Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Elspeth]

All I say is that for me science and scientifical results are not sacrosanct. We've had too many cases lately when it turned out that scientifically published results were not able to stand closer scrutiny, for whatever reasons. So for me considering the many, many more open questions in this story and the fact that the scientists themselves imply only a high plausibility, but not 100% security all lead to my personal opinion that I'm not convinced their results are necessarily the truth and nothing but the truth. I don't think the scientists faked anything in order to commit fraud but there is not a 100% security that they didn't considering the circumstances and human nature as it is. Maybe you are willing to stand in with your life for these results, but I'm not and all I did was explaining why this is so.

As I have already said, I know scientists sometimes get things wrong and it occasionally happens deliberately.

But: what you do is taking one argument (and I still find that a valid argument among many others) and use it as a weapon against me personally, implying that because I'm personally not convinced of the results in general, I try to slander scientists. This is a very unfair and hurtful approach to another poster's opinion and one I feel is especially painful and distressing as it comes from a member with an official controlling function within this forum.

Had you been more inclined to acknowledge the possibility that the scientists were ethical people reporting actual results, I would have been less inclined to conclude that you were trying to imply that they weren't. From the point of view of someone trained in the sciences and with some experience dealing with reports of scientific studies, I'm not seeing anything in this particular paper that would raise red flags about misconduct or overinterpretation of results, with the possible exception of the fact that they were using a very new technique on elderly samples. The techniques they were using, including the techniques to prevent contamination (a major problem in PCR analyses) seem to be pretty standard. Doesn't mean there wasn't some collusion going on, but from what we're able to see, there's no evidence for it. Which means that the possibility that they were mistaken, overinterpreting, or downright fraudulent should be presented in the context of the possibility that they weren't. Which, as far as I can see, your post didn't do, and which is the source of my problem with it.

To address your last point - when I'm acting as a member of the moderation team, you'll see my posts in bold type. All the rest of the time, I'm just another poster.

So - and now you've got what you aimed at all along with your very personal attacks: I won't write about that topic anymore, so you can go on enjoying this thread with your secure knowledge that as DNA has solved the riddle once and for all, there is no need for discussion anymore. I call that censorship of the ugliest kind! Good morning from Germany.

For someone complaining about personal attacks, the only thing I can say about this is "pot, kettle, black."

 

[ChatNoir]

Does it matter the official name for her living circumstances? The point is, she wasn't reported missing immediately. Even if the brother got the letter, can you prove when it was mailed? Personally I have thought (and this is just my theory, not trying to tout it as fact) that she mailed the card before she jumped into the canal, planning for it to come after she was dead to guilt trip him for something. We don't know the whole story of why FS/AA tried to kill herself.)

Yes, her living circumstances do matter a great deal. According to Mrs. Wingender (see Hamburg testimony) she watched over FS like a mother. Even 9 years later she remembered how she was dressed that night she disappeared. (!)
Your post is again pure speculation.

Yes, AA's lawyers, who were desperate to come up with anything to wish away FS and give doubt, AA's lawyers who were working for a woman who was a fake, and had to concoct a fake story (not necessarily accusing lawyers of fraud, just AA and some of her supporters) AA supporters like to accuse her opponents of doing dishonest things for money, but it's more likely that some of her backers did, since they believed a big payoff would be coming later if she won.

And WHO was waiting for this big payoff? You better have some names ready.

Oh come on, Chat, if this were true, why wasn't it investigated, or maybe it was and proven bogus? There's no way that was FS, because she was AA.

Like the false photots of FS, this was also passed over in complete silence by the Hamburg judges.

The biggest self defeating thing about this is- Did you ever also consider why no one spoke up to say "HEY LOOK IT'S GRAND DUCHESS ANASTASIA!!" After all Anastasia was a lot more famous!

Yes, but she had no schoolmates, very few friends, and very few people saw her from the outbreak of WWI. The IF lived a very secluded life.

The reason was because she wasn't Anastasia, and FS wasn't famous,(and didn't stick out enough in anyone's mind) and the picture circulated wasn't a good one and didn't look much like her so no one could be sure. Also consider the times, there was no mass media, it's not like she was all over the TV and internet. Probably only a fraction of the population saw the pictures in papers or police stations and among those, many didn't pay attention, or didn't connect her with a little known factory worker they may have seen before.

So FS did not stick out in anyone's mind? Well, AA sure did. She must have changed a lot. And the picture of her was still good enough to alert the nurses in the hospital.

I meant the newly found bodies ITAR-TASS

That still remains to be seen.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes, her living circumstances do matter a great deal. According to Mrs. Wingender (see Hamburg testimony) she watched over FS like a mother. Even 9 years later she remembered how she was dressed that night she disappeared. (!)

