Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Sounds like Doris was as inept as the LAPD in the OJ case. But AA was still FS and OJ is still guilty.

If we're going to go way out on limbs and guess things, I have a theory, too. Maybe the reason Doris disappeared is because AA found her again and bribed her to shut up and she'd pay her off when she won her case. You never know.

No, Doris did not disappear. She appeared in court as Frau Rittman, but refused to take the oath and finally ran away from the trial. A very credible witness.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

What year was she last seen?

 

[Russophile]

You know I am never ceased to be amazed at how quickly people like Doris and Gilliard you and Chat always call 'liars' suddenly become a reliable source if they say something you like instead of something you don't

No, actually Chat and Ferrymansdaughter weren't saying that. We know from Peter Kurth that Gilliard is a known liar, but that doesn't mean that there is truth in some of his statements. Peter has cautioned us all, when looking at Gillard's contributions, to weigh them with a grain of salt.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

No, actually Chat and Ferrymansdaughter weren't saying that. We know from Peter Kurth that Gilliard is a known liar, but that doesn't mean that there is truth in some of his statements. Peter has cautioned us all, when looking at Gillard's contributions, to weigh them with a grain of salt.

So, in other words, if he says something against AA, he's lying, if he says something that supports her, he's telling the truth?

 

[ChatNoir]

What year was she last seen?

I will assume that she was seen every day by her car selling husband and the family and friends until she passed away.

 

[Russophile]

So, in other words, if he says something against AA, he's lying, if he says something that supports her, he's telling the truth?

I was saying that that is the way WE choose to look at it--with a grain of salt. You can choose to look at it any way you like.

 

[ChatNoir]

So, in other words, if he says something against AA, he's lying, if he says something that supports her, he's telling the truth?

Let's clarify this: Gilliard said the Grand Duchesses spoke no German. We know otherwise from his own schedules and their school books. When AA described the Malachite room, he said there was no such room in the Winter Palace. When AA described the little swastika mascot on the Tsarina's car, Gilliard published a photo of same car with a big swastika drawn in on the door to show the public that nobody could miss it.
Gilliard said AA spoke no Russian when he visited her in the Mommsen Clinic. In the Hamburg court, he had to unwillingly admit that she did speak Russian to his wife. His whole description of the meeting in Berlin was rather different from that of Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, something Herluf Zahle attested to. Frau Rathlef Keilmann also sent her manuscript to Olga for verification, and Olga said it was correct.
Will this do it, or shall I find more?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Let's clarify this: Gilliard said the Grand Duchesses spoke no German. We know otherwise from his own schedules and their school books.

But technically, she didn't know German. As we've discussed before it's very possible for a person to have German lessons and not know it, I know several people in that category. Olga A. said 'German was never used in the family.' This means, even if it had been studied some it was not used and therefore not really known, and especially not to the extent that AN would abandon the 3 she knew better to use it only. Bux said she only knew 'a few German words.' Even I know a few German words. This is hardly speaking German. AA supporters like to exaggerate AN's knowledge of German because that was AA's language of choice, but it doesn't add up.

When AA described the Malachite room, he said there was no such room in the Winter Palace.

And others said there was such a room but she got the details very wrong. So her informant didn't have a good memory. She and Gilliard both fail this test.

When AA described the little swastika mascot on the Tsarina's car, Gilliard published a photo of same car with a big swastika drawn in on the door to show the public that nobody could miss it.

I've never seen it so I don't know, but assuming this is true, the likely explanation is that someone who knew told her about it, and Gilliard had never noticed it before. This doesn't mean he lied.

Gilliard said AA spoke no Russian when he visited her in the Mommsen Clinic. In the Hamburg court, he had to unwillingly admit that she did speak Russian to his wife. His whole description of the meeting in Berlin was rather different from that of Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, something Herluf Zahle attested to.

This all depends on who you believe. You mistrust Gilliard, I mistrust Rathlef.

Frau Rathlef Keilmann also sent her manuscript to Olga for verification, and Olga said it was correct.

Or so Rathlef claimed, I have seen no verification from Olga's side. Rathlef herself admitted Olga didn't read it all because she didn't know much German.

 

[ChatNoir]

But technically, she didn't know German. As we've discussed before it's very possible for a person to have German lessons and not know it, I know several people in that category. Olga A. said 'German was never used in the family.' This means, even if it had been studied some it was not used and therefore not really known, and especially not to the extent that AN would abandon the 3 she knew better to use it only. Bux said she only knew 'a few German words.' Even I know a few German words. This is hardly speaking German. AA supporters like to exaggerate AN's knowledge of German because that was AA's language of choice, but it doesn't add up.

