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  #61  
Old 01-13-2006, 07:06 PM
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Grand Duchess pushes Russia to admit mistake

Descendant of last czar pushes Russia to admit mistake
By GRAEME SMITH
Monday, January 9, 2006 Posted at 4:57 AM EST
From Monday's Globe and Mail

Yekaterinburg, Russia On the face of it, Maria Romanova's legal application to Russian prosecutors might seem straightforward.
As the self-described head of the surviving family of Nicholas II, Russia's last czar, Ms. Romanova wants rehabilitation for her ancestors, according to her lawyer. Under Russian law, this would mean a formal admission that Nicholas II was unjustly killed along with his wife, children and attendants after revolution swept away Russia's monarchy.
Boris Yeltsin went far beyond such recognition during his term as Russian president, apologizing for the killings and describing the incident as one of the most shameful chapters of Russian history. The Russian Orthodox Church went even further, canonizing the family as minor saints.
But the country's legal system has never recognized that anything wrong happened on the night of July 16 and 17, 1918, when Bolsheviks lined up the royal family in the basement of a house in Yekaterinburg and shot them to death.
"This is the last step," said German Lukyanov, the family lawyer. "Why must this be done? Russia needs it, to finally close this disgraceful, bloody chapter of Russian history."
Closing the case of Russia's last czar might prove difficult, however. Many details about the incident are passionately disputed, and Ms. Romanova's application last month has shaken the dust off old debates that some Russians would rather leave undisturbed.
"The question of the czars is implied in the question of whether communism was a good idea," said Ivan Plotnikov, 80, a retired colonel and professor of history in Yekaterinburg.
"And this is a question some people still ask themselves."
The emotions run deepest in this industrial city on the eastern edge of Siberia, about 1,600 kilometres east of Moscow.
During interviews, some historians grew red-faced, raised their voices and even foamed at the mouth when arguing about what happened here almost a century ago.
The downfall of the royal Romanov family started in 1917, when discontent with the monarchy broke out into riots on the streets of St. Petersburg. The government resigned and parliament asked the emperor to give up his throne. Nicholas obeyed, and was eventually forced into house arrest in Yekaterinburg.
As civil war raged in the summer of 1918, opponents of the Bolsheviks approached the city and Bolshevik leaders decided to kill the czar to prevent the advancing army from saving him.
But questions about the killings almost outnumber the facts: Did Vladimir Lenin himself give the execution order, as many believe? Were the remains buried in a shallow grave, as some say, or have the real bodies never been discovered?
The absence of any court records or written execution order could make it difficult to apply the Russian law on rehabilitation, some experts say, because the Prosecutor-General may decide there isn't any decision that could be overturned.
The Russian government held a burial ceremony in St. Petersburg in 1998 for remains of the czar, his wife, three of his children and four attendants, after a geologist claimed the discovery of their bodies outside Yekaterinburg.
But the patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church boycotted the event because of doubts about the authenticity of the bones, and those questions grew stronger after DNA analysis by Japanese researchers contradicted the results of several other DNA tests.
Perhaps most troubling for Ms. Romanova's legal process are the questions posed by experts in Yekaterinburg about her credibility. The birth certificate for czar Nicholas that she submitted as part of her application looks as though it could belong to anybody, said Vadim Viner, a businessman from Yekaterinburg who has been researching the death of the Romanovs for 17 years.
"She probably got the certificate from some homeless person whose name was Nicholas," Mr. Viner said, slouching in a badly rumpled three-piece suit in his small, dark office.
Mr. Lukyanov, the lawyer, said every document was obtained through exhaustive research, and added that he hopes to keep the question of rehabilitation separate from the debate over the royal bones.
While no execution order from Moscow is known to exist, Mr. Lukyanov has submitted a copy of Leon Trotsky's memoirs about his role as a leading Bolshevik.
Returning from the front in the civil war, Mr. Trotsky wrote, he asked another Bolshevik leader, Jacob Sverdlov, what had happened to the czar. Mr. Sverdlov replied that the entire family was shot dead, and explained: "Ilyich Lenin thought we shouldn't leave them a living banner in such hard times."
Under the law, Russia's Prosecutor-General has until March 1 to respond to Mr. Lukyanov's request.
Whatever the result, Russians will likely remain fascinated by the mystery.
"Russia is looking for truth not just on this question but on many others," said Veniamin Alekseevm, a history professor at the Russian Academy of Sciences.
"If we understand this event, then we can understand what happened to Russia in the 20th century."
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  #62  
Old 01-14-2006, 01:33 AM
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Maria is my favorite Romanov because she has the courage to defend the right of the Dynasty as an important part of Russian history, while the other Romanovs just hate her for getting the attention. At least she keeps the name on the news.
Anyone knows if her son is going to get married and reproduce soon?
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  #63  
Old 02-04-2006, 09:58 AM
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I don't know when Georg plans on getting married but I am quite sure that when he does it will be to another royal. Surely his mother would'nt approve of anything less than that.
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  #64  
Old 02-04-2006, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth_Leona
Georgi and his mother Maria may put a claim in for the throne of Russia, two slight problems...woman can not inherit the throne of Russia and neither can their decentants (comes from Tsar Paul's hatred of his mother) AND Georgi is technically a Prince of Prussia and NOT a Grand Duke or Tsarvich or whatever he wants to come across to be of Russia. I really can not stand him and his mother (especially his mother!) I find she very pushy, too push, though I do have to say any pictures I have seen of him in recent years I can see that he has improved a lot! compared to the cubby smug looking brat he came across as a child.
That's not true at all. Under the Pauline Laws, women could inherit the throne provided there were no male imperial dynasts left as defined under the statute.

