Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Yes, this is from False Anastasia, page 92 - 97. Consider the source. It is also mentioned in Peter Kurth. "I came here so hoping to find my Grand Duchess," said Mordvinov, "and what did I find?" He did not answer the question.
As for recognizing things, here is a snippet from Peter Kurth:
Another time she showed him (Gleb Botkin) a paper knife that had belonged to his father; Tatiana Botkin had given it to her in 1926 because it bore the crest of Empress Alexandra and had been presented to Dr. Botkin personally by the Empress.
"Have you ever seen this paper knife before?" AA asked innocently.
Gleb answered that it meant nothing to him, and AA squealed in delight: "Oh no!...If you are Gleb Botkin you must know where you have seen this paper knife. Otherwise I shall send you to Gilliard for identification."
(The knife was always lying on Dr. Botkin's desk, and Gleb saw it every day in the course of several years. Maybe he was a Polish factory worker after all.)

--
From Peter Kurth:
When Colonel Mordvinov, the former aide-de-camp to the Tsar, declares that 'the unknown Woman of Berlin' is not Anastasia, no one asks him when he last saw Anastasia or what reasons he might have had for refusing to acknowledge her. (It is known that Mordvinov abandoned the Tsar on the very day of his abdication.)

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Yes, this is from False Anastasia, page 92 - 97. Consider the source. It is also mentioned in Peter Kurth. "I came here so hoping to find my Grand Duchess," said Mordvinov, "and what did I find?" He did not answer the question.

I do consider the source that Mr. Kurth would be less likely to use emphasize information which cast a negative light on Anderson.

As for recognizing things, here is a snippet from Peter Kurth:
Another time she showed him (Gleb Botkin) a paper knife that had belonged to his father; Tatiana Botkin had given it to her in 1926 because it bore the crest of Empress Alexandra and had been presented to Dr. Botkin personally by the Empress.
"Have you ever seen this paper knife before?" AA asked innocently.
Gleb answered that it meant nothing to him, and AA squealed in delight: "Oh no!...If you are Gleb Botkin you must know where you have seen this paper knife. Otherwise I shall send you to Gilliard for identification."
(The knife was always lying on Dr. Botkin's desk, and Gleb saw it every day in the course of several years. Maybe he was a Polish factory worker after all.)

Or consider that Gleb is the one who put her up to it to impress people?

We already know that the DNA did not match. But there are many things that are not cleared up.

So you are indeed saying that this silly holder story holds just as much weight to you as the DNA in the form of evidence?

 

[ChatNoir]

No, I am just trying to find out how she knew about it.

And while we're at it: Who told her about the Tsarina writing with her diamond ring the year and initials on a window pane at Alexandria when they visited? I have never seen that in any book. And who told her about the swastika on the car, a detail neither Gilliard nor Volkov remembered?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Or consider that Gleb is the one who put her up to it to impress people?

Sigh, the more I read of the Botkins 'endorsements' the harder and harder it gets to believe they were innocently fooled. To say they were would mean that AA was incredibly smart and cunning on her own which I doubt. It would also mean that other people were behind the scenes giving her stuff to trick the Botkins, and there couldn't have been that many for that long. This story reeks of feeding, look at it, Tatiana B. gave her the knife! It's obvious she told her the story of it, whether or not Gleb really didn't remember it doesn't matter (but it probably was a setup to 'amaze' people with 'memories') Gleb was a very creative writer.

I also believe the 'funny animals' 'memory' was a setup. She was very close to Tatiana B. for over a year before she took up with Gleb but I am not naive enough to believe that he had no contact with his sister on the matter of AA during that time.

 

[ChatNoir]

Sigh, the more I read of the Botkins 'endorsements' the harder and harder it gets to believe they were innocently fooled. To say they were would mean that AA was incredibly smart and cunning on her own which I doubt. It would also mean that other people were behind the scenes giving her stuff to trick the Botkins, and there couldn't have been that many for that long. This story reeks of feeding, look at it, Tatiana B. gave her the knife! It's obvious she told her the story of it, whether or not Gleb really didn't remember it doesn't matter (but it probably was a setup to 'amaze' people with 'memories') Gleb was a very creative writer.

So it doesn't matter whether Gleb remembered it or not. But it matters a whole lot when AA seemingly forgot little details. Double standard, anyone?

I also believe the 'funny animals' 'memory' was a setup. She was very close to Tatiana B. for over a year before she took up with Gleb but I am not naive enough to believe that he had no contact with his sister on the matter of AA during that time.