I myself took German for 4 years, and so did everyone else at school. We NEVER used German at home. Still, we all graduated from school having knowledge of German. Some spoke it fluently, some not. But we all spoke it. AA's German was very bad, we have several attests to that. It did, however, improve as she stayed in Germany, and she even wrote a 4 page letter once, i think in 1926. A lot of spelling mistakes, but at least she had somewhat command of the language after a while.

And others said there was such a room but she got the details very wrong. So her informant didn't have a good memory. She and Gilliard both fail this test.

Well, I think we all know about the Malachite room in the Winter Palace. And the only details she got wrong, was that she mentioned "window seats" of malachite. Of course, her impression was before the restauration, so it is difficult to say if she was wrong. She could, of course, also have referred to the Catherine Hall in the Kremlin.

I've never seen it so I don't know, but assuming this is true, the likely explanation is that someone who knew told her about it, and Gilliard had never noticed it before. This doesn't mean he lied.

And who told her about it, if I may ask? When she told Zahle about it, he asked Volkov if he remembered the mascot on the Tsarina's car, and he had no recollection of it. Not until a new book came out some time later did Zahle find a photo of the car, and by the help of a strong magnifying glass was he able to see the swastika exactly where AA said it was. Gilliard then published his photo with the swastika drawn in just to downplay the story.

This all depends on who you believe. You mistrust Gilliard, I mistrust Rathlef.

As you see, I have great reason for not trusting Gilliard. What is your reason for not trusting Harriet von Rathef Keilmann?

Or so Rathlef claimed, I have seen no verification from Olga's side. Rathlef herself admitted Olga didn't read it all because she didn't know much German.

Exactly, that should be proof enough, shouldn't it.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

AA's German was very bad, we have several attests to that.

Then why did she choose to use it over 3 languages she knew better, if she was AN? Why did she refuse to speak English, Russian or French with Olga, Bux or Yussoupov? Because she wasn't AN.

Well, I think we all know about the Malachite room in the Winter Palace. And the only details she got wrong, was that she mentioned "window seats" of malachite. Of course, her impression was before the restauration, so it is difficult to say if she was wrong. She could, of course, also have referred to the Catherine Hall in the Kremlin.

Guess the person who told her of it got it wrong. The tidbits of info in her 'memories' seem to have come from someone with an intimate yet limited knowledge of the family and their surroundings. Personally I believe she had both intentional info feeders as well as picking up stuff on her own speaking with emigres'.

And who told her about it, if I may ask? When she told Zahle about it, he asked Volkov if he remembered the mascot on the Tsarina's car, and he had no recollection of it. Not until a new book came out some time later did Zahle find a photo of the car, and by the help of a strong magnifying glass was he able to see the swastika exactly where AA said it was. Gilliard then published his photo with the swastika drawn in just to downplay the story.

Maybe it was drawn in, I don't think we'll ever know the whole truth here.

As you see, I have great reason for not trusting Gilliard. What is your reason for not trusting Harriet von Rathef Keilmann?

1. She never knew the real AN
2. She was a writer making the "Anastasia" story so famous there came to be cigarettes named after her.

So, in part I don't think she knew much and would have been able to tell the difference in a real and fake AN, and second the publicity brought by "Anastasia" IMO puts her in question. I don't know if she really believed her and was tricked by others, or if she was intentionally selling the story, I don't think we'll ever know. But at least Gilliard knew the real AN and RF.

 

[ChatNoir]

Then why did she choose to use it over 3 languages she knew better, if she was AN? Why did she refuse to speak English, Russian or French with Olga, Bux or Yussoupov? Because she wasn't AN.

When in Germany, do as the Germans. If you are running for your life, what do you do? You try to blend in. Of course, with her Russian accent and bad German, she stuck out like a sore thumb. Russian she refused to speak with anybody, she apparently associated that with the danger of being discovered and sent back. English she would speak under sedation, but when she woke up, she had no idea that she had used it. Only when she met an English lady on a boat trip in 1926 did she suddenly start to read and write English again, like she had been freed of some impediment.

Guess the person who told her of it got it wrong. The tidbits of info in her 'memories' seem to have come from someone with an intimate yet limited knowledge of the family and their surroundings. Personally I believe she had both intentional info feeders as well as picking up stuff on her own speaking with emigres'.

Yes, and I am sure everybody she met had traipsed through all the Tsar's palaces and knew the family intimately. Get real.

Maybe it was drawn in, I don't think we'll ever know the whole truth here.

