DNA and the law


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(introduction by a lawyer who posted it on another board)

....they (Anderson supporters) make stuff up to
support their case, without addressing the facts...

I for one am truly sick and tired of them saying

that this scientific analysis is "faulty" "unreliable"
and
"inadmissable in courts" when it is WITHOUT DOUBT not the case!

In
fact, one of the scientists who testified in this case, Dr. Terry
Melton, who determined by her mtdna research that AA was NOT GD
Anastasia is expressly found to be a reliable and credible witness
here, her work in the AA case is found to be STILL valid and reliable,
and this Court legally finds that her research is STILL reliable,
credible and admissable. I specifically wish to point out the
numerous times where each scientist testified UNDER OATH that they
were unaware of any scientific peer review studies which disagreed
with the accuracy and vailidity of their mtdna analyses and
methodology, as well as the numerous jurisditions which have found
this mtdna reseach admissible in evidence. This decision is from
September 2000 and has NOT been overturned:

PEOPLE v. KLINGER
713 N.Y.S.2d 823
N.Y.Co.Ct., 2000
Sept. 5, 2000
Judge Brown
PEOPLE v. MICHAEL KLINGER and RAYMOND KLINGER QDS:76703137—The
following constitutes the opinion, decision and order of the court.
***
By previous order of the Honorable Paul E. Kowtna, this court
conducted a Frye hearing on June 6, 2000 and June 13, 2000, to
determine the admissibility of mitochondrial DNA evidence at the trial
of the above-captioned Indictment.
At the hearing, the court heard testimony from two witnesses, Bruce
Budowle, Ph.D., a Senior Scientist with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, and Terry Melton, PhD., President of Mitotyping
Technologies, LLC.
The court finds that Dr, Budowle and Dr. Melton were credible
witnesses.
The court makes the following conclusions of law:
The Court of Appeals has held that "[t]he long recognized rule of Frye
v. United States, 293 F. 1013, is that expert testimony based on
scientific principles or procedures is admissible but only after a
principle or procedure has 'gained general acceptance' in its
specified
field". In Frye (supra at 1014) the court stated:
"Just when a scientific principle or discovery crosses the line
between the
experimental and demonstrable stages is difficult to define. Somewhere
in
this twilight zone the evidential force of the principle must be
recognized,
and while courts will go a long way in admitting expert testimony
deduced
from a well-recognized scientific principle or discovery, the thing
from
which the deduction is made must be sufficiently established to have
gained general acceptance in the particular field in which it belongs"
(emphasis supplied)." (People v. Wesley, 83 NY2d 417).
"This Court has noted that the particular procedure need not be
'unanimously indorsed' by the scientific community but must be
'generally acceptable as reliable' (see People v. Middleton, 54 NY2d
42, 49). Thus the issue here concerns the acceptance by the relevant
scientific community of the reliability of DNA evidence." (People v.
Wesley, supra at 423).
"Once Frye has been satisfied, the question is 'whether the accepted
techniques were employed by the experts in this case" (People v.
Wesley, supra, citing People v. Middleton, 54 NY2d at 50). The focus
moves from the general reliability of the procedures followed to
generate the evidence proffered and whether they establish a
foundation for the reception of the evidence at trial. The trial court
determines, as a preliminary matter of law, whether an adequate
foundation for the admissibility of this particular evidence has been
established." (People v. Wesley, supra at 429).
The first witness was Dr. Bruce Budowle. Dr. Budowle has been employed
by the FBI for 17 years and has been a Senior Scientist for the past
one and a half to two years. He has a Ph.D. in genetics and a
Bachelor's Degree in biology, Dr. Budowle is a member of numerous
professional organizations including the American Academy of Forensic
Sciences and the International Society of Forensic Genetics. He has
published approximately 200-250 articles or materials relating to DNA
analysis, nine of those articles regarding mitochondrial DNA
(hereinafter "mtDNA"), The majority of these articles were subject to
peer review. Dr. Budowle has presented his research and findings to
the
International Symposium of Human Identification on nine separate
occasions. He explained that a symposium is a way to bring the
scientific community together so theycan exchange ideas. He also
serves on numerous journal and editorial boards both in this country
and abroad. Dr. Budowle has received numerous honors and awards
including the Forensic Scientist of the Year Award. He teaches a
course on mtDNA typing for the FBI and for Forensic Institute, which
is for national and international students. Dr. Budowle
has been qualified on numerous occasions as an expert witness in
molecular biology, genetics, population genetics, statistics and
forensic science in state, local and federal courts. He stated that he
has testified in more than half of the states in this country. Dr,
Budowle has also been qualified as an expert on mtDNA in New York,
Louisiana, Pennsylvania, Maryland and California.
As early as 1989, Dr. Budowle co-wrote a chapter of a book describing
mtDNA as a possible genetic tool. In October of 1993, he co-wrote one
of the first guidelines for the use of mtDNA sequencing in forensic
science. In 1995, he co-wrote a peer review journal
describing the procedure that was developed at the FBI for the
extraction, amplification and sequencing of mtDNA from human hair
shafts, Also, in 1995, a peer review article was co-written by him on
the validation of the aforesaid procedures for their application to
case work. An article was also co-written by Dr. Budowle, which was
published in 1997, that described a phenomenon observed in mtDNA
called heteroplasmy. Dr. Budowle also co-wrote a peer review article
for publication where a mtDNA study was done with crab
lice. He determined that this study was a valuable way of looking at
the DNA environment to determine whether its analysis produces a
reliable result. In 1999, he co-wrote a peer review journal article
describing some of the population data from a portion of the data
bases that demonstrates, by inference, the rarity of the mtDNA type
among unrelated individuals. Finally, Dr. Budowle is on the DNA
Commission of the International Society for Forensic Genetics. He was
one of 13 members of the DNA Commission who published an
editorial which contained guidelines for typing mtDNA.
***
MtDNA is much heartier than nuclear DNA. For example, old bones and
teeth that have been exposed to the environment may still have
sufficient quantity for mtDNA typing where nuclear DNA typing would
fail to give a result, There are, however, differences between the two
types of DNA. First, in nuclear DNA, you inherit half from your mother
and half from your father. In mtDNA, you inherit all of it from
your mother. Second, instead of being billions of letters long, the
mtDNA strand is 16,569 letters long. Further, mtDNA is circular rather
than linear. Dr. Budowle opined that the circular strands may actually
protect the mtDNA from being degraded.
***
the counting method is used to predict how common a particular
profile is in mtDNA. Next, the technician can go further by
calculating a confidence level based upon a statistical formula
established early in the twentieth century. The lab, in essence, would
calculate a confidence interval around the estimated frequency based
on the size of the database. This formula is based upon bell-shaped
distribution theories that have been in existence since the
mid-eighteenth century. A confidence level, based upon a statistical
analysis, creates an upper bound to the benefit of the accused, and
then provides that they have confidence that the frequency is no
higher than this amount, Dr. Budowle is not aware of any peer review article
that disagrees
with this method of calculation.