1. Then why didn't they report her missing?

2. They did identify AA as being FS.

"The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" Robert K. Massie, pages 178-179 softback:

Doris Wingender said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920. Over two years later, during the summer of 1922, Doris reported, Franziska had suddenly returned and said that she had been living with a number of Russian monarchist families "who apparently mistook her for someone else." Franziska had stayed for three days, Doris continued, and while she was there, the two women had exchanged clothing: Franziska took from Doris a dark blue suit....she handed over a mauve dress, some monogrammed underwear, and a camel's hair coat. Then, once again, Franzkisa vanished.

To verify the story ,the newspaper hired a detective, Martin Knopf, who took the clothing Franziska had left behind at the Wingenders' to one of the Russian emigre households where Fraulein U. had stayed in 1922. Baron and Baroness von Kleist recognized it. "I bought the camel's hair myself." said the baron, "That's the underwear I monogrammed myself" cried the baroness. For the benefit of the newspapers, the "Riddle of Anastasia" was solved.

page 180, account of a writer for the paper:

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.

And WHO was waiting for this big payoff? You better have some names ready.

Obviously, AA and her supporters. Who leaves a paper trail of fraud? You're never going to uncover a diary reading 'today I helped AA commit fraud, today I fed AA memories.' But we know, since AA was not AN, that these things happened.

Like the false photots of FS, this was also passed over in complete silence by the Hamburg judges.

In 1965, after nearly 30 years of trials, her case ended with no conclusion one way or the other, officially. However, in 1965 a triumvirate of judges did declare that 'her identification as FS was imminently likely." Cleary, no one in the courts ever believed AA and FS were accounted for at the same time, because didn't happen.

Yes, but she had no schoolmates, very few friends, and very few people saw her from the outbreak of WWI. The IF lived a very secluded life.

YES! This is why it was so easy for AA to fool people, so few people who survived knew the real Anastasia well, (and those who did denied AA.} This played right into the hands of AA and her charade. It was easier for her to pass herself off to a bunch of homesick emigres (or American socialites who wouldn't have known AN from Greta Garbo) as a generic Grand Duchess as opposed to ANASTASIA in particular. Think about some of the alleged 'endorsements'- 'she had Nicky's eyes'...'she waved good bye like the Empress..'she carried herself like a true lady of breeding..' that kind of thing. Had AN gone to school and not been so secluded, there would have been many valuable witnesses and the case wouldn't have gone so far.

That still remains to be seen.

What's it going to take?

So FS did not stick out in anyone's mind? Well, AA sure did. She must have changed a lot.

She wasn't well know. The pic didn't look much like her.

 

[NotAPretender]

A bit of a contradiction

A thing that I have always wondered about, is that after the photos of AA circulated throught the press all over the world, nobody ever came forward to identify her as FS. No friends, co-workers, doctors, nurses, teachers, family, in short, nobody.

And then let's look at this statement (referring to the IF

Yes, but she had no schoolmates, very few friends, and very few people saw her from the outbreak of WWI. The IF lived a very secluded life.

Somehow, the family/friends of the insignificant FS was supposed to be poring over newspapers for a picture of their loved one to ID her, whereas the family/friends of the well-photographed and highly significant Grand Duchess were not noticed because the IF lived a "very secluded life."

This is just getting really strange. And it makes no sense at all.

Besides which...that photo was hideously retouched. It's so badly altered that it could be anybody, and anybody's mother would not have been able to ID her from that pic.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

...implying that because I'm personally not convinced of the results in general, I try to slander scientists. This is a very unfair and hurtful approach to another poster's opinion and one I feel is especially painful and distressing ....

I won't write about that topic anymore, so you can go on enjoying this thread with your secure knowledge that as DNA has solved the riddle once and for all, there is no need for discussion anymore. I call that censorship of the ugliest kind!

I wanted to address this, and of course if I'm out of line a mod can delete this post.

When something has been proven wrong, it's no longer an opinion, it's an incorrect piece of information. If the proof it is wrong is challenged, (DNA) then there needs to be hard evidence or at least some kind of legitimate lead for the allegations, but I don't see this happening. Everyone I have seen on this board and others who deny the DNA accuracy seem to only be doing it because they don't want the AA/AN mystery to end for whatever reason, therefore they don't want to believe it's over and the answer is not the one they had hoped for. That is all there is, no proof or valid information as to why it's wrong is ever offered, just that it must be wrong, because AA just had to be AN.

