Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

To which I answer :

How can you deny science in such a way ? Of course there's a margin of error but come on, she disappeared the same year FS did. And DNA is still very reliable.

Yes, but that still does not change the fact AA looks very much like AN on photos. And disappearing in the same year means nothing. Especially when you disappear three weeks after you're found.

 

[ChatNoir]

How do you know the Dr. was right or honest? She may have gotten the bunions standing up at the munitions factory.

According to her family, she had no bunions on her feet. None whatsoever.

Blurry pictures. She sure didn't get 5 points on that DNA test.

DNA tests have points?

Then I defer to Oxlee.

Who compared 1 photo of FS (unauthenticated) and 1 photo of AA, taken from slightly different angles. Very scientific proof!

Oh yes he did, it's well documented he was in on starting it, even helped pick the name. He's the one who enlisted Fallows.

He brought in Fallows, but had nothing to do with Grandanor. Nothing. Please read up on this.

Or they could have been curled with a curling iron and she stopped. Or it could have been a lie. Either way it doesn't matter, hair is too easy to change. You can see in the pic of FS her hair was parted on the side exactly like AA's.

Maybe she lost her curling iron in the canal......

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Indeed! I have been on the receiving end of somebody not happy with my posts about Anna Anderson/Anastasia/others involved and have had that person post my personal information on the Internet. So I don't fault DaveK or FerrymansDaughter or Anna was Franziska for wanting a degree of anonyminity on this volatile subject!

We agree on something! The internet is too big and too full of weirdos or potential dangers. It's bad enough being harassed on the computer, but if it could cross over into your real life, that's unacceptable. No one should have to reveal their own personal info if they don't want to, and no one should do it for them. It's wrong.

 

[TheTruth]

Yes, but that still does not change the fact AA looks very much like AN on photos. And disappearing in the same year means nothing. Especially when you disappear three weeks after you're found.

How can you talk in weeks when we don't even know for sure when she was born ?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

We agree on something! The internet is too big and too full of weirdos or potential dangers. It's bad enough being harassed on the computer, but if it could cross over into your real life, that's unacceptable. No one should have to reveal their own personal info if they don't want to, and no one should do it for them. It's wrong.

Yes, that's why it's best not to use your full name in your username. Thousands of people from all over the internet can get your personal information. It's terrible when a problem on the internet can effect your entire life.That's why it's also not good to put your exact location online either.

 

[Elspeth]

CONGENITAL BILATERAL HALLUX VALGUS

According to what I can gather from that paper, he's saying that bilateral hallux valgus is a common condition but is extremely rare in infants. That's right there in the first couple of sentences. Unless I'm missing something, this extreme rarity they're talking about is specific to seeing this condition in infants, especially ones who've never worn shoes.

Names, please.

I believe AwF has been talking about Geoffrey Oxlee. In the NOVA programme, it said something about the ear matching (which according to one expert was 5/5 for one ear and 4/5 for the other) being disputed by another expert but no names were given, and without a transcript I don't know if a name was given in the programme itself.

There is no conflicts about her eye color, the only one who said that she had grey eyes, was Gibbes, who also described Maria's blue eyes as "nice grey".
And there are really no disagreement of the haircolor, Olga just thought it looked a little darker.

Well, it looks as though one person said it was a little darker, one said it was a little lighter, and this is being interpreted as "they were identical." I don't think this is all that convincing, to be honest.

 

[Elspeth]

DNA tests have points?

Well, they did use six DNA loci in the test, so it's not that laughable a comparison.

 

[ChatNoir]

How can you talk in weeks when we don't even know for sure when she was born ?

According to the Berlin Police records, AA was found on February 17th, 1920. Franzisca's "Abmeldung" was dated March 9, 1920. Felix Schanzkowski got a birthday card from Franzisca 8 to 12 days after his birthday on February 17th where his sister apologized for her tardiness due to loads of work.

 

[TheTruth]

Well now I don't understand why DNA tests says it's FS and the dates don't match. To me, I'll always question more dates than scientific proof.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I believe AwF has been talking about Geoffrey Oxlee. In the NOVA programme, it said something about the ear matching (which according to one expert was 5/5 for one ear and 4/5 for the other) being disputed by another expert but no names were given, and without a transcript I don't know if a name was given in the programme itself.