That's what Gleb said, too. Tatiana told her. But the Leuchenbergs denied it, nobody knew anything about the animals but AA. Gleb mixed them all up, and she picked out the old ones that he made in Russia, "she seemed disturbed at seeing them, while she laughed at the others."

 

[Anna was Franziska]

So it doesn't matter whether Gleb remembered it or not. But it matters a whole lot when AA seemingly forgot little details. Double standard, anyone?

What I mean is, since his sister was there, she could have been the one who told/set it up, so it doesn't matter if it was one or both Botkin kids (but I think it was both)

That's what Gleb said, too. Tatiana told her. But the Leuchenbergs denied it, nobody knew anything about the animals but AA. Gleb mixed them all up, and she picked out the old ones that he made in Russia, "she seemed disturbed at seeing them, while she laughed at the others."

Were they watching and listening every second, and would they have ratted her out anyway? This is very weak. Something fishy was going on there, remember the Leuchenberg's son was convinced AA was an imposter. As for the pre/post war ones, I've heard they were dated on the picture. Even if they weren't, she was likely carefully coached and studied them. You see there really is no mystery here except who is guilty of helping her. As soon as the DNA came out all the little anecdotes were rendered useless.

 

[ChatNoir]

Amazing how much speculation and accusations you allow when it comes to AA and her story, but none is allowed when it comes to the DNA and its source.
As for dating his drawings, yes, I have seen at least one with a date, but several without.
And I still have no answer to my previous questions.
One more for good measure:
How did she know that Anastasia used to wear a necklace of crackenel around her neck and eat some when she wanted it?
And who told her about the names of the regiments that her sisters commanded?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat, you still don't get it. The DNA and the stories of 'memories' are NOT on equal ground. The DNA beats everything. I have already posted in this thread a couple days ago the reasons the intestines were not switched at the hospital, and the reasons the tests couldn't be wrong (because if any one was wrong they all wouldn't match up and all making the same random error is impossible) This leaves us with only two possible conspiracy theories- one that it was switched after it left the hospital, the other that all the labs were paid off to fake the results. This leaves very, very harsh accusations against the scientists and labs, (as well as the Queen or perpetually unnamed rich bogeyman) and if you cannot prove it, then the DNA stands.

 

[ChatNoir]

Then maybe you could clear up all of AA's memory of her former life, physical likeness and recognition by others using facts, instead of accusations, assumptions and homemade theories. It would be interesting to see what you can come up with.
It would also be interesting to know how Franzisca learnt to play the piano, draw and paint, embroider and play tennis.

 

[Menarue]

Someone taught her Chat, someone taught her......

 

[ChatNoir]

Someone taught her Chat, someone taught her......

The problem with that is, that all you people on this board have access to many more books and more information than AA ever had. The internet is at your feet, and still you cannot get your stories straight. How do you expect a woman who spent most of her time after her arrival in Berlin in an asylum and hospitals, sometimes near death, without access to books and people who could have given her at least some information, to be as informed from the outside as you want her to be? And how was she to retain all this information after it was given to her when her memory was so bad that at one time she could not count past ten?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

It would also be interesting to know how Franzisca learnt to play the piano, draw and paint, embroider and play tennis.

You assume poor folk don't do those things? Needlework was in past centuries the staple of young womens' teachings and an honorable, ladylike pastime, in all classes. Read the Laura Ingalls Wilder books for example, that's what a lot of poor prairie girls sat around doing. Anyone can express an interest in art, music or sports. These things are not at all confined to the aristocracy. Don't most athletes, artists and musicians come from poor or working families? Think about it, none of those interests or skills makes anyone royal.(however it would be interesting to know how AA's skills at these things matched the real AN's, and it is likely someone told her AN liked those things.) I would also like to know how AA did these things, especially how she played piano with only one working hand, since one arm was bent and practically useless due to her 1925 bout of TB of the bones.

 

[ChatNoir]

You assume poor folk don't do those things? Needlework was in past centuries the staple of young womens' teachings and an honorable, ladylike pastime, in all classes. Read the Laura Ingalls Wilder books for example, that's what a lot of them sat around doing. Anyone can express an interest in art, music or sports. These things are not at all confined to the aristocracy. Don't most athletes, artists and musicians come from poor or working families? Think about it, none of those interests or skills makes anyone royal.

So you think the Schanzkowskis gave the kids pianolessons and had a tennis court in the back yard? Must have been rather taxing on their income knowing that FS also took language lessons in her spare time.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

You don't have to necessarily have lessons. Please explain how AA played piano with one handicapped arm. Also please give us evidence of all these talents other than one persons' alleged word for it. And she had no language skills until she was later coached. I don't even know why you bother to use languages as evidence when it clearly goes against her due to the fact she was horribly deficient in the three languages AN spoke well.