MtDNA research began at the FBI in 1992 and testing commenced in 1996.
Numerous procedures and protocols were developed that were subject to
peer review. Moreover, validation studies for mtDNA have been
published and subject to peer review.

Apparently, there have been no peer review articles that disagree with

the FBI validation ...

 
More on the DNA testing done and its realibility:

Dr. Terry Melton

Dr. Terry Melton has been working with mtDNA since 1991. She has a
Ph.D. from Penn State University in genetics. She has performed
hundreds of DNA analyses and thousands of PCR amplifications. She
testified that her lab exclusively performs mtDNA analysis. One
high profile analysis that she was involved with was the claim of Anna
Anderson that she was the remaining living child of the Romanov
family. By the use of mtDNA, it was determined that she was not the
Grand Duchess Anastasia.

The Court cited the AA case here as support for Dr. Melton's
credentials as an expert in mtDNA analysis. Please note that there is
no reference to any question of the accuracy of the results of the
test. In fact, the accuracy of the AA test is overtly IMPLIED because
the Court cites it as part of the basis for believing her expertise in
mtDNA work and IN FACT RELIES ON THIS CASE to demonstrate her
expertise.

In plain English, what this says is that NO SCIENTISTS have published
ANYTHING to date which has questioned the accuracy of her work,
INCLUDING the mtDNA analysis of AA, excluding her as GD Anastasia. I
have seen lots of claims made here of the "innacuracy" of the AA mtDNA
testing, but for some reason, NO ONE can actually
cite any published scientific reference to back up their claims.

Dr. Melton testified that, in her opinion, the underlying principles
of mtDNA, the principles of mtDNA analysis and the statistical methods
as applied to mtDNA are generally accepted as reliable in the
scientific community.

In plain English again, mtDNA analysis, IS regarded as reliable and
accepted by the scientific community.

Here it is, folks, accepted as a matter of law by
the Supreme Court of New York:

The court finds that the credible evidence adduced at the hearing
established that mtDTA analysis and interpretations are generally
accepted as reliable in the scientific community and that the
procedures followed in this case establish a foundation for admission
of such evidence. The evidence has sufficiently established that the
analyses and interpretations of mtDNA has gained general acceptance in
the community of scientists that work in this field. The existence of
contamination and heteroplasmy do not affect the reliability of the
scientific procedure and these issues, which are subj ect to
cross-examination at the time of trial, do not invalidate the
procedures of mtDNA testing.