The real problem with Maria is her father's declaration in 1970 that she was the only remaining dynast due to the fact his cousins had not made equal marriages under the Pauline Laws. As Head of the House, Grand Duke Vladimir had the right to interpret the Laws, however, he could not grant equality to his own marriage without also granting equality to his cousins' marriages to Russian noble women.

Leonida was a Bagration princess, but the Royal House of Georgia lost their sovereign status when they were annexed into the Russian Empire. They were inscribed in the Russian Book of Nobility and could not be considered a "reigining, sovereign house". So, Vladimir's marriage was no more equal than his cousins.

Given that point, Maria would not be the current heir because there are other more senior male lines of descent who would take precedence over her and Prince George.
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  #65  
Old 02-06-2006, 01:11 AM
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Most of the European Royal Houses do not recognize Maria as Head of the Imperial House of Romanov and hold the position the dynasty died with the death of Grand Duke Vladimir.

In reality, Georg-Friedrich von Hohenzollern is probably the valid heir to the imperial throne under the strictest interpretation of the Pauline Laws through Vladimir's sister, Grand Duchess Kira, who made an equal marriage to Prince Louis-Ferdinand, and is his grandmother.
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  #66  
Old 02-07-2006, 12:59 AM
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I believe I saw her name on the PDF list of guests at the wedding of Felipe and Letizia, she was the only representative of the Romanovs. Her name also appears in the succesion list (the long list) for the British monarchy. So Maria seems to be very well connected.
If only the other Romanovs decided to imitate her and do something for the restoration of the monarchy, them they could easily over shadow her and her son. But so far she is the public face of the Romanovs, her name is the one that comes up the most as a possible candidate, not to mention the protection given to her family by Yeltsin. Until them, she seems to be the star of the family. The rest of the Romanovs need one good public relations agent, because Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is both agent and client all rolled over in one person.
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  #67  
Old 02-07-2006, 10:44 PM
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Juan Carlos recognizes Maria as a courtesy because her father, Grand Duke Vladimir, settled in Madrid fifty years ago and she is a citizen of Spain.
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  #68  
Old 02-07-2006, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
If only the other Romanovs decided to imitate her and do something for the restoration of the monarchy, them they could easily over shadow her and her son. But so far she is the public face of the Romanovs, her name is the one that comes up the most as a possible candidate, not to mention the protection given to her family by Yeltsin. Until them, she seems to be the star of the family. The rest of the Romanovs need one good public relations agent, because Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna is both agent and client all rolled over in one person.
Maria is the most ambitious, but the rest of the family isn't interested in a restoration of the imperial throne. They know and acknowledge it is impossible to even consider it and work quietly in other ways to help the Russian people.

Yeltsin used Vladimir, Leonida and Maria for political purposes only. He granted no special dispensation to them and the Russian political establishment has no intention of restoring the Tsar as head of state.