 

[ChatNoir]

You don't have to necessarily have lessons. Please explain how AA played piano with one handicapped arm.

She played with the right hand.

Also please give us evidence of all these talents other than one persons' alleged word for it.

She played tennis in New York. She embroidered handkerchiefs in Berlin which were sold at the red cross to make her a little money to buy food for the Bachmann's. She played the piano at Seeon. And she drew and painted at inspector Grünberg's house.

And she had no language skills until she was later coached.

According to Professor Rudnev, she spoke English under anesthesia. According to Conrad Wahl, she spoke "more English than German" at Grünberg's home. According to Bella Cohen, she understood English and answered her in English at Mommsen. However, not enough to determine how fluent she might be.

I don't even know why you bother to use languages as evidence when it clearly goes against her due to the fact she was horribly deficient in the three languages AN spoke well.

As Gleb Botkin said: When Xenia and AA spoke together, they spoke in English, which AA spoke much better and more fluently than German. ANd remember Erna Buchholz's testimony that AA spoke "Russian like a native".

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Ho hum Chat we've been through this language debate many times in this thread. There's even a separate thread in the family section. I'm not giving you the sport of posting it all again no matter how many times you say 'that's because you can't' because you know I have and many times and it's also on my site.Other than the word of a few supporters, AA did not know the languages AN knew. There is evidence she was coached in English in the 20s and never proved she could speak, read or write Russian. Her French was nonexistent save ONE comment from ONE supporter. Many others said differently and her inability in languages was a big reason she was not accepted by some. Even in her old age her English stank, even after many years in the US. Stop bothering to rehash lists or make excuses. AA used mainly German, just like FS, unlike AN.

 

[ChatNoir]

Ho hum Chat we've been through this language debate many times in this thread. There's even a separate thread in the family section. I'm not giving you the sport of posting it all again no matter how many times you say 'that's because you can't' because you know I have and many times and it's also on my site.Other than the word of a few supporters, AA did not know the languages AN knew.

A few supporters? Nina Chavchavadze was hardly a supporter, and even she said "it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."

There is evidence she was coached in English in the 20s

Yes, Faith Lavington and her Mother Goose rhymes. Miss Lavington also stated that "there is no doubt that she knows English very well, the trouble is to get her to speak." But on the "Berengaria" with Agnes Gallagher, who did not speak a word of German, AA began to speak English, and spoke nothing else when she arrived at New York.

and never proved she could speak, read or write Russian.

She actually did write Russian for the court.

Her French was nonexistent save ONE comment from ONE supporter.

Actually two.

Many others said differently and her inability in languages was a big reason she was not accepted by some. Even in her old age her English stank, even after many years in the US. Stop bothering to rehash lists or make excuses. AA used mainly German, just like FS, unlike AN.

In old age, her English was heavily tainted by 30 years of living in Germany. But there is no doubt about it: The lady spoke good English (Botkin, Leeds, Gallagher,) good Russian (Bucholz, Rudnev, Coyle, Botkin,)
poor German and at least some French, a language that Anastasia did not master very well.
And you still have not answered even one of my questions.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well like I said, other than the word of mouth of a few supporters....which isn't much. Dmitri Leuchtenberg said she was crashed coursed in English- this was after 1925 when Olga and Bux said she didn't understand it. She never proved she could speak, read or write Russian in court, only manage to understand a few phrases in 1965. You really do lose on the language issue, so there's no need to even use it, it's not to your advantage. AA's language of choice and true skills were like those of FS, which is who she really was.

 

[ChatNoir]

Well like I said, other than the word of mouth of a few supporters....which isn't much. Dmitri Leuchtenberg said she was crashed coursed in English- this was after 1925 when Olga and Bux said she didn't understand it. She never proved she could speak, read or write Russian in court, only manage to understand a few phrases in 1965. You really do lose on the language issue, so there's no need to even use it, it's not to your advantage. AA's language of choice and true skills were like those of FS, which is who she really was.

Totally wrong. FS spoke GOOD German, a little Khashoubian, and that was it. No English, no Russian, no French. You have a lot of explanation to do.
Also, Dmitri Leuchtenberg, wasn't he the one who lied about Kastritski? And said that he took AA to church while it was Fräulein Speyer who took her? And how did Olga and Buxhoeveden know that she did not understand it? Not answering does not mean that you do not understand. Olga was also the one who said that she did not understand Russian, but in her letter to Mordvinov, she clearly states the opposite.
And how did FS know about the things I have asked you about, plus the white pony and the cow from France?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

No English, no Russian, no French.

