Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: Current Claimant to the Throne 1: 2003 - Oct 2006

[Layla1971]

Maria's mother was Grand Duchess Leonida Georgievna Kirby née Bagration-Moukhransky, does anyone know who her parents were?
I've been able to find Maria's paternal grandparents. but no luck with her maternal grandparents.
Thanks in advance for any info. :)

[Layla1971]

Originally Posted by branchg

Grand Duke Cyril's marriage to Victoria was deemed unacceptable for a time because the Empress Alexandra was furious at Princess Victoria for divorcing her brother, Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse, although her brother was relieved they could separate after the death of Queen Victoria. It had nothing to do with the Pauline Laws or being cousins. Given the opposition of the Empress, Tsar Nicholas II stripped Cyril of his rank and title and banished him from Russia. Later, he reversed his decision and granted Cyril and Victoria recognition and approved the marriage.

On another side of the argument, Grand Duke Cyril (after Empress Alexandra's anger at Princess Victoria), Alexandra must have blamed the Grand Duke for causing/contributing to her brothers divorce? And that's what motivated the Tsar to exile Grand Duke Cyril to the Far East?

In the Russo-Japanese War of 1904, Grand Duke Cyril (who I think was still in the Russian Navy at the time?) survived an attack on the Russian Fleet, and returned home to Moscow a war hero.

Then the Tsar finally allowed him to leave Russia and he went to Coburg to be with Princess Victoria.

My question is, did the Grand Duke's performance in the war influence the Tsar to allow him out of exile and to see Princess Victoria?:)

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Layla1971

On another side of the argument, Grand Duke Cyril (after Empress Alexandra's anger at Princess Victoria), Alexandra must have blamed the Grand Duke for causing/contributing to her brothers divorce? And that's what motivated the Tsar to exile Grand Duke Cyril to the Far East?

In the Russo-Japanese War of 1904, Grand Duke Cyril (who I think was still in the Russian Navy at the time?) survived an attack on the Russian Fleet, and returned home to Moscow a war hero.

Then the Tsar finally allowed him to leave Russia and he went to Coburg to be with Princess Victoria.

My question is, did the Grand Duke's performance in the war influence the Tsar to allow him out of exile and to see Princess Victoria?:)

From what has been written by historians such as Massie, I think Nicholas II's decision to rescind the banishment and grant recognition to Cyril and Victoria had more to do with the fact that World War I was coming and he wanted them back in Russia. Given the state of the succession at the time, the poor health of the Tsarevitch, and the increasing upheavals among the people, the Tsar realized the throne needed to be secured.

Princess Victoria loved Cyril before her marriage to Grand Duke Ernst, but Queen Victoria disliked the Russian imperial family and made it clear she was opposed to another grandaughter marrying a Russian Grand Duke (Princesses Alexandra and Elizabeth of Hesse both married Tsar Nicholas and Grand Duke Serge with the Queen's deep reluctance). So, she was forced into a marriage with Ernst, rather than with the man she really loved.

[Layla1971]

Originally Posted by branchg

From what has been written by historians such as Massie, I think Nicholas II's decision to rescind the banishment and grant recognition to Cyril and Victoria had more to do with the fact that World War I was coming and he wanted them back in Russia. Given the state of the succession at the time, the poor health of the Tsarevitch, and the increasing upheavals among the people, the Tsar realized the throne needed to be secured.

Princess Victoria loved Cyril before her marriage to Grand Duke Ernst, but Queen Victoria disliked the Russian imperial family and made it clear she was opposed to another grandaughter marrying a Russian Grand Duke (Princesses Alexandra and Elizabeth of Hesse both married Tsar Nicholas and Grand Duke Serge with the Queen's deep reluctance). So, she was forced into a marriage with Ernst, rather than with the man she really loved.

Thanks branchg, your help makes the situation easier to understand.:)

[tiaraprin]

Originally Posted by branchg

Regarding Ernst's marriage to Victoria, they were very unhappy from the start, since Ernst is generally regarded as having been gay and Victoria was basically forced to marry him because her grandmother, Queen Victoria, wanted her to. After the Queen died, the couple went their separate ways and eventually divorced when Grand Duke Cyril asked Victoria to marry him.

They did manage to have one child, a daughter. She was called "Sunny" by her father and the apple of his eye. She was wrangled about in the divorce of her parents and shuffled between the two. She died before the age of 10.

[Layla1971]

Originally Posted by tiaraprin

They did manage to have one child, a daughter. She was called "Sunny" by her father and the apple of his eye. She was wrangled about in the divorce of her parents and shuffled between the two. She died before the age of 10.

Actually they had two children, you were right about a daughter, Elisabeth, she died at the age of eight of typhoid fever.
They also had a stillborn son in 1900.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by lashinka2002

One of Xenia's descendants would currently be the Head of the Romanov Family, but all of her children married morganatically, thus Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna currently holds that position.

Maria is also the child of a morganatic marriage, therefore, she is not a Grand Duchess, but a Princess Romanovsky-Bagration. The Romanov Imperial House is extinct with the death of Maria's father, Grand Duke Vladimir.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by hillary_nugent

Do the existing Russian Royal families get to be recognised by their royal titles? do they get special treatment and stuff?

Strictly as a courtesy, King Juan Carlos grants Maria and her mother, Leonida, some recognition and precedence on occasion because the family has resided in Spain for seventy years. The other royal houses in Europe do not.

None of the current members of the Romanov family are royal. They are all morganatic descendants of imperial dynasts. Their use of the style "Prince Romanov" is meaningless and has no basis in the Pauline Law because they are not entitled to use the style of Highness or title of Prince of Russia as morganauts.