This, sadly, leaves the realm of reality and enters the world of some sort of fan fiction. I don't know if any or all of you have ever heard of it, but there's a very large community of fan writers out there who are unhappy with the way a show or movie ended, and rewrite it, or write a different ending. Many fans love to read this and to write it and share it. However, it's all fantasy and for fun, and most often involving fictional characters (such as "Star Wars" or "Lost.") However, the story of the Romanovs, AA and FS are not a movie, they were real people, and making up hypothetical different endings for them passed off as possible truth is a disservice to history, as well as science. So if people want to make up ficitional alternate endings as to what 'might' have happened, or what they would prefer had happened, and share them with friends that way, that's okay as long as everyone is aware it's ficticious. But presenting these theories as supposedly realistic possible alternatives to the actual ending (Romanovs all died, DNA proved AA was not AN) isn't right, especially when the speculation makes harsh accusations of fraud with absolutely no factual basis against real people and labs involved. This is where it crosses the line and becomes no longer harmless.

On another message board I go to, the admin put an end to such commentary this way- either present proof of your accusations against the Queen, scientists, labs, etc., or stop it. This did stop it, and yes, some did whine about 'censorship', but it was the right thing for the board to do. It's not right to drag the names and professional reputations of real people and businesses through the mud just because you don't like their results. I hope everyone can see what I'm trying to say here. The burden of proof is not on the labs, it's on those who challenge the results, and if they can't prove them wrong, they're not wrong and the accusations need to stop.

Good morning from Germany.

Being in Germany, you are at an advantage over most of us! You have access to most of the files from the AA case over the years, the trial, the newspapers, all of it. You should go to Berlin and Darmstadt and see just what they have on the AA case and FS, and maybe you'll discover for yourself that she was FS after all and be able to let go of the sensationalistic version of the story. If you do research on your own, please let us know what you find.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

This is just getting really strange. And it makes no sense at all.

Exactly. Berlin had over a half million Russian emigres' in those days, and the royal family's pictures were very well known to them. Also, they'd have had more access to newspapers and magazines than FS's poor relations and coworkers. That's why I said his statement was so self defeating to his cause, nobody was saying 'hey look there's Anastasia'!

Besides which...that photo was hideously retouched. It's so badly altered that it could be anybody, and anybody's mother would not have been able to ID her from that pic.

That's true, it makes me wonder why that one was chosen. Maybe she didn't want to be found!

FS obviously didn't want to be found, at least not as FS. This is why she was silent in the asylum and never gave her name or asked for any friends or family the first 2 years she was there. Then she lucked into getting a new life as a 'Grand Duchess'!

 

[ChatNoir]

1. Then why didn't they report her missing?

They DID report her missing. On March 9th, 1920

2. They did identify AA as being FS.

Yes, for the nice sum of 1,500 DM.

"The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" Robert K. Massie, pages 178-179 softback:

Doris Wingender said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920.

Correct, her disappearance was in March, AA was found in February.

Over two years later, during the summer of 1922, Doris reported, Franziska had suddenly returned and said that she had been living with a number of Russian monarchist families "who apparently mistook her for someone else." Franziska had stayed for three days, Doris continued, and while she was there, the two women had exchanged clothing: Franziska took from Doris a dark blue suit....she handed over a mauve dress, some monogrammed underwear, and a camel's hair coat. Then, once again, Franzkisa vanished.

To verify the story ,the newspaper hired a detective, Martin Knopf, who took the clothing Franziska had left behind at the Wingenders' to one of the Russian emigre households where Fraulein U. had stayed in 1922. Baron and Baroness von Kleist recognized it. "I bought the camel's hair myself." said the baron, "That's the underwear I monogrammed myself" cried the baroness. For the benefit of the newspapers, the "Riddle of Anastasia" was solved.

Yes, FS stayed for three days IN SPRING according to Doris Wingender, who told this to Mrs. Grabisch. AA disappeared from the Kleist's in August and stayed at Clara Peuthert's. Something Mrs. Kleist was aware of, and she sent the police to Clara's in order to get AA back, but Clara denied that she was there. The police assumed she was lying, but did not search the house, and Clara later testified to the fact that AA had indeed been staying there. Martin Knopf (who was not hired by the newspaper, but by Grand Duke Ernest) told Doris Wingender that the FS encounter had to have been in August, so they compromised and said "summer". According to Knopf, the Kleists identified the clothing that presumably came from AA, and then this very important proof conveniently disappeared. Doris Wingender produced a photo in court showing her in a suit later worn by AA in another photo. Upon examination, the suits turned out to be only not identical, but one had belt and buttons drawn in after the fact in order to heighten the resemblance.

page 180, account of a writer for the paper:

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.