Although both Dr. Budowle and Dr. Melton testified that mtDNA can not
be the unique identifier that
nuclear DNA can achieve, this conclusion,
however, does not invalidate the
accuracy of the procedure and whether
it is acceptable in the relevant
scientific community.

This court finds that many of the procedures used in analyzing mtDNA
are the same as those used in analyzing nuclear DNA. Further, the
statistical methods used by the technician in creating the upper
bounds of the confidence interval are basic statistical methods that
have been found generally accepted in the relevant scientific
community.

Moreover, mtDNA procedures have been subject to peer review and Dr.
Budowle testified that he knew of no peer review articles that state
that the aforesaid process and statistical methods were not
scientifically reliable. In addition, Dr. Melton testified that the
whole process has been subject to peer review and that she is unaware
of any peer review articles in disagreement with the methods used by
her lab with respect to analysis, interpretation and use of the
statistical formulas.

Once again, Dr. Melton said that NO SCIENTIST has ever questioned in
writing the accuracy of her results or methods in any of her work,
which expressly includes her work EXCLUDING AA as Anastasia. So if the
AA mtDNA analysis is so flawed and unreliable, WHY havent any
scientists stated so in writing??

"She (Dr. Melton) testified that her lab exclusively performs mtDNA
analysis. One high profile analysis that she was involved with was the
claim of Anna Anderson that she was the remaining living child of the
Romanov family. By the use of mtDNA, it was determined that she was
NOT (my emphasis here) the Grand Duchess Anastasia. ...

Dr. Melton testified that she is unaware of any peer review articles
in disagreement with the method used by her lab with respect to the
analysis and interpretation of mtDNA. She testified that there is no
process for mtDNA analysis that is not generally accepted as a valid
scientific procedure. The whole process has been subject to peer
review. Further, the statistical formula for mtDNA is generally
accepted by the scientific community. Dr. Melton testified that there
were no peer review articles stating that this statistical formula or
method was not a reliable interpretation of the mtDNA database. She
also testified that the counting method, the confidence interval
approach and the likelihood calculation are each equally valid."

While mtDNA analysis can not necessarily prove who a single individual
may be, (it cannot go beyond 99.9%, which is the probability AA is FS)
it CAN prove who they can NOT be......reliably so by
excluding them from the possibility of blood relation in the maternal
line. There is NO QUESTION that Anna Anderson was NOT Grand
Duchess Anastasia Nicholaiovna because her mtDNA was EXCLUDED from
relationship thru the maternal line. The fundemantal issue here
remains that mtDNA analysis has proved reliably that AA could not have
been GD Anastasia.
 
Another example:

Sixth Circuit Court Appellate Decision
A Mitotyping case, U.S. v. Beverly, was recently reviewed by the Sixth Circuit, and the science of mitochondrial DNA testing was upheld. This is one of the first federal appellate decisions concerning mitochondrial DNA.
 
My question is: Would the court accept as proof DNA from a sample "said to be from Anna Anderson?"
 
In ANY case, someone could hypothetically claim that their incriminating sample was tampered with, rigged, etc. but proving it would be something else. The intestine at the hospital was stored in two different places, under her name. Therefore, we have no reason to believe it's not hers unless someone can prove it's not. Therefore, in a court case, the burden of proof would be on those who doubt the sample.
 
In ANY case, someone could hypothetically claim that their incriminating sample was tampered with, rigged, etc. but proving it would be something else. The intestine at the hospital was stored in two different places, under her name.

And still not found for almost three months.

Therefore, we have no reason to believe it's not hers unless someone can prove it's not. Therefore, in a court case, the burden of proof would be on those who doubt the sample.

Or on those who say it's the real thing.
 
Who is the little girl in the picture, the Grand Duchess or Franziska? Thank you for posting this information. :flowers:


(introduction by a lawyer who posted it on another board)

MtDNA research began at the FBI in 1992 and testing commenced in 1996.
Numerous procedures and protocols were developed that were subject to
peer review. Moreover, validation studies for mtDNA have been
published and subject to peer review.

Apparently, there have been no peer review articles that disagree with
the FBI validation ...
 
And still not found for almost three months.