Oh yes, we will. Photos of the Empress' car clearly show the little swastika on the hood. Gilliard was doing his dirty work again.

1. She never knew the real AN
2. She was a writer making the "Anastasia" story so famous there came to be cigarettes named after her.

No, she did not. And that is why she could never identify her or verify any of the stories AA told. She could only write her report, and that is what she did.

So, in part I don't think she knew much and would have been able to tell the difference in a real and fake AN, and second the publicity brought by "Anastasia" IMO puts her in question. I don't know if she really believed her and was tricked by others, or if she was intentionally selling the story, I don't think we'll ever know. But at least Gilliard knew the real AN and RF.

She sold the story to help AA, and every penny she made on it, she donated to AA's upkeep. And Gilliard knew the real AA. That's why he asked Olga to come to Berlin, and that's why he said to Dr. Rudnev: I will do anything I can to help the Grand Duchess. And that's why he told Herluf Zahle that: We are leaving Berlin without being able to say that she is NOT the Grand Duchess. Only three months after was he able to say so, without ever seeing AA again.

 

[ChatNoir]

Miss Lavington's report.

On 5th November, 1927, I received at Schloss Seeon a letter from my sister Ruth, with two large illustrated sheets from the New York Tribune of 23 October in intaglio. They contained excellent reproductions of photographs of the private apartments of the late Tsar in Tsarskoe Selo, Peterhof, and Livadia. The Soviet Government supervises these palaces, and these photographs were, presumably, taken in very difficult circumstances by a certain H. Neumann. On the first page was written: The first uncensored pictures from Soviet Russia. My sister told me to give these pictures to Mrs. Chaikovski. With the intention of sparing the invalid, who was so easily agitated, and at the same time of testing her, we took the photographs of Livadia, which has been made a Soviet sanatorium, and carefully cut off all the reading matter and anything that might have helped her to recognize the pictures. I took six of the best, which were numbered, in order that no mistake should arise later, and asked the invalid to look at these pictures. I placed one of them before her, a rather indistinct reproduction of the Tsar's bathroom and swimming bath, and asked what it represented. She took the picture, quite indifferently at first; but, after a few moments, she cried in the greatest astonishment, 'That is my father's bathroom!' Then, when she saw the other pictures, the Tsar's study, the bedrooms, the boudoir, the music room, and the children's play-room, she became very much agitated and cried out in an anguished voice, 'But those are our rooms!' She went away quickly to her room, with bowed head, obviously in great agitation. After a few minutes, I knocked at the door, and received permission to enter, The invalid was standing in the middle of the room, very red and excited, and, before I could say anything, she asked me, in tones of the strongest disapproval, 'How can these photographes have got into this paper?' To my reply that money would buy everything, she sorrowfully assented.
Then, after reflecting for a short time, she told me with great assurance where and what these rooms were. Looking at the picture of another bedroom, she said quite quickly, 'This was my brother's room'.
When she looked at a photograph of the Tsar's study, she recognized the table at once, and said, indicating a framed photograph of a lady who could not be clearly distinguished, 'That is my father's mother.' In another reproduction, she pointed out a picture on the wall, and said 'That is my brother,' and, on closer examination, it proved to be actually the picture of a little boy in a sailor suit. The photograph is, however, so indistinct and dark that only good knowledge or this room could have made a statement of this sort possible.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

When in Germany, do as the Germans. If you are running for your life, what do you do? You try to blend in. Of course, with her Russian accent and bad German, she stuck out like a sore thumb.

It still doesn't explain why she wouldn't have been eager to speak a more familiar language with someone who knew it, like Olga or Yussoupov. Bux said the spoke to her in the same English phrases she used with the Grand Duchesses and she didn't understand an word.

Even if her ridiculous escape story had been true she wouldn't have been in Germany that long, coming from Romania- or was it via Paris with the thugs after her?

Russian she refused to speak with anybody, she apparently associated that with the danger of being discovered and sent back. English she would speak under sedation, but when she woke up, she had no idea that she had used it. Only when she met an English lady on a boat trip in 1926 did she suddenly start to read and write English again, like she had been freed of some impediment.

These are your imagined excuses and look to me like a fanfiction story, sorry.

Yes, and I am sure everybody she met had traipsed through all the Tsar's palaces and knew the family intimately. Get real.

I am. She met up with several who had. There were half a million Russian emigres' in Berlin in 1920, how do you know who they all were and where all they 'traipsed?' One person who never did 'traipse' there was AA/FS!

Oh yes, we will. Photos of the Empress' car clearly show the little swastika on the hood. Gilliard was doing his dirty work again.