Also, Maria is a Grand Duchess in her own head. In Imperial Russia, she would only have been entitled to the rank of Serene Highness with the style of Princess Romanovskaya-Bagration. Her father made an honorable, but unequal marriage, to a noble and royal family of good standing who were subjects of the Tsar. There is no question she is morganatic under the Pauline Laws as are all of the current descendants.
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  #69  
Old 02-08-2006, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
Maria is the most ambitious, but the rest of the family isn't interested in a restoration of the imperial throne. They know and acknowledge it is impossible to even consider it and work quietly in other ways to help the Russian people.

Yeltsin used Vladimir, Leonida and Maria for political purposes only. He granted no special dispensation to them and the Russian political establishment has no intention of restoring the Tsar as head of state.

Also, Maria is a Grand Duchess in her own head. In Imperial Russia, she would only have been entitled to the rank of Serene Highness with the style of Princess Romanovskaya-Bagration. Her father made an honorable, but unequal marriage, to a noble and royal family of good standing who were subjects of the Tsar. There is no question she is morganatic under the Pauline Laws as are all of the current descendants.
Well, for me she get extra points for at least trying to restore Russia's original form of government while the other Romanovs just want-but-not-want the job to be done. Let's imagine for a minute that Puttin wakes up one morning with this idea that the Republic thing has kind of wore off its welcome and it would be a little more stable (not to mention full of comercial posibilities) to restore the Czardom. Let's say he tosses a coin between Maria and her cousin Prince Michael of Kent (the one that looks like Nicholas II). One of them wins. The other Romanovs from Siberia to Patagonia (if there are some over there ) would hit the roof and demand a re-count, demand that the crown is for one of them even if they never ever lifted a finger to attempt a restoration, if they never attempted to become visible, to even support openly pro-monarchy movements. What would happen if after the possibilities are open for a monarchy you have the woman who made that possibility happen measured against the Romanovs who did not show concern about it until then? If I were to advise Maria I'll say 'woman, get a bodyguard pronto!'

In Spain we got Juan Carlos, that is the man who should not have been king. The correct King would have been his cousin, the Duke of Cadiz, thus, his son the so called Duke of Anjou and French pretender. But, Juan Carlos played the game and beat out all others against all odds, legitimate or not so legitimate candidates. Had any other candidate assumed the throne of Spain we would be a republic with a lot of military coups under our belt since 1975. The Duke of Cadiz and his mercurial wife (Franco's spoiled grand daugther) would had been a death sentence to the monarchy.

I see Maria as an attempt to be like Juan Carlos, or at least to have his lucky strike in Russia. She might not be the legitimate candidate, but at least she is the one trying to keep the candidacy open as another alternative to the Republic.
And for that, I'll give her extra points against her cranky cousins.

The main problem with Maria is her son, she is the face of restoration and he seems, like the other Romanovs, just waiting to pounce on her work and take it.
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  #70  
Old 02-08-2006, 05:08 PM
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He doesn't need his mother's approval to marry. As a son of a Prince of Prussia, he only needs Georg-Friedrich's approval to marry as a member of the Hohenzollern Imperial House.
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  #71  
Old 02-08-2006, 05:17 PM
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He is the morganatic grandson of the former Head of the House and cannot hold the style, title or rank of Imperial Highness and Grand Duke of Russia under the Pauline Laws. If Grand Duke Vladimir had changed the House Rules to allow it, that's another matter. He did not.

Only the children and male grandchildren of the Tsar were entitled to hold it, provided they were the issue of an equal marriage. Otherwise, you were denied the right to hold imperial rank, but retained honorable association in the House of Romanov with a lesser style granted at the discretion of the Tsar (i.e. HSH Prince Romanovsky-Bagration).
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  #72  
Old 02-08-2006, 06:59 PM
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I For one feel positive about Russias Future And hope that The Romanovs are restored in my lifetime (although I Know its a far off chance) :)
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  #73  
Old 02-20-2006, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
He doesn't need his mother's approval to marry. As a son of a Prince of Prussia, he only needs Georg-Friedrich's approval to marry as a member of the Hohenzollern Imperial House.
Does he has any current girlfriend-candidate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal Fan
I For one feel positive about Russias Future And hope that The Romanovs are restored in my lifetime (although I Know its a far off chance) :)
Me too, and since anything can happen these days I don't write the Romanovs off yet, not just Maria but her cousins. If they found a way to make peace with each other it would improve their chances as a group rather than as indivuduals. After all, once there is a Czar or Czarina back in town the cousins will be upgraded, last names will be adjusted and a glamorous new era for Russia as a constitutional monarchy will start. And it's good for tourism too.
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  #74  
Old 02-21-2006, 01:05 PM
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Need info on writing to Maria Vladamirovna...