National Enquirer journalism, anyone? The Duke of Leuchtenberg, who was present as a witness, has a different story to tell. First of all, he had prepared AA for a meeting with old friends. When Doris Wingender entered the room, AA did not recognize her, and said politely in her hapless German: Please, that must go out. Doris just stood there, not saying a word, not a single: Hi, Franzisca, remember me? AA repeated her words, and Doris turned on her heels and left the room. "It was very clear to me that the two ladies had never met before", said the Duke. A greeting from the Schanzkowsky family delivered by Lucke was received in total bewilderment.

Obviously, AA and her supporters. Who leaves a paper trail of fraud? You're never going to uncover a diary reading 'today I helped AA commit fraud, today I fed AA memories.' But we know, since AA was not AN, that these things happened.

And as usual, you can not deliver anything else than speculations.

In 1965, after nearly 30 years of trials, her case ended with no conclusion one way or the other, officially. However, in 1965 a triumvirate of judges did declare that 'her identification as FS was imminently likely." Cleary, no one in the courts ever believed AA and FS were accounted for at the same time, because didn't happen.

The verdict was that the client was defeated in her claim.

YES! This is why it was so easy for AA to fool people, so few people who survived knew the real Anastasia well, (and those who did denied AA.}

They did? Tell that to the Botkin siblings, Alexis Volkov, Shura, Lili Dehn, Xenia Leeds, Zinaida Tolstoy etc etc.

This played right into the hands of AA and her charade. It was easier for her to pass herself off to a bunch of homesick emigres (or American socialites who wouldn't have known AN from Greta Garbo) as a generic Grand Duchess as opposed to ANASTASIA in particular. Think about some of the alleged 'endorsements'- 'she had Nicky's eyes'...'she waved good bye like the Empress..'she carried herself like a true lady of breeding..' that kind of thing. Had AN gone to school and not been so secluded, there would have been many valuable witnesses and the case wouldn't have gone so far.

The problem here is: She never passed herself off to anybody, she always tried to keep her identity a secret.

She wasn't well know. The pic didn't look much like her.

Why do you keep hauling out that ridiculous drawing?

 

[ChatNoir]

Exactly. Berlin had over a half million Russian emigres' in those days, and the royal family's pictures were very well known to them. Also, they'd have had more access to newspapers and magazines than FS's poor relations and coworkers. That's why I said his statement was so self defeating to his cause, nobody was saying 'hey look there's Anastasia'!

Yes, the IF pictures were well known. Touched up, beautiful court pictures. The Romanov albums were at this time not available online.

The perfect Anastasia:

The non-retouched Anastasia and Anna Anderson:

That's true, it makes me wonder why that one was chosen. Maybe she didn't want to be found!

Chosen by whom?

FS obviously didn't want to be found, at least not as FS. This is why she was silent in the asylum and never gave her name or asked for any friends or family the first 2 years she was there. Then she lucked into getting a new life as a 'Grand Duchess'!

The problem is, she wasn't silent in the asylum, she confessed to the nurses that she was Anastasia.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes, the IF pictures were well known. Touched up, beautiful court pictures. The Romanov albums were at this time not available online.

Chat, no matter what, nothing is going to change that small mouth and thin lips on AN to the wide mouth and large, fleshy Angelina Jolie lips AA had, or cut off the bottom of AN's long rounded chin to be like the short flat chin AA/FS had.

The problem is, she wasn't silent in the asylum, she confessed to the nurses that she was Anastasia.

Chat, I am not going through this with you again. There is one alleged statement by one person who couldn't even get the date right. I don't believe it ever happened. AA/FS never got the idea to pretend to be any Grand Duchess until the other mental patient said she looked like Tatiana. This is all well documented and discussed ad nauseum, let's not do another dog chasing his tail and clog this forum up, too.

 

[ChatNoir]

Chat, no matter what, nothing is going to change that small mouth and thin lips on AN to the wide mouth and large, fleshy Angelina Jolie lips AA had, or cut off the bottom of AN's long rounded chin to be like the short flat chin AA/FS had.

As you can see in the pictures, her lips healed and the swelling went down. Their chins seem identical to me. And according to Professors Eyckstedt, Klenke, Reche and Furtmayr, their faces were identical. Not to mention Gleb Botkin and Tatiana Botkin who recognized her instantly.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia1916-1976.jpg

Chat, I am not going through this with you again. There is one alleged statement by one person who couldn't even get the date right. I don't believe it ever happened. AA/FS never got the idea to pretend to be any Grand Duchess until the other mental patient said she looked like Tatiana. This is all well documented and discussed ad nauseum, let's not do another dog chasing his tail and clog this forum up, too.