Can you post this?

She sold the story to help AA, and every penny she made on it, she donated to AA's upkeep. And Gilliard knew the real AA. That's why he asked Olga to come to Berlin, and that's why he said to Dr. Rudnev: I will do anything I can to help the Grand Duchess. And that's why he told Herluf Zahle that: We are leaving Berlin without being able to say that she is NOT the Grand Duchess. Only three months after was he able to say so, without ever seeing AA again.

I don't want to bring up the dog story again and give Ferrymansdaughter another dime, but all this means is that he thought it may have been her because she was so sick and damaged, but as time went on he realized it wasn't her (and was probably furious at being used and taken) Maybe as an 'ex supporter' he wanted to show everyone else the light! (like me and Tim)

 

[ChatNoir]

It still doesn't explain why she wouldn't have been eager to speak a more familiar language with someone who knew it, like Olga or Yussoupov. Bux said the spoke to her in the same English phrases she used with the Grand Duchesses and she didn't understand an word.

And how do we know that?

Even if her ridiculous escape story had been true she wouldn't have been in Germany that long, coming from Romania- or was it via Paris with the thugs after her?

She had been in Germany (at Elizabeth Hospital and Dalldorf) for a year and a half. The Paris story is pure fiction a la Gilliard and Savich. Maybe with a little Peuthert mixed in. And don't forget, we have witnesses to that ridiculous escape story.

These are your imagined excuses and look to me like a fanfiction story, sorry.

Everything looks like fan fiction to you, but remember, we are dealing with a person here who had even forgotten how to count past ten.

I am. She met up with several who had. There were half a million Russian emigres' in Berlin in 1920, how do you know who they all were and where all they 'traipsed?' One person who never did 'traipse' there was AA/FS!

Yes, and they all came to see Baron von Kleist between May and August. And how come AA knew the room in the summer residence Alexandria, on the window pane of which the Empress used to scratch with her diamond ring, every year that they went there, the year and her initials and the Tsar's?

Can you post this?

No, I don't have the book in my collection. But if I come across it again, I will definitely give you a copy.

I don't want to bring up the dog story again and give Ferrymansdaughter another dime, but all this means is that he thought it may have been her because she was so sick and damaged, but as time went on he realized it wasn't her (and was probably furious at being used and taken) Maybe as an 'ex supporter' he wanted to show everyone else the light! (like me and Tim)

Yes, especially since they never got the opportunity to see her when she was healthy, study her mannerisms, see her walk etc.

 

[ChatNoir]

I found something interesting:
From Sophie Buxhoeveden's book:

The Empress was very ailing then (in Riga), and could with difficulty manage the necessary public appearances. She was not well enough to go on shore, and held receptions of the Baltic nobility on the yacht, while the Emperor and her daughters went to the functions on land.

AA told Frau Rathlef Keilmann:

Our brother was not allowed ashore. In the first place, he was too young, and, besides, Mamma was too nervous about him. I can remember plainly how, when we were in Riga, he used to amuse himself roller-skating on the Standard.
I can't say much regarding Riga...I only know that we had to plant seven trees, one for each of us.
I filled in the soil for my own tree myself. Mamma and my brother were not present on that occasion. Mamma did not assist either at the banquet held in the house with such a strange name (Schwarzhäupter-Haus)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And how do we know that?

So you're suggesting Bux is a liar.

She had been in Germany (at Elizabeth Hospital and Dalldorf) for a year and a half.

And those hostages recently released from Columbian rebels were held for six years, and John McCain was held in Viet Nam for 6 years, yet they all came out still speaking perfect English!

The Paris story is pure fiction a la Gilliard and Savich. Maybe with a little Peuthert mixed in. And don't forget, we have witnesses to that ridiculous escape story.

The story was a signed statement from Clara P. You always base much of what you post on someone's 'signed statement' but here we go with something you want to disregard and you try to say Gilliard made it up.

Everything looks like fan fiction to you, but remember, we are dealing with a person here who had even forgotten how to count past ten.

What it really looks like is that you're calling everyone a liar if they are against AA, and I am questioning the motives of those who backed her. So what do we have left to discuss?

And if she couldn't count past 10 how could she remember amazing details, only if it suits her case, and if it doesn't it's written off as memory loss? This is the tactic used by Rathlef to make excuses for her that so annoyed people such as Volkov.

Yes, and they all came to see Baron von Kleist between May and August. And how come AA knew the room in the summer residence Alexandria, on the window pane of which the Empress used to scratch with her diamond ring, every year that they went there, the year and her initials and the Tsar's?