Yeah that's what I said. AA and FS did not speak those languages had that in common since they were the same person. AA was later coached but never spoke them well and always preferred to use German. But sigh we've been through the language mess ad nauseum

You have yet to explain how you can prove AA played the piano especially since one of her arms was practically useless after her TB of the bones. From Kurth's site:

After operations for bone tuberculosis in 1925, Mrs. Anderson’s left arm was paralyzed at the elbow ...

I would also like to see examples of her alleged artwork and how it compared to AN's art. And tennis is no real surprise to learn, here's a racquet here's a ball you hit it over the net.

 

[ChatNoir]

Yeah that's what I said. AA and FS did not speak those languages had that in common since they were the same person. AA was later coached but never spoke them well and always preferred to use German. But sigh we've been through the language mess ad nauseum

Yes, we have been through this ad nauseum, and all you can say, as usual, is that "it wasn't so because I say so." Nothing to back it up.
Again: AA spoke English already in the early 20's according to Conrad Wahl. She spoke English under anesthesia according to Rudnev. She took English dictation in Oberstdorf from an English lady and wrote down a whole page without any difficulties, although with a few spelling mistakes according to Frau Rathlef.
She spoke fluent Russian according to nurse Bucholz. She spoke Russian in her sleep according to her doctor at the Kleist's. She did the rites at Seeon in Russian according to the priest. She spoke Russian with Urvantsov. She thanked the Duchess of Leuchtenberg for the easter dinner in fluent Russian. She spoke Russian in front of Gleb Botkin who stated that she still had that special accent that Anastasia used to have. In the late 30's she spoke fluent Russian with Rudnev and Albert Coyle, and Rudnev lent her Russian books to read. Her doctors attested to her understanding of Russian and even correcting mispronounced words.

You have yet to explain how you can prove AA played the piano especially since one of her arms was practically useless after her TB of the bones. From Kurth's site:

After operations for bone tuberculosis in 1925, Mrs. Anderson’s left arm was paralyzed at the elbow ...

See previous post.

I would also like to see examples of her alleged artwork and how it compared to AN's art.

See Peter Kurth.

And tennis is no real surprise to learn, here's a racquet here's a ball you hit it over the net.

Obviously you have never taken tennis lessons.
And I am still waiting for answers to my questions. Seems to me that you do not have any.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes, we have been through this ad nauseum, and all you can say, as usual, is that "it wasn't so because I say so." Nothing to back it up.

Again I must ask, are you playing games or do you have Alzheimer's? I have posted the evidence many times, look back through this very rehashed thread, and on my site, under "AA and languages."

As I said, the only 'proof" you have is some supporter or another 'according to x according to z' but no proof as far as writing in court or speaking in public.The videos and soundbites of AA in later life speak for themselves in horrid English learned later in life, not with a British accent as a child like AN.

See previous post.

I'm not seeing my answer as to who said she played piano and how she managed with a paralyzed arm.

See Peter Kurth

Entire book? That's much more to ask for than digging through this thread.

Obviously you have never taken tennis lessons.

Had a six week term on it every year in PE from 8th grade thru 10th. That's all there was to it. I'd also like proof, pictures, and evidence of AA playing tennis and how well she did.

And I am still waiting for answers to my questions. Seems to me that you do not have any.

Attempting to be clever are you, since you know you are the one who has not answered my questions.

 

[ChatNoir]

Again I must ask, are you playing games or do you have Alzheimer's? I have posted the evidence many times, look back through this very rehashed thread, and on my site, under "AA and languages."

You have NO evidence. Nothing at all.

As I said, the only 'proof" you have is some supporter or another 'according to x according to z' but no proof as far as writing in court or speaking in public.

Yes, my dear, her written Russian was presented in court. Read Peter Kurth.

The videos and soundbites of AA in later life speak for themselves in horrid English learned later in life, not with a British accent as a child like AN.

Hardly horrid. And according to Gleb Botkin, Anastasia and her siblings had "a Russian accent when speaking English, and an English accent when speaking Russian. An accent quite their own."

I'm not seeing my answer as to who said she played piano and how she managed with a paralyzed arm.

Then try again.

Entire book? That's much more to ask for than digging through this thread.

Try the photos first.

Attempting to be clever are you, since you know you are the one who has not answered my questions.

I have answered every one. Now answer me where AA found all the information that was not presented in books and could not have been picked up by her from reading.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

You have NO evidence. Nothing at all.

Since you call quotes from those who met her to be 'nothing' that goes for yours, too?