Not alleged statement, but an affidavit in the court of Hamburg. And not only one, Dr. Chemnitz also testified to the same incident. And again: It was the Nachtausgabe who got the date wrong, therefore the letter from Thea Malinovsky to Kurt Pastenaci complaining about the mistake. And again, remember: In fall of 1922, AA was far away from Dalldorf, and it would have been impossible for Thea Malinovsky to get any information from her.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

In the photos ChatNoir, posted I notice a huge difference between AA and Anastasia's lips. Anastasia's nose is very skinny and AA's nose is out of shape. AA did not have any bangs, but Anastasia did!

AA/FS never got the idea to pretend to be any Grand Duchess until the other mental patient said she looked like Tatiana.

Yes, she pretended to be Tatiana first, then someone told her she's too short to be her. So, then she started her claim to be Anastasia.

As you can see in the pictures, her lips healed and the swelling went down. Their chins seem identical to me. And according to Professors Eyckstedt, Klenke, Reche and Furtmayr, their faces were identical. Not to mention Gleb Botkin and Tatiana Botkin who recognized her instantly.

And... you are forgetting about Aunt Olga, Irene, Felix,Sophie and Gilliard. They knew the real Anastasia better than the Botkins and some scientists. They stated that AA couldn't be Anastasia. AA's nose stil looks big to me in that photo. It looks like she is biting her lips to make them appear smaller like Anastasia's.

 

[ChatNoir]

In the photos ChatNoir, posted I notice a huge difference between AA and Anastasia's lips. Anastasia's nose is very skinny and AA's nose is out of shape. AA did not have any bangs, but Anastasia did!

A difference, yes, definitely. I guess that's what happens when you receive such a heavy blow to your face that the upper jaw is fractured and you have a scar right through your upper lip. (Testimony from Malinovsky and Rathlef-Keilmann.) Anastasia stopped wearing bangs in Tobolsk.

Yes, she pretended to be Tatiana first, then someone told her she's too short ot be her. So, then she started her claim to be Anastasia.

And your sources are?

And... you are forgetting about Aunt Olga, Irene, Felix,Sophie and Gilliard. They knew the real Anastasia better than the Botkins. They stated that AA couldn't be Anastasia. AA's nose stil looks big to me in that photo. It looks like she is biting her lips to make them appear smaller like Anastasia's.

No, I am not forgetting about anybody. Aunt Olga was the one who said: My heart tells me that she is Anastasia. Irene was the one who said: She is like her, she is like her. Sophie never wavered in her negative verdict, and Gilliard believed in her until the end of January 1927 when he abruptly changed his position, without ever having seen AA again.
They knew AA better than the Botkins? How do you know that?
And this "lip-biting" business is pure fiction. But we all know where it comes from.....

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

{ed. - Elspeth}

A difference, yes, definitely. I guess that's what happens when you receive such a heavy blow to your face that the upper jaw is fractured and you have a scar right through your upper lip. (Testimony from Malinovsky and Rathlef-Keilmann.) Anastasia stopped wearing bangs in Tobolsk.

No, Anastasia had bangs in a photo of her in 1918. Haven't you seen this photo of Anastaisa knitting? In 1918!

And your sources are?

We have went over with this so many times. I told you before that Sophie said that in her memoir and letters, she stated that!

No, I am not forgetting about anybody. Aunt Olga was the one who said: My heart tells me that she is Anastasia. Irene was the one who said: She is like her, she is like her. Sophie never wavered in her negative verdict, and Gilliard believed in her until the end of January 1927 when he abruptly changed his position, without ever having seen AA again.

They knew AA better than the Botkins? How do you know that?
And this "lip-biting" business is pure fiction. But we all know where it comes from.....

And...that's not the point. The point is that they all didn't believe that AA was her. You're only trying to make it seem like they said it was her. You know they said that AA wasn't Anastasia. Stop it! They knew AA better than the botkins because they wre her family members, haven't you seen the photos they have took together with OTMA? Tatiana Botkin was a daughter of Gleb Botkin (imperial family servant).

Yes, and do you also remember who ripped the stories on that side to shreds?
Anyway, please get back on topic, this is not the place for a personal vendetta

No, she is just saying why don't you go read the information she has on her website. You're on'y ignoring her website. She's tired of arguing with you, and so am I over the same thing. All the information is on Anna's website. Just go there and read it. It's very interesting.

 

[ChatNoir]

{ed. - Elspeth}

No, Anastasia had bangs in a photo of her in 1918. Haven't you seen this photo of Anastaisa knitting?