Someone on AP had an interesting theory, she picked up one bit of info from one visitor, and used it to impress another. Someday I would like to reread all of the books out at the time and try to see if any of this info was in one of them. I sure don't have time now.

No, I don't have the book in my collection. But if I come across it again, I will definitely give you a copy.

Thanks!

Yes, especially since they never got the opportunity to see her when she was healthy, study her mannerisms, see her walk etc.

By then he knew it wasn't her.

I found something interesting:
From Sophie Buxhoeveden's book:

The Empress was very ailing then (in Riga), and could with difficulty manage the necessary public appearances. She was not well enough to go on shore, and held receptions of the Baltic nobility on the yacht, while the Emperor and her daughters went to the functions on land.

AA told Frau Rathlef Keilmann:

Our brother was not allowed ashore. In the first place, he was too young, and, besides, Mamma was too nervous about him. I can remember plainly how, when we were in Riga, he used to amuse himself roller-skating on the Standard.
I can't say much regarding Riga...I only know that we had to plant seven trees, one for each of us.
I filled in the soil for my own tree myself. Mamma and my brother were not present on that occasion. Mamma did not assist either at the banquet held in the house with such a strange name (Schwarzhäupter-Haus)

But don't you see, if this was in one book, it might have been in another, and it was definitely something those who survived and got away knew about? Really, the only question here is who told her, because someone did, because she wasn't AN. It would be so interesting to be able to investigate and find out how she got the info and what was behind it. Some people believe no one fed her and she picked it all up herself using one emigre against another. I don't personally believe she was that clever, and had to have had help at least half the time.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Written by Anna AlexandrovnaVyrubova in 1923 CHAPTER V
[SIZE=-1] These yearly visits to the Crimea were diversified with holiday voyages on the Standart and visits to relatives and close friends in various countries. In 1910 their Majesties visited Riga and other Baltic ports where they were royally welcomed, afterwards voyaging to Finnish waters where they received as guests the King and Queen of Sweden. This was an official visit, hence attended with considerable ceremony, exchange visits of the Sovereigns from yacht to warship, state dinners and receptions. At one of these dinners I sat next the admiral of the Swedish fleet, who was much depressed because during the royal salute to the Emperor one of his sailors had accidentally been killed.

[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]In the autumn of 1910 the Emperor and Empress went to Nauheim, hoping that the waters would have a beneficial effect on her failing health. They left on a cold and rainy day and both were in a melancholy state, partly because of separation from the beloved home, and partly because of the quite apparent weakness of the Empress. On her account the Emperor showed himself deeply disturbed. "I would do anything," he said to me, "even to going to prison, if she could only be well again." This anxiety was shared by the whole household, even by the servants who stood in line on the staircase saying their farewells, kissing the shoulder of the Emperor and the gloved hand of the Empress.[/SIZE]
...

[SIZE=-1]Another memorable excursion was to the estates of Prince Oldenburg on the coast of Caucasia. The sea that day was very rough and by the time we reached our destination the Empress was so prostrated that she could not go ashore.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]Just another example of how this stuff was out there.
[/SIZE]

 

[ChatNoir]

So you're suggesting Bux is a liar.

No, I just want to know how she knew that AA did not understand a word. Did she say so?

And those hostages recently released from Columbian rebels were held for six years, and John McCain was held in Viet Nam for 6 years, yet they all came out still speaking perfect English!

And had they been hit on the head so they were unconscious for a long time?

The story was a signed statement from Clara P. You always base much of what you post on someone's 'signed statement' but here we go with something you want to disregard and you try to say Gilliard made it up.

And where is that statement now? Burned to a crisp. That's why we'll never know.

What it really looks like is that you're calling everyone a liar if they are against AA, and I am questioning the motives of those who backed her. So what do we have left to discuss?

Again, the only ones I am calling liars, are the ones who got caught lying.

And if she couldn't count past 10 how could she remember amazing details, only if it suits her case, and if it doesn't it's written off as memory loss? This is the tactic used by Rathlef to make excuses for her that so annoyed people such as Volkov.

Sorry, this does not come from Rathlef.

Someone on AP had an interesting theory, she picked up one bit of info from one visitor, and used it to impress another. Someday I would like to reread all of the books out at the time and try to see if any of this info was in one of them. I sure don't have time now.

And the amazing thing is, that people on that same board have access tons of books that AA never had access to, and they still don't know a fraction of what she did. Including you.

By then he knew it wasn't her.

And what caused his turnaround since he did not see her again?