Yes, my dear, her written Russian was presented in court. Read Peter Kurth.

I have never seen anything about writing, only answering verbally. Writing is the easiest thing to fake, just like cramming for a test, anyone can remember that long. But AA did not know the cyrillic alphabet.

Hardly horrid. And according to Gleb Botkin, Anastasia and her siblings had "a Russian accent when speaking English, and an English accent when speaking Russian. An accent quite their own."

Here you go with your 'according to' supporters rhetoric again. Listen to the tapes, they tell the true story- horrible, ungrammatic, broken English.

I have answered every one. Now answer me where AA found all the information that was not presented in books and could not have been picked up by her from reading.

Anything not in a book came from those who had known the family, such as the Botkins.

You have not answered my questions, I'm still waiting:

Where is the evidence she played piano and how did she do it with a paralyzed arm?

Where is the evidence she played tennis, and how well did she do?

Where is an example of her alleged artwork to compare to AN's paintings?

 

[ChatNoir]

Since you call quotes from those who met her to be 'nothing' that goes for yours, too?

I have no idea what you mean.

I have never seen anything about writing, only answering verbally. Writing is the easiest thing to fake, just like cramming for a test, anyone can remember that long. But AA did not know the cyrillic alphabet.

So writing a foreign language is the easiest thing to fake? Obviously, you don't speak any. Otherwise, read Peter Kurth.

Here you go with your 'according to' supporters rhetoric again. Listen to the tapes, they tell the true story- horrible, ungrammatic, broken English.

As Xenia said: Her grammar is rusty. Gilliard also writes in his book "13 years" that Anastasia's grammar was hopeless.

Anything not in a book came from those who had known the family, such as the Botkins.

The problem is, all the things I asked about, were recorded long before the meeting witht any of the Botkins.

[qutoe]Where is the evidence she played piano and how did she do it with a paralyzed arm?[/quote]

The evidence comes from Vera von Klementz' diary. AA played the piano with the right hand.

Where is the evidence she played tennis, and how well did she do?

Again, read Peter Kurth. "She played tennis like a gifted amateur."

Where is an example of her alleged artwork to compare to AN's paintings?

Again, look at the photos in Peter Kurth's book.

And now may I have the information on how she got to know the Tsar's cigarette holder, the necklace of crackenel etc etc.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

You're going to need ot do better than just putting everything off to "Kurth." Give us the person who said it, when and under what circumstances. Play the piano with one hand, what, chopstix? I can do that. This stuff really proves nothing. And you know my answer for how did she know this or that is always, either a book or an emigre told her. Don't forget there were half a million Russian emigres' in Berlin in the 20's, mainly aristocrats (poor folk didn't have the means to flee, they stayed and got killed by Stalin in work camps or lived under communism) and the possibilities of what they may have known and told her is endless. This is why her info is so sketchy, little pieces of odd things yet nothing really steady or important. Most of it probably can't even be verified one way or the other.

One more thing on the dread language mess, about the grammar being "rusty." A person such as AN who grew up speaking English with her mother would not have forgotten it (just as she would not have forgotten Russian or French) even amnesia victims don't forget the first languages. When you say Leeds said she spoke 'family English' you really need to consider that the English spoken by the Imperial kids was not the same as the English spoken by other Romanovs who learned it in class. When they grew up speaking it in their nursery and with their mother, they spoke it more like natives than someone who learned it only as a lesson as the other Romanovs had. In the end, the only reason Leeds never denounced AA is probably because she was too ashamed of being tricked (which may be your problem, too, Chat )

 

[ChatNoir]

And as usual, all hat and no cattle. And if you really had read Peter Kurth, you would know that the tennis remark was written by Harriet Rathlef Keilmann to the duke of Leuchtenberg.
Now back to my questions......

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat you know nobody can remember every word of every book. But of course, it's always just she said he said from supporters. Nothing significant, especially not against the DNA.

 

[ChatNoir]

Chat you know nobody can remember every word of every book. But of course, it's always just she said he said from supporters. Nothing significant, especially not against the DNA.

And even so, I would still like an explanation to my questions.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

So would I, such as why do all these comments from various supporters or even random people matter compared to the DNA? Many people convicted on eyewitness testimony and lineup point-outs have been freed by DNA. Once it comes in, it proves all the he said/she said stuff was useless and inaccurate.

You also need to explain WHY you believe the intestines and hair labeled as hers were not hers, and why the bones found in 2007 were not the last missing children. "I refuse to speculate" is not an answer, it's actually worse than speculating, because you don't even offer a theory. The only issue here seems to be that you want AA to be AN, but sorry, she's not.