I've been looking for my copy of the episode so I could transcribe it myself but it isn't in my video cabinet. Oxlee was the forensic identity specialist who said the faces of AA and FS were perfect match. I don't remember the name of the ones who did the ears.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well now I don't understand why DNA tests says it's FS and the dates don't match. To me, I'll always question more dates than scientific proof.

Just because she wasn't reported missing immediately doesn't mean it wasn't FS. We're talking about a poor girl living far from her family in impoverished postwar (WWI) Berlin, not the 21st century where everyone is in constant contact via cell phone and email freaks out when someone doesn't answer. In the old days, people were lucky to get a letter once every few months. They probably didn't even have access to phones as her relatives were very poor and lived way out in the country. In those days it was not uncommon not to hear from someone for a long time. It's still the same time frame, more than close enough considering the time and place.

In 1993, Michael Jordan's father was murdered, thrown in a bog and found rotten before anyone in the family even noticed he was missing. They said it wasn't unusual for him to go off on long trips alone and not call home. So there's really no meaning to FS not being reported missing right away. The people she was lodging with may have thought she just ran off with a guy or something.

Also, about Chat's infamous 'card', he keeps changing the story every time he tells it. There is no proof the card even existed, no one ever saw it, or its postmark. Besides we will never know how long the mail took it to get there. It was war ravaged country suffering from hyperinflation at the time.

 

[ChatNoir]

Just because she wasn't reported missing immediately doesn't mean it wasn't FS. We're talking about a poor girl living far from her family in impoverished postwar (WWI) Berlin, not the 21st century where everyone is in constant contact via cell phone and email freaks out when someone doesn't answer. In the old days, people were lucky to get a letter once every few months. They probably didn't even have access to phones as her relatives were very poor and lived way out in the country. In those days it was not uncommon not to hear from someone for a long time. It's still the same time frame, more than close enough considering the time and place.

Pure speculation. Nothing more, nothing less. And how poor was she? Seems that she could afford a curling iron. And her parents did not live way out in the country, they lived in a village in Pomerania. And we don't even know if it was Franziska herself who gave the Abmeldung to the police or if it was the Wingenders. All we know for sure, is that Frau Wingender, "at some time in March, contacted Franziska's family to report that she had disappeared."

In 1993, Michael Jordan's father was murdered, thrown in a bog and found rotten before anyone in the family even noticed he was missing. They said it wasn't unusual for him to go off on long trips alone and not call home. So there's really no meaning to FS not being reported missing right away. The people she was lodging with may have thought she just ran off with a guy or something.

More speculation.

Also, about Chat's infamous 'card', he keeps changing the story every time he tells it. There is no proof the card even existed, no one ever saw it, or its postmark. Besides we will never know how long the mail took it to get there. It was war ravaged country suffering from hyperinflation at the time.

No, this is not my card, this is the card that Felix told Dr. Völler about when the latter went to Ammendorf to collect Felix for the meeting with his alleged sister. And I am not changing my story, Felix said that he received the card from 8 to 12 days late (after all, it was 7 years later when he told the story!), and he believed it was postmarked as having come from Berlin.
(Now, why didn't Martin Knopf think of calling in the family to identify FS right away? Why was this left to AA's supporters? Curious and curiouser.)

 

[ChatNoir]

According to what I can gather from that paper, he's saying that bilateral hallux valgus is a common condition but is extremely rare in infants. That's right there in the first couple of sentences. Unless I'm missing something, this extreme rarity they're talking about is specific to seeing this condition in infants, especially ones who've never worn shoes.

And I was talking about congenital bilateral Hallux Valgus. Also, it was more developed in the right foot than the left on both AA and AN.

Well, it looks as though one person said it was a little darker, one said it was a little lighter, and this is being interpreted as "they were identical." I don't think this is all that convincing, to be honest.

When I come home and have access to my library, I will give you Gleb Botkin's description.

 

[Elspeth]

And I was talking about congenital bilateral Hallux Valgus. Also, it was more developed in the right foot than the left on both AA and AN.

I was also talking about congenital bilateral hallux valgus. I was saying that in the link you gave, they said that this condition was rare in infants, not that it was rare in general. In my previous post I was also asking for some numbers to show the rarity of this condition, as well as for links to the sources giving the statistics.

How rare is it for this condition to be differential from one foot to the other? Do we know the angles of the deformity for either Anastasia or Anna Anderson?