But don't you see, if this was in one book, it might have been in another, and it was definitely something those who survived and got away knew about? Really, the only question here is who told her, because someone did, because she wasn't AN. It would be so interesting to be able to investigate and find out how she got the info and what was behind it. Some people believe no one fed her and she picked it all up herself using one emigre against another. I don't personally believe she was that clever, and had to have had help at least half the time.

Well, you keep looking for "the ones who told her." I will be sitting here waiting.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

No, I just want to know how she knew that AA did not understand a word. Did she say so?

She could tell by the look on her face she had no clue, combined with the fact that she never responded. Don't you think a real AN would have said "Oh, Isa, I am so happy to see you again, hug me!" in English? It's much more likely than not responding at all. Bux said she kept looking to the nurse and would only talk to her.

And had they been hit on the head so they were unconscious for a long time?

Beaten, chained, tortured, lots of ways.

And where is that statement now? Burned to a crisp. That's why we'll never know.

I know you like that so you can claim it was fake, but surely someone had another copy. Maybe even in the newspapers?

Again, the only ones I am calling liars, are the ones who got caught lying.

But again, if those 'caught lying' say something you like, you quote them as a 'fact.'

Sorry, this does not come from Rathlef.

No, Volkov.

"the conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tchiakovsky seemed to me very suspect. They intervened all the time, completed her inadequate answers, and excused all her errors under the pretext she was 'ill.'"

And the amazing thing is, that people on that same board have access tons of books that AA never had access to, and they still don't know a fraction of what she did. Including you.

If the book was out at the time, it's possible she, Rathlef, Von Kliest or another supporter could have read it to her or told her of its contents.

Well, you keep looking for "the ones who told her." I will be sitting here waiting.

For the last time, AA WAS NOT AN. She was never in Russia. She never knew the family. Therefore someone HAD to have told her. Common sense.

 

[Michael HR]

Well as we know from Russia that the last two bodies have been found, one son and one daughter, and assuming that there is a DNA match via A.F.'s DNA this bring s this story of AA as AN to an end, thankfully. AA was a clever liar in my view helped by others, Dr. Botkin's son springs to mind at this point, for what ever their personal reasons were.

Soon I hope all members of the Imperial Family will lie together and AA can be sent to the trash can of history as with all those who supported her and gained financially from her, her lies and the pain she caused others down the years.

 

[Menarue]

Amen, Michael HR, Amen.

 

[AGRBear]

For Bear, who had never believed AA was GD Anastasia, the story about AA has always be an interesting story on it's own.

One of the stories was AA's claim to have traveled from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest in a cart along with the Tschaikowsky during the time frame of July 1918 to late Dec.. This was a period of five months. And, since other's made this trip within this time frame of five months, I see no reason why AA, if she had been in Ekaterinburg, could not have accomplished the same task.

Here is a post I made on AP some time ago and AWF was a part of this discussion.

Since most of you know my AGRBear means American-German-Russian-Bear, I know a great deal about the journey between Germany and Russia. I have found diaries, read books and heard family stories about how the Germans migr. to all corners of Russia from the late 1700s into about the 1850s. Since some of my ancestors walked from Alsace [north of Strassburg] to Russia to Odessa then on to Kherson over to Tiflis in the Caucasus then to Palestine in the early 1800s, I can honestly say, yes, such a trip is possible.

In several of my books there are daily accounts of several people who traveled from Germany to Russia. Some traveled by land and the others was from Ulm on boat on the Danube River into Russia and by wagon to Odessa area.

Here is a photographs of people traveling during the WWI in Russia:

I think chintz22 has the correct idea on the math but I'll have to dig out some of my books, study the dates and then reverse them.

...[in part]...

As you can see by the photo there was no need for GD Anastasia, IF she survived, to be hidden once the she and her rescuers had mingled with the masses. Papers could be found on those who died along the way. If that didn't occur, money touched hands and they passed through....

AA tells us about being save by the Tschaikowky brothers who placed her in a cart and traveled to Bucharest, Rumania. The majority of people believe this is the weakest part of AA's story. Was such a trip possible? Yes. Others did it? What about her wounds? Wouldn't she have died because of them before reaching Bucharest? Read some of the diaries and letters about those who did make this trip. You'll discover the Bolsheviks didn't just aim their guns at the Romanovs.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear, we've been through this many times before, but for the benefit (and misfortune) of anyone who hasn't seen it before I'll do my part. What you show here, bear, is people who are traveling together, in a well organized party, such as the pioneers in the US "Oregon Trail". Sure, a group like that, using main roads, busy towns and river ferries could possibly have made AA's alleged journey in 5 months, but that's not what the AA story tells us.

