusation. In all honesty you could say the same about a lot of Royal Famly's in Europe. The Windsors for instance are of more German ancestry. The Romanovs fall into this category as well. There dynasty is more properly described as th House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. But Maria is most definetly not German, Her mother being Georgian and Her father the product of a Russian Grand Duke and an English princess. Besides when did a monarch have to be from the country they rule? Look back and you will find that that is far from the norm.
That's so true.
And something that gets my attention about her cousins-detractors is that she seems to be the center of all their anger not because of her claims but because of her high profile status. In some way if we draw a parallel to other claimants like Simeon in Bulgaria, the Orleans family in France, etc. The diferrence between them and Maria is plain and simple she is a woman. Which brings up the issue if she is being more attacked by her relatives for being a female pretender than for being a pretender at all? I mean, how many Female Pretenders do we know these days? ...well, there is a certain Princess Aiko still strugling to make a mark in history herself.

Interesting thing to point out too is that Grand Duchess Maria does not get the negative press other pretenders get, like Victor Emanuel in Italy or Constantine in Greece. All the bad vibes are coming from her Romanov family.
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  #174  
Old 08-02-2006, 01:46 AM
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Since there are so many questions about the Romanoff line,
is anyone in Russia considering the Ruriki line as another source?
Someone from the ancient Princely families of Russia might be interesting :)
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  #175  
Old 08-02-2006, 06:28 AM
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Dear friends!

I think, you consider Maria and her son as heir-at-laws of Russian imperial throne because you know only about them. But I have small remarks in this occasion. I think, the majority of participants of Royal Forums lives not in Russia, therefore, probably, many of them do not know, how problems of inheritance of Russian imperial throne are considered in Russia. Thus much serious authors do not consider Maria and her son as successors of Russian imperial family and successors of Russian imperial throne. I wish to tell about very serious arguments against Maria and her son George as successors of Russian imperial throne.

First, I have read through many serious materials of very serious authors which very seriously were interested in problems of inheritance of Russian imperial throne. Alas, all authors of these materials always are firm opponents of a nominee of Maria and her son, as successors of Russian imperial throne.

Secondly, I saw a photocopy of the resolution of Sovereign Nikolas II in which he is written, that Sovereign cannot recognize marriage of Cyril Vladimirovich and his cousin because marriage between the cousin brother and the sister is an incest under laws of Russian Orthodox Church. The posterity from its marriage has been deprived the right to Russian imperial title, it received only a title of princes and the annual maintenance. Therefore their son cannot be the successor of Russian imperial throne because has been deprived such rights at will of Sovereign Emperor.

Thirdly, it is necessary to consider Vladimir Kirillovich's marriage on its Georgian woman. I wish to tell, that Leonida occurs from an ancient nobiliary sort which is a collateral line of a dynasty of the Georgian tsars. I wish to tell, that at connection of Georgia to Russia in 1783 the Georgian population of all estates automatically became the citizen of the Russian sovereigns. Therefore descendants of the Georgian tsars became citizens of the Russian sovereigns. Therefore marriages between members of Russian imperial family and descendants of the Georgian tsars cannot be equal. I wish to tell about marriage of great princess of imperial blood and the representative of this most Georgian sort. This marriage has been recognized not equal, therefore great princess has refused the rights to Russian imperial throne. After a while the escaped members of Russian imperial family have appeared in emigration after revolution and overthrows of a monarchy. After a while Grand duke Cyril has proclaimed itself emperor, and this grand duke HAS been deprived SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN. Its son Vladimir was only the son of grand duke who HAS been deprived SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN. What rights to a nonexistent throne Vladimir who was only the son of grand duke Cyril, DEPRIVED SUCH RIGHTS AT WILL of SOVEREIGN has? This Vladimir has written a paper in which recognizes descendants of the Georgian tsars equal to NONEXISTENT Russian imperial family. After that Vladimir married the Georgian woman. Therefore daughter of Vladimir and Leonida has no rights to a nonexistent Russian imperial throne.

Therefore I cannot consider Maria and her son as heir-at-laws of Russian imperial throne.
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  #176  
Old 08-02-2006, 11:30 AM
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Nicholas II denied approval of Cyril's marriage to Princess Victoria because of her divorce from Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse, who was Empress Alexandra's brother. There was never an objection from the Church, who served The Tsar in any case. Once the Emperor accorded his approval (which is a matter of written, historical record), the matter was closed.

Furthermore, Nicholas II also issued an imperial order to the Senate that Victoria was granted the title of Orthodox Grand Duchess and their daughter was a princess of the blood imperial with the rank of Highness.