 

[ChatNoir]

And I was talking about congenital bilateral Hallux Valgus. Also, it was more developed in the right foot than the left on both AA and AN.


I was also talking about congenital bilateral hallux valgus. I was saying that in the link you gave, they said that this condition was rare in infants, not that it was rare.

Now I am confused. I always thought "congenital" means "present from birth". Then again, English is not my first language, but if congenital means what I think it means, then infants should be the ones to have congenital hallux valgus. And according to Dr. Rudnev, AA's case was so severe "that it could only have been present from birth." Pictures of AN as a child show hallux valgus on her visible naked right foot.

As for the angles, there is no information here whatsoever.

 

[Elspeth]

I think congenital has more of a meaning of "innate" rather than "present from birth." A congenital defect can make itself known later in life, but its defining factor is that it doesn't have an external cause, or at least a known external cause.

I'll try and post a bit more later, but I need to shut the computer down because we're in the middle of a rather severe thunderstorm and the power is going a bit weird.

 

[ChatNoir]

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

1 a: existing at or dating from birth <congenital deafness> b: constituting an essential characteristic : inherent <congenital fear of snakes> c: acquired during development in the uterus and not through heredity <congenital syphilis>2: being such by nature <a congenital liar>

 

[Anna was Franziska]

More speculation.

What do you call your idea about what "MIGHT" have happened to the intestines and the hair? You don't even have any guesses, only that it had to have happened because you want AA to be AN.

But really, the late report of FS being missing does not mean she was 'in two places at once.' The trial went on for three decades, they didn't think that, it wasn't true. And remember, the DNA did match (as well as the face) Ernie's detective was right.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I was also talking about congenital bilateral hallux valgus. I was saying that in the link you gave, they said that this condition was rare in infants, not that it was rare in general. In my previous post I was also asking for some numbers to show the rarity of this condition, as well as for links to the sources giving the statistics.

How rare is it for this condition to be differential from one foot to the other? Do we know the angles of the deformity for either Anastasia or Anna Anderson?

Shura saying she had it in the Kurth book is the first I ever heard of AN having it. It's not mentioned in any of the books or diaries or eyewitness accounts by those who knew the family. There are plenty of reports of Anastasia being a tomboy, climbing trees and jumping, and pictures of her playing tennis. I really don't think her feet were so bad or bothered her all that much.

 

[ChatNoir]

What do you call your idea about what "MIGHT" have happened to the intestines and the hair? You don't even have any guesses, only that it had to have happened because you want AA to be AN.

As I said, I will not speculate. And I don't want AA to be anybody, I just find the mystery fascinating.

But really, the late report of FS being missing does not mean she was 'in two places at once.' The trial went on for three decades, they didn't think that, it wasn't true. And remember, the DNA did match (as well as the face) Ernie's detective was right.

What does the lenght of the trial have to do with the late report of FS missing?

 

[ChatNoir]

Shura saying she had it in the Kurth book is the first I ever heard of AN having it. It's not mentioned in any of the books or diaries or eyewitness accounts by those who knew the family. There are plenty of reports of Anastasia being a tomboy, climbing trees and jumping, and pictures of her playing tennis. I really don't think her feet were so bad or bothered her all that much.

Harriet Rathlef Keilmann told in her book that Shura confirmed the likeness of the feet: "With the Grand Duchess it was the same, the right foot was worse than the left." If you look at PeterKurth.com, you will see a photo of AA where the affliction is clearly showing. Also see this photo here from tennis, why do you think AN is wearing sandals instead of tennis shoes? (Of course, this does not prove anything.)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

As I said, I will not speculate. And I don't want AA to be anybody, I just find the mystery fascinating.

But there is no mystery, you're just making one up. The sample was labeled as hers, and there is no reason to believe it wasn't.

What does the lenght of the trial have to do with the late report of FS missing?

Because surely if she really had been 'in two places at once' it would have been proven in all that time, and even in the 60's the judges still said she was 'eminently likely' to be FS. There's really no proof of it because AA and FS were the same person. She was in the asylum on Feb. 20 but she was not officially reported missing until March 9. This really doesn't change a thing.

 

[ChatNoir]

But there is no mystery, you're just making one up. The sample was labeled as hers, and there is no reason to believe it wasn't.

If there is no mystery, what are you doing here? You would be at peace with the solution and not waste time on crazy people like me.