Remember that (and this is just for the sake of discussion, of course her story is false) AA said they had to hide from Bolsheviks and were in constant fear of being caught and killed. For goodness sakes, she was a Grand Duchess who escaped a massacre and he a deserted red soldier, sure to be shot on sight! They wouldn't have had the 'luxury' of main roads, towns, ferries and help from anyone. They'd have to be hiding, staying off roads, going through muddy areas, forests, sneaking around, I think one of her accounts claimed they only traveled at night. Don't forget that she was allegedly very injured and had no medical care. The infection alone would have killed her, if the wounds did not. How did they eat? What did they do in bad weather?

I really don't think those who invented this story took all this into consideration, or the rocky mountains and rough terrain along the way, and especially the very early and harsh Russian winter. Ever heard of the Donner party? They had planned to cross the mountains before the first snowfall but it caught them early and deadly. People on those organized trips such as shown in bear's picture, in any country, made sure winter would not be a factor and planned their trips accordingly. Leaving in July is TOO LATE. An alleged 'witness' claims to have helped them cross the Dniester in early Dec.- but considering the time and place, the river would have been frozen! The entire story is logistically impossible UNDER THE CONDITIONS DESCRIBED.

an online trip calculator estimated the distance between Ekaterinburg and Bucharest to be 1,719 AIR miles, as the crow flies...but considering it would have been, according her her own story, on back roads, unimproved, and at some places no roads at all, it would have been a much longer distance and taken much more time than their claimed Dec. 5, 1918 arrival date. Online map sites tell me they cannot calculate a driving distance between the two cities, meaning that even today, there aren't enough improved roads to make a direct connection. Adding it up via the legend on a world atlas, the trip would have been at least 2,300 miles, perhaps as many as 2,800 if they had to go around certain impassible terrain. So you see the logisitics of such a trip under the circumstances is completely impossible.

And bear, I really want to know, WHY, if you 'don't believe she was AN' do ALL yes ALL of your posts support AA and her supporters, you are a common ally of them and always against those of us telling the other side? If you don't believe she was AN, why don't your posts reflect this? Look- suppose I put at the top of my posts "I BELIEVE AA WAS AN!" then everything in my posts was against that position. Would you believe me? This really does make one wonder.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well as we know from Russia that the last two bodies have been found, one son and one daughter, and assuming that there is a DNA match via A.F.'s DNA this bring s this story of AA as AN to an end, thankfully. AA was a clever liar in my view helped by others, Dr. Botkin's son springs to mind at this point, for what ever their personal reasons were.

Soon I hope all members of the Imperial Family will lie together and AA can be sent to the trash can of history as with all those who supported her and gained financially from her, her lies and the pain she caused others down the years.

I agree with Menarue, amen! Thanks for your post, I totally agree. I'll try to hold out hope an end is soon.

 

[Menarue]

Thanks for the photo AGRB, it is hard to even imagine the hardships that these poor people went through. I personally don´t care much whether AA went to Rumania by cart or anywhere else, as she wasn´t the Grand Duchess.
I have the utmost respect for the people like your ancestors who made this journey. As you said, why would anyone need to hide in that mass of people all anyone could think of was survival and getting their families to a safe haven.

 

[ChatNoir]

She could tell by the look on her face she had no clue, combined with the fact that she never responded. Don't you think a real AN would have said "Oh, Isa, I am so happy to see you again, hug me!" in English? It's much more likely than not responding at all. Bux said she kept looking to the nurse and would only talk to her.

According to AA, she was afraid of "Isa" because she suspected that she had betrayed the IF. (See page 142 of FOTR).

Beaten, chained, tortured, lots of ways.

But no fractured scull or signs of inner bleeding on the brain.

I know you like that so you can claim it was fake, but surely someone had another copy. Maybe even in the newspapers?

When you find it, let me know.

But again, if those 'caught lying' say something you like, you quote them as a 'fact.'

Gilliard was not caught in any lies until January, 1926. That's when his attitude changed towards AA.

No, Volkov.

"the conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tchiakovsky seemed to me very suspect. They intervened all the time, completed her inadequate answers, and excused all her errors under the pretext she was 'ill.'"

And wasn't it also Volkov who said: Yes, I believe she is the Grand Duchess?

If the book was out at the time, it's possible she, Rathlef, Von Kliest or another supporter could have read it to her or told her of its contents.

Good Lord, that Franziska must have had a memory like an elephant! Besides, so many doctor's who examined her all agreed that the experiences she talked about, had to have been her own.