Yes, and it is impossible to see what exact hairstyle she has because of the photo's angle. Witnesses who saw her in Tobolsk, stated that she wore her hair the same way as she did in Berlin. (Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann.)

We have went over with this so many times. I told you before that Sophie said that in her memoir.

How would Sophie know, she was not employed at the asylum.

And...that's not the point. The point is that they all didn't believe that AA was her.

No, not all believed.

No, she is just saying why don't you go read the information she has on her website. She's tired of arguing with you over the same thing. All the information is on Anna's website.

Her website contains very little information and a lot of speculation, but I don't think this is the place for a discussion of it.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

{ed. - Elspeth}

Yes, and it is impossible to see what exact hairstyle she has because of the photo's angle. Witnesses who saw her in Tobolsk, stated that she wore her hair the same way as she did in Berlin. (Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann.)

And...how did AA wear her hair in Berlin? I'm quite sure the hairstyle she wore looked different because her headline is a different shape.

How would Sophie know, she was not employed at the asylum.

Sophie came to the hospital to see if she could identify the woman. She did say she only resemble Tatiana by one thing. But, the rest of her comparison says that nose, lips,mouth and chin didn't look like Tatiana's. Her fingers were too long.

The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna, resemblance that disappeared, nevertheless, as soon as her face was not covered. I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess. The hair was lighter in color, some of her teeth were missing-and the remaining ones were not like those of the Grand Duchess...Her hands were also completely different, the fingers were longer and the nails narrower.


Then she said this after AA went from Tatiana to Anastasia:
I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

No, not all believed.

Not, all of who? Tell me who are you talking about? Well, some did accept AA, but they aren't the people who knew Anastasia and seen her as often.

Her website contains very little information and a lot of speculation, but I don't think this is the place for a discussion of it.

Well, I thought it had great information on her website. She has resources from Gilliard, Robert K. Massie, Sophie, and Gibbes the people who denied AA. She also explains the people such as Anya V, Tatiana Botkin and others who accepted AA's claim. Her website was full of facts explaining how the DNA tests were done, and why people are denying the DNA. You can't barely prove most of Annie's information wrong. I have notice some of the information you're using, you haven't proved it.

 

[ChatNoir]

{ed. - Elspeth}

And...how did AA wear her hair in Berlin? I'm quite sure the hairstyle she wore looked different because her headline is a different shape.

See photos.

Sophie came to the hospital to see if she could identify the woman. She did say she only resemble Tatiana by one thing. But, the rest of her comparison says that nose, lips,mouth and chin didn't look like Tatiana's. Her fingers were too long.

The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna, resemblance that disappeared, nevertheless, as soon as her face was not covered. I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess. The hair was lighter in color, some of her teeth were missing-and the remaining ones were not like those of the Grand Duchess...Her hands were also completely different, the fingers were longer and the nails narrower.


Then she said this after AA went from Tatiana to Anastasia:
I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

Apparently she did not check on the bilateral Hallux Valgus and the various scars. And she does not mention the eyes either. And AA's hands were completely different? She remembered the exact shape of her hands after more than 4 years? Especially when the patient had lost a lot of weight and was no longer the chubby little girl she last saw on the Rus. Well, it is a testimony against AA, no doubt about that.

Not, all of who? Tell me who are you talking about? Well, some did accept AA, but they aren't the people who knew Anastasia and seen her as often.

I have already given you the names in an earlier post.

Well, I thought it had great information on her website. She has resources from Gilliard, Robert K. Massie, Sophie, and Gibbes the people who denied AA.

What about info from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, Gleb Botkin, Xenia Leeds, Herluf Zahle?

She also explains the people such as Anya V, Tatiana Botkin and others who accepted AA's claim.

No, she does not explain, she speculates.

Her website was full of facts explaining how the DNA tests were done, and why people are denying the DNA. You can't barely prove most of Annie's information wrong. I have notice some of the information you're using, you haven't proved it.

And that would be what information?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Thanks Anastasia evidence. It's evident he's never going to stop believing no matter what, but it's not right to try to mislead other people. Chat, you need to understand that just because a person said something, and you can quote it on page X, that doesn't necessarily make it a 'fact.' Some if them may have been lying, or mistaken. There are just as many quotes on the 'other side' contradicting everything you say. Who's right and who was wrong? The DNA has answered this question. AA = FS not AN.

 

[ChatNoir]

Listen, I would appreciate if you and Anastasia Evidence could bring some more information to this site than just relentlessly attack me. You know how very, very little I care about your personal opinions. And so far, the DNA has obviously not answered the question, or we would have had a legal ruling long time ago

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Oh, I understand that aspect, Anna. I agree, it isn't right to mislead people into believing AA is A, especially if he doesn't have proof. Not, too many people will believe BlackCat's anyway. Herefuses to except the DNA. That's one fact he can never prove wrong- DNA.