The reason the hospital didn't find it right away was because the person originally asked for the sample under "Anna Anderson" but the sample was filed under the name "Anastasia Manahan"
(source: Klier and Mingay, "Quest for Anastasia")
 
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The reason the hospital didn't find it right away was because the person originally asked for the sample under "Anna Anderson" but the sample was filed under the name "Anastasia Manahan"
(source: Klier and Mingay, "Quest for Anastasia")

And if you read your source, you will see that they looked under both Anderson and Manahan.
 
'
And if you read your source, you will see that they looked under both Anderson and Manahan.

Yes that is in my source. But they looked under Mrs. JACK Manahan, not Anastasia. His real name is not Jack but John, so there was officially no "Mrs. Jack Manahan." When they finally searched for ANASTASIA MANAHAN, the samples were there, where they had been all along.


And no, it may not have come up by last name. Example, just recently I was doing a search for my niece, who's in college out of town, on some of the networking sites. I entered her name and it never came up, but my daughter told me she was going by the name "Sadie" instead of her given name "Sarah" on one, and the other was under her boyfriend's name. So it usually does have to be an exact match, especially if using computer searches. It's not going to say 'no we don't have Sarah ---- but we have a Sadie ----' it just said 'no matching results, sorry we can't find Sarah --- )

Also note that the AA intestines and other samples at Martha Jefferson Hospital are stored by number, with a corresponding name in another file, making it even far less likely any switcher could have had access to all those records and snuck in and swapped them out- also, they were stored in two different places, and the likelihood of BOTH being even 'accidently' misplaced with one matching the FS profile is mathmatically impossible.

Much of the unfounded speculation on switches and/or incompetance has been quite insulting to the staff of Martha Jefferson Hospital, just as it has been to the scientists over alleging 'shady' results.

Read Massie's "Final Chapter" for much more on the testing and legal issues over the intestines. It's about half the book, too much to post here, but here's the explanation of the person in charge over the handling of the samples:

This is the explaination of Penny Jenkins, who was responsible for Martha Jefferson Hospital's medical records, including blood and tissue samples. When asked of the possibility of 'substitution' of the tissue at the hospital, here was her reply:

"We have two separate backups. In 1979 when Dr. Shrum did surgery on Mrs. Manahan, we took slides of the tissue, in addition to preserving in paraffin the larger blocks of the excised tissue. Taking slides when doing surgery is routine, you take it, you look at it, and say, there is cancer, or it's not cancer, or it's an infection or whatever. We preserve these slides in one place and the paraffin wax in a totally different place."Furthermore, when we moved the tissue from storage back to the hospital in early 1993, Dr, Thomas Dudley, the assistant pathologist, cut some new slides from one of the blocks. We compared these new slides cut in 1993 with those slides cut in 1979 and they were identical. If someone had swapped them in storage during the last couple of years, they would not have matched. And the chance that anybody was able to get to both locations and switch both slides without access to specimen numbers is impossible."
(source: Massie, "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter")
 
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My question is: Would the court accept as proof DNA from a sample "said to be from Anna Anderson?"

Not if that was the whole story, no. But as you're very well aware, it's nowhere near the whole story.
 
(introduction by a lawyer who posted it on another board)

....they (Anderson supporters) make stuff up to
support their case, without addressing the facts...

I for one am truly sick and tired of them saying

that this scientific analysis is "faulty" "unreliable"
and
"inadmissable in courts" when it is WITHOUT DOUBT not the case! .....
[/B]


It is not acceptable in court if the chain of custody was broken, which I believe it might have been.

In a real court of law here in the USA, if it is proven that the chain of custody can not be proven then everything which surrounds the samples of the intestine will not be admitted into evidence during the case. So, it would not matter if the test were correct or incorrect, because the judge wouldn't allow it to go into the court room. If a lawyer can show that the chain of custody was not broken, the judge will allow the DNA/mtDNA. If, as you say, the DNA/mtDNA would be admitted as evidence then the information surrounding the intestine sample can be admitted, then a lawyer would have to convince 12 jury members, and, one of them might be me, after I've heard the lawyer who has convince me that the chain of custody was broken. So, now, it's your turn to give me proof that the chain of custody was never broken because such a feat was impossible from 1979 to 1991. And that evidence would be....?


AGRBear
 
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Peter Kurth supplied a hair sample. They used that, too.
 
While I can see that this might be a major consideration if you're dealing with one sample, in this case you're dealing with two of them. They came from quite different sources, and they were analysed in different labs. They gave the same result.

If you're going to invoke the chain-of-custody test here, you've got the three alternatives of collusion by the scientists, tampering with two different samples by some third party, or massive coincidence. If a court of law doesn't take that into account, something is badly wrong with the legal process. The issue then becomes that of whether the three above alternatives are really more likely than bona fide results.
 