For the last time, AA WAS NOT AN. She was never in Russia. She never knew the family. Therefore someone HAD to have told her. Common sense.

Time will show.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

According to AA, she was afraid of "Isa" because she suspected that she had betrayed the IF. (See page 142 of FOTR)

She didn't betray the family, read her books and see what a hard time she had getting out of Russia. The reason she didn't respond is because she didn't know Bux or English. She only used the 'betray' excuse later because she always trashed the reps of those who denied her.

Good Lord, that Franziska must have had a memory like an elephant! Besides, so many doctor's who examined her all agreed that the experiences she talked about, had to have been her own.

Well, they weren't, so take that however you want.

As for the article you posted: that is only Maria V., who claims to be the head of the family, the descendant of Kyril. She always backs up what the ROC say, and they have never accepted any of the bones, not even the 1991 ones. BUT- the reason is they believe the remains to be dissolved- if any were found, they'd have to be Holy relics and perhaps that's an issue they don't want to deal with.

AND- IT NEEDS TO BE POINTED OUT WITH EMPHASIS THAT NEITHER THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH NOR MARIA VLADIMIROVNA BELIEVE ANONE SURVIVED AND DO NOT SUPPORT ANY CLAIMANTS!!

The Romanov family association, headed by Prince Nicholas, the one most of the descendants belong to (including Xenia's) have not made any official word on this yet. Please don't confuse the entire family with the word of Maria V. most of them don't even speak to her and she doesn't speak for them.

 

[ChatNoir]

She didn't betray the family, read her books and see what a hard time she had getting out of Russia. The reason she didn't respond is because she didn't know Bux or English. She only used the 'betray' excuse later because she always trashed the reps of those who denied her.

Well, we have Rodianov's testimony which later turned out to be correct, and we have the Empress' letter to Anna Vyburova where she writes about von Buxhoeveden: Does she have a guilty conscience?
And remember: Buxhoeveden was the only one who refused to testify for Sokolov.

Well, they weren't, so take that however you want.

And how did she then name correctly the rooms in the palaces that Lavington showed her?

As for the article you posted: that is only Maria V., who claims to be the head of the family, the descendant of Kyril. She always backs up what the ROC say, and they have never accepted any of the bones, not even the 1991 ones. BUT- the reason is they believe the remains to be dissolved- if any were found, they'd have to be Holy relics and perhaps that's an issue they don't want to deal with.

AND- IT NEEDS TO BE POINTED OUT WITH EMPHASIS THAT NEITHER THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH NOR MARIA VLADIMIROVNA BELIEVE ANONE SURVIVED AND DO NOT SUPPORT ANY CLAIMANTS!!

The Romanov family association, headed by Prince Nicholas, the one most of the descendants belong to (including Xenia's) have not made any official word on this yet. Please don't confuse the entire family with the word of Maria V. most of them don't even speak to her and she doesn't speak for them.

Just reporting the news, that's all.

 

[AGRBear]

...[in part]...What you show here, bear, is people who are traveling together, in a well organized party, such as the pioneers in the US "Oregon Trail". Sure, a group like that, using main roads, busy towns and river ferries could possibly have made AA's alleged journey in 5 months, but that's not what the AA story tells us.

My illustration was not an organized migration. The people were getting away from the horrors of WWI. There are photos which show people who were getting away from the horrors of the Bolsheviks, which look the same.

And, as usual, you've added your own twist to AA's story.

I'm off for a sail.

I'll add more Monday.

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well, we have Rodianov's testimony which later turned out to be correct, and we have the Empress' letter to Anna Vyburova where she writes about von Buxhoeveden: Does she have a guilty conscience?

No, we do NOT have this. I asked you for it once before and when you couldn't produce it, you said it must have been Alexandra's diary. However, there is no such record of this alleged statement. If you want to read Alexandra's diary, it has been published. If you want to read the letters Anna V. received from the family in captivity, they are in her book.

And how did she then name correctly the rooms in the palaces that Lavington showed her?

And who would have known the difference? And if someone did know the difference, they could also have told her. If it was in a magazine, there would have been writing and captions.Even if these were 'cut off first' as some claim, they could have been seen before. Remember Chat, she WAS NOT AN. Therefore, the information came from elsewhere.

Just reporting the news, that's all.

Just want to make it clear that 'House of Romanov' = Maria V. and her son. The ROMANOV FAMILY ASSOCIATION, which has not denied the results, is the rest of the family, the two don't get along and don't speak for each other. I didn't want anyone to be misled into believing the whole Romanov family said this, only Maria V. and the ROC Patriarch.