Does anyone know where I can send a letter to Maria Vladamirovna?? Email would be OK too but I would prefer to send a more formal letter. Thanks in advance!
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  #75  
Old 02-22-2006, 01:42 AM
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I think she has her own Russian language website that she has been trying to translate to english. The Alexander Palace Time Machine forum is a good place to locate things like that. I'll pm you the link in a second.
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  #76  
Old 02-24-2006, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
He is the morganatic grandson of the former Head of the House and cannot hold the style, title or rank of Imperial Highness and Grand Duke of Russia under the Pauline Laws. If Grand Duke Vladimir had changed the House Rules to allow it, that's another matter. He did not.

Only the children and male grandchildren of the Tsar were entitled to hold it, provided they were the issue of an equal marriage. Otherwise, you were denied the right to hold imperial rank, but retained honorable association in the House of Romanov with a lesser style granted at the discretion of the Tsar (i.e. HSH Prince Romanovsky-Bagration).
The claim that HIH Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovitch’s marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration-Moukhransky was morganatic is no more than a concoction of Nicholas Romanovich (self-styled “HH Prince of Russia”) and the RFA. HIH Grand Duke George Mikhailovich is every bit subject to the Pauline Laws when he marries, as he is (aside from his mother) the only other member of the Imperial House.

Here is a link to a wonderful document that completely destroys the myth that Vladimir’s marriage to Leonida was morganatic, which would thereby cause the Imperial House to now be extinct: http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russuclw.htm
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  #77  
Old 02-27-2006, 05:48 PM
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The Bagration-Moukhranskys were subjects of Imperial Russia after the annextion of Georgia into the Russian Empire. They were inscribed in the Fifth Book of Nobility and held the same status as the other noble families of Russian Federation, some of whom had reigned in their kingdoms as well.

The assertion of Grand Duke Vladimir that Leonida was of a sovereign, reigning house, as defined in the Imperial Pauline Law, is ridiculous and he knew it. If he was so confident of his ruling, why not formally declare it as Head of the Imperial House? Because doing so would require him to grant equality to his cousins' marriages to other, equally worthy Russian noble families, some of whom had greater status in Imperial Russia and who had male children who would take precedence over Maria in the succession.

Leonida would never have been granted the status of Imperial Highness or Grand Duchess of Russia under the Tsar. The marriage would have been treated as honorable, but morganatic, with no rights of succession to any children born of it.

In reality, Maria's status is the same as everyone else because they are ALL morganatic under the Pauline Law. The most compliant candidate under the Pauline Law would be his great-nephew, HI & RH Georg-Friedrich von Hohenzollern, Prince of Prussia, after the death of Grand Duke Vladimir. His grandmother, the former Grand Duchess Kira, made an equal marriage to Prince Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia that conformed to the Imperial Statute.
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  #78  
Old 02-27-2006, 07:02 PM
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Sooo

Did the Imperial Family used Semi-Salic Law for succession or Male Primogeniture like UK and Denmark?
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  #79  
Old 02-27-2006, 09:42 PM
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Women could inherit the throne in Russia provided there were no eligible male dynasts under the Pauline Statute. In the case of Grand Duke Vladimir, upon his death, there were no eligible dynasts left, male or female, as defined under the Imperial Rules.

The succession to the throne would then pass through the next eligible line, which in this case was female through Vladimir's sister, Grand Duchess Kira, whose children all married unequally with the exception of Georg-Friedrich's father. Since his father's death, Georg-Friedrich has been the Head of the Imperial House of Prussia and is arguably the qualified pretender to the Russian throne as well.
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Old 02-28-2006, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
The succession to the throne would then pass through the next eligible line, which in this case was female through Vladimir's sister, Grand Duchess Kira, whose children all married unequally with the exception of Georg-Friedrich's father.
Not forgetting one of Grand Duchess Kira's daughters, Princess Marie Cecile, who married HH Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg.

In a convoluted turn of events the Duke, after being divorced from Princess Marie Cecile, married Princess Donata (ne Countess zu Castell-Rdenhausen) who is the widow of Prince Louis Ferdinand (jnr), and none other than Prince Georg Friedrich's mother. Family get-togethers must be quite chilly!
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