So, now, it's your turn to give me proof that the chain of custody was never broken because such a feat was impossible from 1979 to 1991. And that evidence would be....?


AGRBear

No, bear, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it was broken. It was in two different places, both with her name and a corresponding number in records. If either had been tampered with or misplaced, they wouldn't have matched. The odds that both would be accidently transposed, and with another piece of identical intestine, out of the many yards in each person, must be mathmatically impossible. Since it was carefully stored and labeled, and both halves matched, there is no evidence of any problems. If you have some by all means tell us! Also please tell us why would you even bother, if you don't believe in AA?

Another thing to consider is that during those years it was stored, no one ever heard of DNA tests so why would they switch them just in case some were invented? This is no journey, bear, it's a fantasy.
 
While I can see that this might be a major consideration if you're dealing with one sample, in this case you're dealing with two of them. They came from quite different sources, and they were analysed in different labs. They gave the same result.

If you're going to invoke the chain-of-custody test here, you've got the three alternatives of collusion by the scientists, tampering with two different samples by some third party, or massive coincidence. If a court of law doesn't take that into account, something is badly wrong with the legal process. The issue then becomes that of whether the three above alternatives are really more likely than bona fide results.

First, I need to know what you're referring to: "you're dealing with two of them". Two of what?

I'm talking about the chain of custody for the sample of the intestines which was removed from AA in 1979 to 1991 which is the time period before the court ruled on the sample being tested by Gill and King.

AGRBear
 
No, bear, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it was broken. It was in two different places, both with her name and a corresponding number in records. If either had been tampered with or misplaced, they wouldn't have matched. The odds that both would be accidently transposed, and with another piece of identical intestine, out of the many yards in each person, must be mathmatically impossible. Since it was carefully stored and labeled, and both halves matched, there is no evidence of any problems. If you have some by all means tell us! Also please tell us why would you even bother, if you don't believe in AA?

Another thing to consider is that during those years it was stored, no one ever heard of DNA tests so why would they switch them just in case some were invented? This is no journey, bear, it's a fantasy.

If I am sitting on the jury, I don't have to prove anything. All I can do is make a decision on is what is presented to me in court.

The one lawyer has convinced me that the chain of custody can not be proven from 1979 to 1991. During those years the doctor in charge had died. The hospital had changed into a teaching hospital and renovations had occurred twice, the second was occurring when the requests in 1991 were being made and the sample could not be found. Then up pops not just one sample but two.... Where did the second come from? Who divided the original sample and when? This was a teaching hosptial. How many students touched these samples between 1979 and 1991? Where were they found?

The lawyer, whom AWF would have hired, is, now, telling me what he/she believes the chain of custody was not broken. Can your lawyer explain to me why there were two samples made out of the one? Who did it? Where was the samples stored? Was there security to protect these samples? From what the first attorney said, the samples weren't secure until there was sudden interest in the samples in 1991 and the court became involved.

Why do I ask these questions when I don't believe AA was GD Anastasia? Because this interests me and I'd like to know the facts without people telling me to stop asking questions when no one cares. People do care.

When did DNA first come to attention of the public which suddenly caused more than one person to contact the hospital to inquire about AA's intestine sample in 1991?

AGRBear
 
This is what WAF's lawyer might have said.

... [ in part] ....

Read Massie's "Final Chapter" for much more on the testing and legal issues over the intestines. It's about half the book, too much to post here, but here's the explanation of the person in charge over the handling of the samples:

This is the explaination of Penny Jenkins, who was responsible for Martha Jefferson Hospital's medical records, including blood and tissue samples. When asked of the possibility of 'substitution' of the tissue at the hospital, here was her reply:

"We have two separate backups. In 1979 when Dr. Shrum did surgery on Mrs. Manahan, we took slides of the tissue, in addition to preserving in paraffin the larger blocks of the excised tissue. Taking slides when doing surgery is routine, you take it, you look at it, and say, there is cancer, or it's not cancer, or it's an infection or whatever. We preserve these slides in one place and the paraffin wax in a totally different place."Furthermore, when we moved the tissue from storage back to the hospital in early 1993, Dr, Thomas Dudley, the assistant pathologist, cut some new slides from one of the blocks. We compared these new slides cut in 1993 with those slides cut in 1979 and they were identical. If someone had swapped them in storage during the last couple of years, they would not have matched. And the chance that anybody was able to get to both locations and switch both slides without access to specimen numbers is impossible."
(source: Massie, "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter")



In cross examination, I believe the other lawyer would have asked:

"Why did Dr.Dudley touch these slides?"