Nicholas II most certainly did not recognize Princess Tatiana's marriage in 1911 to a Bagration prince as equal. She renounced her rights to the throne and the Emperor declared their children would have the style of a Prince/Princess Bagration. He did (supposedly) assure Grand Duke Constantine privately that he would not consider the marriage to be morganatic, but he did not act officially.
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  #177  
Old 08-03-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matryoshka
Since there are so many questions about the Romanoff line,
is anyone in Russia considering the Ruriki line as another source?
Someone from the ancient Princely families of Russia might be interesting :)
This week I was reading about the origins of the famous Almanac Gotha, the who is who in royalty. One interesting point was on the case for mediatized families and how many of the great and ancient Russian families were not even mentioned but even the smallest German princedom had an entry. This gave the German princes a leverage to marry royals as equal marriage. By leaving out the Russian princes of the same rank as the counterpart German princes, the Gotha placed them at a lower level. Thus, unnequality of marriage that cost quite a few couples their succesion rights. So many of these ancient Houses older than the Romanovs ended up out of the competition to be viewed for a possible replacement of that dynasty.
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  #178  
Old 08-04-2006, 03:59 AM
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Mediatised Houses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
This week I was reading about the origins of the famous Almanac Gotha, the who is who in royalty. One interesting point was on the case for mediatized families and how many of the great and ancient Russian families were not even mentioned but even the smallest German princedom had an entry. This gave the German princes a leverage to marry royals as equal marriage. By leaving out the Russian princes of the same rank as the counterpart German princes, the Gotha placed them at a lower level.
Without getting too far away from the topic, the term 'mediatised' relates largely to those German and Austrian families who ruled sovereign territories prior to the Napoleonic upheaval and whose lands were absorbed into larger territories ruled by other sovereign princes. The granting of equal marriage rights to these Houses is a Holy Roman Empire construct, as were their titles of 'Prince of the Holy Empire' or 'Count of the Holy Empire', and therefore has no relevance to Russian Princely Houses.
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  #179  
Old 08-07-2006, 05:58 AM
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Excuse me, but I wish to write new the letter.
I hope, that this the letter remains at Royal forums.
I wish to tell to you about some monarchic organizations which exist in Russia.


The All-Russia Monarchic Center is one of such monarchic organizations. Monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider, that the Russian Imperial House does not exist. They consider, that the name national Russian imperial dynasties (Romanovs) has been taken by the German sovereign house of Holstein-Hottorp. The representative of this German family was the nephew of empress Elizabeth which was the daughter of Russian tsar Peter I. Peter I had two daughters Elizabeth and Anna. Elizabeth was Russian Empress in 1740 1761. Its younger sister Anna has married German prince from Holstein-Hottorp at home. They had a son who became Emperor Peter III. Peter III and its wife Ekaterina (the future Russian empress) were Germans by birth. Their son and grandsons still also married the German princesses. Only wife Alexander III was the Danish princess. Last Russian Emperor Nikolay II was Russian of all on 1/256, and still also was married to the German princess. Their children were Russian of all on 1/512. As a matter of fact, Germans reigned in Russia till 1917. Therefore monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider Oldenburg Dukes as close relatives Holstein-Hottorp of the house. Therefore monarchists from the All-Russia Monarchic Center consider Oldenburg Dukes as heir-at-laws of Russian Imperial Family and Russian Imperial Throne.

But still also there is other monarchic organization which refers to as Russian Imperial Home guard. Monarchists from Russian Imperial Home guard are categorical opponents of the invitation of any European sovereign family on Russian throne. These monarchists consider, that only the God knows, who the successor of Russian imperial throne, that only the God knows, when Russia will restore the monarchy, that only the God will give Tsar for Russian people. Therefore these monarchists are opponents legitimist laws because consider, that if to follow each letter of legitimist laws, Russia can receive tsar from any European sovereign family which can not know Russian, Russian orthodox belief, Russian culture, Russian traditions and customs and similar to volume.
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  #180  
Old 08-07-2006, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
This week I was reading about the origins of the famous Almanac Gotha, the who is who in royalty. One interesting point was on the case for mediatized families and how many of the great and ancient Russian families were not even mentioned but even the smallest German princedom had an entry. This gave the German princes a leverage to marry royals as equal marriage. By leaving out the Russian princes of the same rank as the counterpart German princes, the Gotha placed them at a lower level. Thus, unnequality of marriage that cost quite a few couples their succesion rights. So many of these ancient Houses older than the Romanovs ended up out of the competition to be viewed for a possible replacement of that dynasty.
Yes, a mistake was made in the Alamanach de Gotha printing but the Gotha is not the final determinant of who should reign. By the way, the remaining princely houses of ancient Russia were printed in the 2001 Alamanach de Gotha (yellow).
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