Because surely if she really had been 'in two places at once' it would have been proven in all that time, and even in the 60's the judges still said she was 'eminently likely' to be FS. There's really no proof of it because AA and FS were the same person. She was in the asylum on Feb. 20 but she was not officially reported missing until March 9. This really doesn't change a thing.

She was not in the asylum on Feb. 20, but at the Elisabeth Hospital in Lützowstrasse. And she was rescued 3 days before that. Maybe you remember the final trial, where la Wingender ran away from the court room and the whole FS story was more or less laid to rest. As the last judge said: I could just as well have ruled in her favor......

 

[ChatNoir]

Again, did anybody say likeness?

 

[Elspeth]

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

1 a: existing at or dating from birth <congenital deafness> b: constituting an essential characteristic : inherent <congenital fear of snakes> c: acquired during development in the uterus and not through heredity <congenital syphilis>2: being such by nature <a congenital liar>

Yes, it has a number of meanings, and "dating from birth" isn't the only one. However, if it's used in this particular case to refer to bunions that have been present since early childhood, then that's fine.

One thing I'm not seeing in any of the descriptions of hallux valgus is a way to tell when an existing case first became symptomatic. According to the Mayo Clinic website, "bunions can develop at any time during childhood or adulthood and are permanent unless surgically corrected." Obviously this means that they're more common in adults than in children, but I haven't managed to find anything about how to tell how long a person with bunions has had them.

How were Anna Anderson's doctors able to determine that her bunions had been present all her life?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Again, did anybody say likeness?

This picture is especially bad! That's the one where she's biting her lips hard and hiding part of her face with the boa to conceal how much she DOESN'T look like AN! Talk about glamour shots makeover from that mugshot!(below left)

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/lipbyte.jpg

Hide those lips, Franziska! You can see the drastic difference in the way she appears in pictures after her claim picked up fame and she was brought to the US by Gleb. She certainly seems coached and posed.(above right)

A closeup of your 'boa' pic showing how hard she's biting those lips, compared with what her lips really looked like:

Did somebody say likeness?
FS and AA

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes, it has a number of meanings, and "dating from birth" isn't the only one. However, if it's used in this particular case to refer to bunions that have been present since early childhood, then that's fine.

One thing I'm not seeing in any of the descriptions of hallux valgus is a way to tell when an existing case first became symptomatic. According to the Mayo Clinic website, "bunions can develop at any time during childhood or adulthood and are permanent unless surgically corrected." Obviously this means that they're more common in adults than in children, but I haven't managed to find anything about how to tell how long a person with bunions has had them.

How were Anna Anderson's doctors able to determine that her bunions had been present all her life?

All I have here, is professor Rudnev's statement that because of the severety of the bunions, they had to have been present from birth. I'll look it up later, right now it is home to a cold martini and a warm dinner.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

If there is no mystery, what are you doing here? You would be at peace with the solution and not waste time on crazy people like me.

No I'm trying to stop you from misleading people. Earlier in this thread, you had a buyer for your 'two places at once' theory which IS NOT true. It's easy to drop little tidbits that aren't proven and get a bite now and then but it's not right so I have to tell the other side. My crusade is to finally put this old story to rest for truth in history. If you want fairy tales try the Brothers Grimm.

She was not in the asylum on Feb. 20, but at the Elisabeth Hospital in Lützowstrasse. And she was rescued 3 days before that.

She was still 'put away.'

Maybe you remember the final trial, where la Wingender ran away from the court room and the whole FS story was more or less laid to rest.

Obviously, the "FS story" was NOT laid to rest because it came up again in every trial, and in the 1961 verdict the judge said her id as FS was likely. The FS story was still not 'put to rest' in 1994 when scientists bothered to obtain a sample of blood from a member of FS's family and it matched. She's been suspected to be FS since the 20's, the DNA just proved it. Even today, stories from major news services about the Romanovs will say 'a woman named AA claimed to be AN but DNA tests proved her to be FS, a Polish factory worker.' Seems AA= FS is fairly common knowledge except in your realm.

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

Likeness? They both have freaky eyes.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

All I have here, is professor Rudnev's statement that because of the severety of the bunions, they had to have been present from birth. I'll look it up later, right now it is home to a cold martini and a warm dinner.

I find his diagnosis suspect due to the fact he was a big supporter of her claim.