"Who else touched these slides from 1979 to 1993?"

AGRBear

PS

I stand corrected, the year was 1993 not 1991. So my posts should read 1979 to 1993. My apologies. 1991 was then the bones in the mass grave was found.
 
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First, I need to know what you're referring to: "you're dealing with two of them". Two of what?

Two samples. The intestine and the hair.

I'm talking about the chain of custody for the sample of the intestines which was removed from AA in 1979 to 1991 which is the time period before the court ruled on the sample being tested by Gill and King.

AGRBear

The intestine sample was stored at the hospital for years. Presumably any sample stored at a hospital could be tampered with during that time since it wouldn't have been guarded by lawyers and their security experts for that entire time.

However, chains of custody don't exist in isolation. The point at issue is whether the sample is what it's claimed to be, not whether someone had their eyes on it for the entire time span of its existence, since it has a finite chance of being genuine even if it wasn't being watched continuously. Anyone casting doubt on the identity of the intestine sample is going to have to explain why, if the sample had been switched, the new sample gave an mtDNA match with the hair sample that didn't go near the hospital between its discovery and its analysis, which took place in a different lab from the one where the intestine sample was analysed.
 
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Well thanks to bear I have now wasted my afternoon where I was supposed to be doing more important things rereading Massie's book. If anyone is really interested, it contains many chapters and lengthy amounts of information on the intestine and the battle for it. The intestine was never moved until Gill came for it. Both Penny Jenkins of the hospital and Gill told how the intestine samples were stored in two differenet places with code numbers corresponding to the name. Later, Schweitzer, declaring that there was no way AA wasn't AN and no way she was FS, stated emphatically that there had to have bene 'manipulation and substitution.' He alleged that Ms. Jenkins, who controlled the samples, may have left papers lying on her desk when someone from the other camp was talking to her. Honestly, this is just grasping at straws. Even in the early 90's all that was most likely on computers. Another factor against a switch is that with so many people and groups trying to get control of the sample, some who believed AA and some who didn't, so many lawyers and special interests, it's very unlikely anyone would have switched it even if they could have. No one yet knew what the results would be, and really it didn't seem like anyone was too sure and from the time it was announced AN's skeleton was not in the grave. So why would anyone switch if they didn't know how the results would come out? I'm sure both sides really wanted to find out for sure.

Of course IMO the biggest case against any switch is, what would it have been switched with? Go find a member of the FS family, cut him open, find just exactly the same identical part of intestine AA had removed among many long yards, then sew him back up, and then go break into the lab, hack the hospital computers, get the numbers, change them to what you swapped with, then run? Even James Bond couldn't pull that off!

The entire idea of a switch is only a desperate, unrealistic grab by AA supporters who don't want to give up (and no, sorry, I don't believe anyone who doesn't believe she was AN but wonders if she was FS would care about this- why in the world would anyone swap it with a member of the FS family (kidnap him cut him open etc) if she weren't AN but some mysterious anonymous long lost FS cousin?)

It's time to GET REAL! NOW I've got more important things to do!

If anyone is that interested, please do read the later chapters of Massie's "Romanovs the Final Chapter" the whole intestine story is in there, dozens of pages long and I can't type them all.
 
... [in part]...The intestine was never moved until Gill came for it. Both Penny Jenkins of the hospital and Gill told how the intestine samples were stored in two differenet places with code numbers corresponding to the name. ....

You are telling me that the original sample was NEVER moved. Are you talking about after it was moved from the lab after it was concluded it wasn't cancerous? Are you talking about when it was moved to be stored? Where were they stored? In the basement? The hospital turned into a teaching hospital and I'm sure things were moved and probably reorganized. Did these samples get moved, again, then? Did they go to storage outside the hospital or was everything still stored in the hospital? The hospital was in the middle of being renovated again in 1993. We're told that the "original" sample was then touched, sliced according to AWF:

>>....when we moved the tissue from storage back to the hospital in early 1993, Dr, Thomas Dudley, the assistant pathologist, cut some new slides from one of the blocks. We compared these new slides cut in 1993 with those slides cut in 1979 and they were identical.<<

It is unclear to me how Dr. Thomas Dudley fits into all of this. I don't know who "we" is. He was the "assistant pathologist" to whom? The hospital's chief of pathology or Dr. Gill's.

If he was part of the court order and the samples taken for testing in Dr. Gill's lab and in Dr. King's lab at UC, then this is a separate issue. What I'm trying to understand as a jurist listening to two excellent team of lawyers about chain of custody and that is the only subject at this point. I assume once the court got involved, the chain of custody can be proven due to official seals demanded in this kind of case.