Listen, I would appreciate if you and Anastasia Evidence could bring some more information to this site than just relentlessly attack me. You know how very, very little I care about your personal opinions. And so far, the DNA has obviously not answered the question, or we would have had a legal ruling long time ago

Personal opinions? We have information with facts explaining how, and why Anastasia wasn't Anna Anderson. It's just not right going over the same thing, again. DNA did answer the question, you sure can't prove that wrong. And...your information isn't really proven to be a fact, more of a speculation. At least, our information is proven!

What about info from Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, Gleb Botkin, Xenia Leeds, Herluf Zahle?

Their opinions aren't really relevant, because they didn't know Anastasia as well as Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Irene, Gilliard, Gibbes, Felix Yussopov, or Sophie B. You don't include them, because they don't believe Anastasia was Anna Anderson. Don't you notice the obvious fact that AA never knew any French or Russian, therefore she CAN'T be Anastasia.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

AA = FS not AN

 

[ChatNoir]

Oh, I understand that aspect, Anna. I agree, it isn't right to mislead people into believing AA is A, especially if he doesn't have proof. Not, too many people will believe BlackCat's anyway. Herefuses to except the DNA. That's one fact he can never prove wrong- DNA.

I think most people on this board are intelligent enough to make their own conclusions.

Personal opinions? We have information with facts explaining how, and why Anastasia wasn't Anna Anderson. It's just not right going over the same thing, again. DNA did answer the question, you sure can't prove that wrong. And...your information isn't really proven to be a fact, more of a speculation. At least, our information is proven!

Proven? Where?

Their opinions aren't really revelant, because they didn't know Anastasia as well as Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Irene, Gilliard, Gibbes, Felix Yussopov, or Sophie B. You don't include them, because they don't believe Anastasia was Anna Anderson. Don't you notice the obvious fact that AA never knew any French or Russian, therefore she CAN'T be Anastasia.

Everybody's opinion is relevant, but some have been found to be blatant lies. And I have already told you about all the people who testified to the fact that AA spoke fluent Russian and at least some French.

 

[ChatNoir]

AA = FS not AN

If that was an established fact, we would not have had this discussion.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

AA = FS not AN

Oh,when will this ever end? This is the main point of course! This discussion should be locked!

I think most people on this board are intelligent enough to make their own conclusions.

Yes, but you should also explain, why you believe in what you think!

Everybody's opinion is relevant, but some have been found to be blatant lies. And I have already told you about all the people who testified to the fact that AA spoke fluent Russian and at least some French.

Prove, this to me, then? I haven't seen you do it.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

For goodness sake, you all are killing the horse! It's only you, BlackCat who chooses not to believe in DNA.

 

[ChatNoir]

For goodness sake, you all are killing the horse!

I thougth the horse was dead already???!

 

[Anna was Franziska]

As far as I can see, you may end it right here if you so choose.

Yes, it can. Come with me, accept reality. AA = FS. Let it go.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, it can. Come with me, accept reality. AA = FS. Let it go.

Please??? It would be so great!

Chat (heavy breathing) come to the DARK SIDE. . . .I am your father. . . .

Whatever! You haven't even gave us any evidence or proof.

 

[ChatNoir]

Oh,when will this ever end? This is the main point of course! This discussion should be locked!

No, the discussion should not be locked, it should continue in a professional manner without accusations and innuendos.

Yes, but you should also explain, why you believe in what you think!

I have no responsibility to explain to anybody what I think or not. All I want, is to get the information out there from the people who were present when history was made. It is downright scary when I see how little the general public really know about AA and her story.

Prove, this to me, then?

I haven't seen you do it.