[Idriel]

From the Moscow Times

A Monarchist Solution for Russia

When former Soviet bloc countries shook off the one-party state and rejoined the community of nations, it seemed self-evident that they should all remain republics, even if some had been monarchies before the Nazi or communist takeover. Attempts in Bulgaria to restore a legitimate -- and still living -- sovereign to the throne produced ironic sniggers in civilized quarters.
In Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union, monarchist movements have never been anything but a fringe element, even if it has now been acknowledged that its liberal democracy has failed. Elections for governors have been abolished, and while the president and the State Duma are still voted on, the process increasingly looks like Soviet-era rubber-stamping. Yet, for all the criticism of Vladimir Putin's "vertical of power," there has never been any question whether Russia should remain a republic.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Layla1971

I'm not sure she would be allowed to go to Russia, even for a family occassion.
Does anyone know her travel record to Russia?

Maria, Leonida and her son, George, have been to Russia many times, both privately and as official guests of the Government. She certainly is allowed to visit as a private citizen with the Government's permission.

Given the great chasm in the family, I'm not so sure the current descendants of Grand Duchess Xenia and Grand Duchess Olga are too excited about seeing Maria at the burial of the Dowager Empress Marie. Given the issues of protocol she always seems to raise, I won't be surprised if she is not invited by the family.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Warren

Yes. There are two rival claimants: Grand Duchess Maria of Russia, and Prince Nikolai Romanov.

And both are kidding themselves and not entitled to the styles, rank and titles they claim. They are morganatic under the Pauline Laws and are, at best, a Prince/Princess Romanovsky/Romanovskaya with the style of Serene Highness.

Grand Duke Vladimir knew his declaration in 1970 was weak, which is how the chasm started, and he had no right to elevate his daughter to imperial rank over the other descendants in the male line who also married Russian noble families. That's not the way royal house rules work. If Leonida was now a Grand Duchess and Imperial Highness (which she most certainly would not be in Imperial Russia), then so were the other wives of Russian noble descent.

[BeatrixFan]

According to Count Valdemar of Rosenborg , when Alexander III died, Nicholas was heard to say to his mother , "What do I do now? I don't want to be Tsar" - very telling indeed.

I think that Nicholas took too much advice from Alexandra (and of course Rasputin).

From what I know of Maria Vladimirovna she is all for Russia reinstating the royal family and for her title to be acknowledged by other royals in Europe but what reason, what honest to God reason does she have for wanting to be be Czarina of Russia again?

By addressing her as 'Your Imperial Highness' etc, you're showing Maria a courtesy according to her rank. I suppose that she wants to be Czarina because she has a true Monarchist passion - maybe she believes that a Monarchy is the only thing that can bring Russia together after all those years of Red-Rule. One thing is for sure, Putin is for a Monarchy and so if she wants a chance to sit on that throne - she better get in quick!

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

...


By addressing her as 'Your Imperial Highness' etc, you're showing Maria a courtesy according to her rank. I suppose that she wants to be Czarina because she has a true Monarchist passion - maybe she believes that a Monarchy is the only thing that can bring Russia together after all those years of Red-Rule. One thing is for sure, Putin is for a Monarchy and so if she wants a chance to sit on that throne - she better get in quick!

Erm... Why do you ascribe monarchical feelings to our president?

[BeatrixFan]

President Putin reportedly said that he was in favour of the idea of Monarchy but that it had to be constitutional. I think it was a comment made when Yeltsin was still President and Putin was just another politician. I'll try and find the exact source though.
Yeltsin was a Monarchist though wasn't he?

[Mapple]

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan

President Putin reportedly said that he was in favour of the idea of Monarchy but that it had to be constitutional. I think it was a comment made when Yeltsin was still President and Putin was just another politician. I'll try and find the exact source though.
Yeltsin was a Monarchist though wasn't he?

By God, no! Neither of them has even entertained the idea of restoring monarchy, they have been too busy establishing 'guided democracy' here. :)

Putin really said that he has no quarrel with constitutional monarchy, but it was a mere theoretical question asked by a journalist, IIRC.

[BeatrixFan]

Putin really said that he has no quarrel with constitutional monarchy, but it was a mere theoretical question asked by a journalist, IIRC.

Ah I see. :)

I think Yeltsin got the reputation of being a Monarchist due to his role at the re-burial, but any President would have attended and given the event the same dignity (I would hope!).

[Mapple]

[quote=BeatrixFan][quote]Putin really said that he has no quarrel with constitutional monarchy, but it was a mere theoretical question asked by a journalist, IIRC.

Ah I see. :)

I think Yeltsin got the reputation of being a Monarchist due to his role at the re-burial, but any President would have attended and given the event the same dignity (I would hope!).

Certainly. I think Yeltsin viewed himself as a kind of Tsar, we even had the 'royal family' then! (I'm pro-Yeltsin, BTW) Why would he want to have a second monarch over here?

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Mapple

By God, no! Neither of them has even entertained the idea of restoring monarchy, they have been too busy establishing 'guided democracy' here. :)

Putin really said that he has no quarrel with constitutional monarchy, but it was a mere theoretical question asked by a journalist, IIRC.

There is no chance of a restoration of the imperial throne in Russia at the present time. Putin may have been quoted as saying he had no problem with a constitutional monarchy, but there isn't even a constitutional rule of law yet. It's still an imperial presidency with rule by decree and a powerless Duma.

Russia is a long way from a proper balance of powers and having a Tsar again isn't going to do much for democracy.