Team "A", who presented their case first, has convinced me that the chain of custody was broken. They's done a darn good job. Now, I'm listening to 'team "B"", whom AWF friends have hired, who's giving me information/evidence/etc. to convince me that the chain of custody was not broken and that the sample of AA's was never switched/contaminated or whatever means someone would have taken to change the results BEFORE the scientists became invovled.

Let me rephrase: Between 1979 and 1993, before Dr. Dudley and others became involved, was the chain of custody broken?

This is fact #1:
>> Both Penny Jenkins of the hospital and Gill told how the intestine samples were stored in two differenet places with code numbers corresponding to the name.<<

I assume we're just talking about the "slide" and the original "5 inches" saved in paraffin as being the the "two samples" up to 1993.

The hair is a different issue.

AGRBear
 
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Bear the entire story is written in great detail in several chapters of Massie's book. Please read it for all your answers. There's nothing else I can say, if you won't believe Massie, hospital staff and scientists, you'll never believe me (and I don't think you want to)
 
Bear the entire story is written in great detail in several chapters of Massie's book. Please read it for all your answers. There's nothing else I can say, if you won't believe Massie, hospital staff and scientists, you'll never believe me (and I don't think you want to)

This has nothing whats-so-ever to do with believing or disbelieving anyone on the hosptial staff. This is merely asking for information/evidence/etc.. I don't understand why you keep thinking I'm calling anyone on the staff as being guilty of something. A sample of intestines from AA wasn't important once the doctor said it wasn't cancerous. Atleast, not until 1993. Actually we'll have to move the date back to 1992. This is the timeline I've established first on AP then, again, over on my forum RomanovsRussia. All of this has to do with just the CHAIN OF CUSTODY:

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[quote author=1 post_id=37 date=1149269435]Let's explore the timeline between the surgery of AA in Aug of 1979 to the delivery of the intestine sample to Dr. Gill on 29 June 1994.


20 Aug 1979 - AA was rushed to Martha Jefferson Hospital where Dr. Richard Shrum operated on her small intestine obstruction which prove to have turned gangrene. Massie tells us the details on p. 194-5 THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER:

>>The procedure of sending the tissue to the pathology lab was sent 5 inches of intestines. This tissue was divided into five one-inch segments which were bathed in a issue preservative called formalin, sealed inside a block of paraffin wax one inch square and half an inch deep, and placed in a small blue and white box on a shelf filled with other similar boxes containing tissue specimens.<<

12 Feb 1984 - Anna Anderson Manahan died. Her body was cremated the same day.

July 1992 - Dr. William Maples stated that he believed Anastasia was the missing Grand Duchess and not Maria whom the Russians claimed was missing

22 Sept 1992 Syd Mandelaum writes to several major laboratories looking for genetic samples of AA's to test at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory or at Harvard Medical School because he was writing a book on DNA and wanted to add it's usage to forenic in regards to AA. The one letter went to Martha Jefferson Hospital where AA had surgery.

p. 195 Massie tells us the answer Mandelaum receive to his inquiry:

>>...Martha Jefferson Hospital, replied to Mandelbaun that "we have nothing here that could be useful to you."

Klier and Mingay give us more information on this request p. 203
>>...At the time the hospital was in a chaotic administrative state due to a major refurbishment, and although officals conducted a cursory search of their files, they did not find any recoreds under either of those names. Hospital officals claim they did not intentionally mislead Mandelbaum. Indeed there was no tissue sample stored in the hospital under either name proposed by Mandelbaum.<< The names he had given were Anna Anderson or Mrs. Jack Manahan.

22 Nov 1992 Mary DeWitt, p. 196, >>a student of forensic pathology of the University of Texas<< asked the hospiital for some tissue because she'd like to study it for a paper. They reply from Penny Jenkins was: >>"No, I can't help you."<< Mary DeWitt did not give up. She contacted Lovell asking for his help. Lovell received a letter from John Manahan's cousin Fred Manahan who granted Lovell authority to dispose of the tissue.

Dec 1992, two days after Mary DeWitt's first letter - Dr. Willi Korte conatacted Jenkins. Her story was different to Korte. She told him that they did have compartitive samples of AA.
p. 206 of Kleir and Mingay:
>>Korte's...phone calls galvanized the hospital's acting director of medical records, Penny Jenkins, to take a more detailed look at the hospital's patient database. She made a through search of the viles and the pathology departemtn's vaults and found that, indeed, a tissue sample from Anderson was held there, albeit under the name of Anatasia Manahan.<< This was found Dec 1992 one month after his first phone call.