Ok, here we go. In the protocols at Dalldorf, it is noted that AA spoke Russian with the nurses there. One of the them, Erna Bucholtz, a language teacher from Lubau, who had lived in Russia, testified that AA spoke Russian like a native, using whole, unimpeded sentences, and not like someone who had learned it later in life. The doctor who examined AA at the Kleist's, said that "she speaks Russian in her sleep, with good pronunciation, but mostly about unimportant things." At the Mommsen Clinic, Harriet Rathlef Keilmann complained to Dr. Rudnev, in Russian, over AA's eating habits, saying that she gave everything to the cat and ate nothing herself. AA protested, in German, saying that she ate enough and did not give anything to the cat. Dr. Rudnev and Frau Rathlef Keilmann had to laugh, and the doctor said to AA: Since you understand Russian perfectly, I shall only address you in that language from now on. AA turned to the wall, covered her head and mumbled: I understood nothing, leave me alone. When Gleb Botkin visited at Seeon, he and Madame Meller were sitting with AA in the park when AA started speaking Russian. Madame Meller clapped her hands and complimented AA on using Russian again, and AA turned to Botkin with tears in her eyes and said: I was not speaking Russian, I was speaking German.
In 1938 she had a good period mentally and apparently lost her fear of speaking Russian. She used it fluently in conversations with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an associate of Edward Fallows. (See Fallows' notes.) When the Nazis starting snooping around, she got nervous, shut herself in her apartment and refused to speak Russian anymore.
Later, in America, Xenia Leeds heard her speaking in Russian to her birds, and Mrs. Derfelden told about their strolls in the garden where "AA called all the flowers by their quaint Russian names." Nina Chavchavadze, who did not believe in AA's claim, said: "Whoever she is, she is a lady of high society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."
As for French: She went for breakfast in Paris with Agnes Gallagher, and miss Gallagher had problems ordering since the waiter spoke no English. AA took over, and as miss Gallagher said: "I don't know if she really spoke French, but we got exactly what we ordered for breakfast." Dominique Aucleres stated that she once slipped into French in a conversation with AA, and the latter answered back in French, "with a beautiful accent."

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes, it can. Come with me, accept reality. AA = FS. Let it go.

As far as I can see, this has nothing to do with accepting anything, all I want, is to get the facts straight. I have not made it my life's work to disprove or accept AA like some people with websites all over, preaching you-know-what. Can we now get back on topic?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

As far as I can see, this has nothing to do with accepting anything, all I want, is to get the facts straight. I have not made it my life's work to disprove or accept AA like some people with websites all over, preaching you-know-what. Can we now get back on topic?

I believe she's saying except the fact that the DNA is correct and AA is FS. DNA say it was 99.9% possible FS was AA. It does have something to do with excepting reality. Nobody is preaching. Were just here to explain why AA wasn't Anastasia. Chat, you are giving me speculations, and rumors. NOT, PROVEN FACTS! You still haven't prove to me Anastasia knew Russian or French. These are RUMORS. There's a difference between 'rumors' and facts. This wasn't actually confimed! Speculation doesn't help anything. Such as: nurses heard AA speaking French, and the doctor heard her speak Russian, and she didn't want to speak Russian because of a number of reasons....etc. Why didn't see go to Anastasia's family members and prove she knew Russian and French? It wasn't proven in court.

Ok, here we go. In the protocols at Dalldorf, it is noted that AA spoke Russian with the nurses there. One of the them, Erna Bucholtz, a language teacher from Lubau, who had lived in Russia, testified that AA spoke Russian like a native, using whole, unimpeded sentences, and not like someone who had learned it later in life. The doctor who examined AA at the Kleist's, said that "she speaks Russian in her sleep, with good pronunciation, but mostly about unimportant things." At the Mommsen Clinic, Harriet Rathlef Keilmann complained to Dr. Rudnev, in Russian, over AA's eating habits, saying that she gave everything to the cat and ate nothing herself. AA protested, in German, saying that she ate enough and did not give anything to the cat. Dr. Rudnev and Frau Rathlef Keilmann had to laugh, and the doctor said to AA: Since you understand Russian perfectly, I shall only address you in that language from now on. AA turned to the wall, covered her head and mumbled: I understood nothing, leave me alone. When Gleb Botkin visited at Seeon, he and Madame Meller were sitting with AA in the park when AA started speaking Russian. Madame Meller clapped her hands and complimented AA on using Russian again, and AA turned to Botkin with tears in her eyes and said: I was not speaking Russian, I was speaking German.
In 1938 she had a good period mentally and apparently lost her fear of speaking Russian. She used it fluently in conversations with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an associate of Edward Fallows. (See Fallows' notes.) When the Nazis starting snooping around, she got nervous, shut herself in her apartment and refused to speak Russian anymore.
Later, in America, Xenia Leeds heard her speaking in Russian to her birds, and Mrs. Derfelden told about their strolls in the garden where "AA called all the flowers by their quaint Russian names." Nina Chavchavadze, who did not believe in AA's claim, said: "Whoever she is, she is a lady of high society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian."
As for French: She went for breakfast in Paris with Agnes Gallagher, and miss Gallagher had problems ordering since the waiter spoke no English. AA took over, and as miss Gallagher said: "I don't know if she really spoke French, but we got exactly what we ordered for breakfast." Dominique Aucleres stated that she once slipped into French in a conversation with AA, and the latter answered back in French, "with a beautiful accent."