Dec. 1992 - Thomas Kline with the law firm Andrews and Kurth contacted Jenkins. Jenkins told him they had samples.

Spring 1993 Mary DeWitt's lawyer contacted Martha Jefferson Hospital, again....

The agreement between DeWitt and Lovel disintergrated and Lovell refused to be part of DeWitt's research. Evidently DeWitt's husband was an investigator but there is no mention if he had been hired by anyone or if he was acting on his own or if she was just doing this on her own.

Jan 1993 - Thomas Kline contacted Fred Manahan who referred him to Lovell.

16 April 1993- Kline wrote to Lovell formally asking for help in obtaining access to AA's tissue for DNA testing to be done by the Forensic Insitute in Munich.

18 March 1993 -Kline wrote Lovell again and explained what he thought of Korte and suggested Dr. Mary-Claire King [UC Berkeley] if he did not wish to use Munich with whom Dr. Gill was a part.

date? Lovel contacted Richard Schweitzer for advice.

Meanwhile, Penny Jenkins who had been contacted by these people and attorneys, started to ask the hospital attorneys what needed to done. The hospital attorneys dealt with Richard Schwitzer who is a lawyer and use to post here on this forum.

[continued]

For the rest see my forum.

AGRBear
 
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This has nothing whats-so-ever to do with believing or disbelieving anyone on the hosptial staff. This is merely asking for information/evidence/etc.. I don't understand why you keep thinking I'm calling anyone on the staff as being guilty of something.

Come on, bear, you're obviously thinking something happened and somebody is guilty of something or extremely inept, or you wouldnt keep this up. They have given you the 'information' and you either refuse to accept it or read your own what ifs into it. You will not just believe that nothing happened and the sample really was AA's and she did not match AN but did match FS.

A sample of intestines from AA wasn't important once the doctor said it wasn't cancerous. At least, not until 1993.
In Massie's book, I don't have time to find the page now but I read it yesterday, they said they kept every sample regardless of the condition or sickness because in case the same thing happened again it would help with treatment.
 
I assume we're just talking about the "slide" and the original "5 inches" saved in paraffin as being the the "two samples" up to 1993.

The hair is a different issue.

AGRBear

No it isn't. The results of the hair sample confirm the results of the intestine sample unless you want to invoke a massive coincidence or a widespread conspiracy. Why do you think they used two independent samples?
 
Two samples. The intestine and the hair.



The intestine sample was stored at the hospital for years. Presumably any sample stored at a hospital could be tampered with during that time since it wouldn't have been guarded by lawyers and their security experts for that entire time.

... [in part]....

The first point I'm trying to discuss is the "intestine sample". And, you do agree that "...any sample stores at a hospital could be tampered with during that time...."

Why? As you said, "... since it wouldn't have been guarded by lawyers and their security".

I agree.

AGRBear
 
...[in part]...

In Massie's book, I don't have time to find the page now but I read it yesterday, they said they kept every sample regardless of the condition or sickness because in case the same thing happened again it would help with treatment.

Here is what Kleir and Mingay said in THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA p. 205:

>>In common with other US institutions, the hospitals routinely keeps pathology samples from patients to use for comparative study and in case of future lawsuits over medical malpractice. Five one-inch biopies of Anna's tissue were preserved by the pathologist and stored for their hospital records and research.<<

This line leaps out at me and they are:
>>"tissue were preserved..for their hospital...research.<<

Since Martha Jefferson Hospitial was a teaching facility, was AA's biopies ever used for that purpose by any teacher or student for research?

AGRBear
 
This has nothing whats-so-ever to do with believing or disbelieving anyone on the hosptial staff. This is merely asking for information/evidence/etc.. I don't understand why you keep thinking I'm calling anyone on the staff as being guilty of something. A sample of intestines from AA wasn't important once the doctor said it wasn't cancerous. Atleast, not until 1993. Actually we'll have to move the date back to 1992. This is the timeline I've established first on AP then, again, over on my forum RomanovsRussia. All of this has to do with just the CHAIN OF CUSTODY:

But what's so special about the chain of custody if not to confirm that the sample is genuine? You're talking as though the chain of custody itself is the whole point of the exercise. It isn't. It's just one of the ways in which the identity of the sample can be confirmed.
 
The first point I'm trying to discuss is the "intestine sample". And, you do agree that "...any sample stores at a hospital could be tampered with during that time...."

Why? As you said, "... since it wouldn't have been guarded by lawyers and their security".

I agree.

AGRBear

Which is why the researchers were checking that sample against an independent one. The hair sample. The one you're claiming isn't relevant.
 
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