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  #1921  
Old 10-01-2008, 12:19 PM
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Is this argument that goes on for pages with each side throwing the same stats at each other running out of steam? DNA shows that Anna Anderson was not a Grand Duchess and anything she said is besides the point? DNA is conclusive and proves she was not a Grand Duchess and surely the more interesting discussion is how she came to public attention and how she knew the information, correct or otherwise, that she did.

Otherwise this thread serves very little purpose with each side throwing the same information over and over again at each other and only has the effect that people will simply stray away from the forum as they have heard it all before.
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  #1922  
Old 10-01-2008, 12:29 PM
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I agree Michael HR, I was quite interested in this thread until it started me yawning.
We know that AA was not GD Anastasia now it would make it a bit more interesting if we could learn who took up her cause first and why, and also whether anyone thinks, the way I do that she lied for so long that she started to believe herself. I think that her husband liked the idea of being married to GD and convinced himself that she was.
I very spurious likeness started everything off but how did she carry off the sham for so long? I understand the motives of authors of books, they naturally want to sell them but the other people, were they attracted by the idea of a fortune that they could perhaps share in?
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  #1923  
Old 10-01-2008, 12:33 PM
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Still no explanation of how she knew all these things I have asked you about.
  #1924  
Old 10-01-2008, 03:31 PM
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Chat you still haven't answered mine:

You also need to explain WHY you believe the intestines and hair labeled as hers were not hers, and why the bones found in 2007 were not the last missing children. "I refuse to speculate" is not an answer, it's actually worse than speculating, because you don't even offer a theory. The only issue here seems to be that you want AA to be AN, but sorry, she's not.


Menarue, when I get home from work (I watch after Alzheimer's patients at an old folks home) I will address your question about how she did it. It's a very interesting topic and I'd love to discuss it without the 'but she really was AN' stuff dragging it back down into yawning again.
  #1925  
Old 10-01-2008, 03:40 PM
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Well we know she wasn´t so GD Anastasia so I welcome the idea of hearing about "how".
  #1926  
Old 10-01-2008, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Chat you still haven't answered mine:

You also need to explain WHY you believe the intestines and hair labeled as hers were not hers, and why the bones found in 2007 were not the last missing children. "I refuse to speculate" is not an answer, it's actually worse than speculating, because you don't even offer a theory. The only issue here seems to be that you want AA to be AN, but sorry, she's not.
The simple truth is: I do not know, and I will not, like some others, invent theories and allegations without being able to substantiate them.


Quote:
Menarue, when I get home from work (I watch after Alzheimer's patients at an old folks home) I will address your question about how she did it. It's a very interesting topic and I'd love to discuss it without the 'but she really was AN' stuff dragging it back down into yawning again.
I hope you have proofs behind your answers. You know I will attack every homespun theory of yours.
  #1927  
Old 10-01-2008, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
The simple truth is: I do not know, and I will not, like some others, invent theories and allegations without being able to substantiate them.
The simple truth is, you have no answers, not even a theory, yet you continue to deny the DNA. You must give valid reasons. If you have no idea how it happened, then it didn't happen! The samples were hers, the tests were valid, she's not AN. If you set out to disprove this you must have a very strong case, yet you give nothing!




Quote:
I hope you have proofs behind your answers. You know I will attack every homespun theory of yours.
You certainly have no proof behind your disbelief of the DNA. The reason I mentioned working with Alzheimer's patients is because it reminds me of how frustrating it is to try to deal with a person who lives in an alternate reality and denies the existence of proof in the real world. Tonight, an old man told me I was a plumber who had destroyed his bathroom when he was getting ready to leave for Florida. There was nothing I could do to convince him this wasn't true, but he hit me and called me all kinds of names. It's kind of like being on a message board talking about AA.
  #1928  
Old 10-01-2008, 08:50 PM
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This is what I said:

The DNA says NO! But since we cannot be 100% sure if the samples in question really did belong to AA, it leaves the door open for the mystery to continue.
On the other side, we all know that AA looked very much like AN, so much that 4 expert professors came to the conclusion that they had to be the same people or identical twins. Their ears matched, they had Bilateral Hallux Valgus, both more developed on the right foot than the left. They had identical scars, and in addition AA had a fractured upper and lower jaw, damage to her scull and signs of inner bleeding on her brain. All signs of a hard blow to the head. Plus a scar that was apparently from a glancing bullet behind her ear. And a scar from a triangular bayonet on her foot. They shared the same "unimitable" laugh, the same rapid gait and the same temperament. They both had reddish blonde hair with "the same wave", and both had the luminous blue eyes that by several people in the know were described as "the eyes of the Tsar." AA had a lot, and I mean a lot, of information about the private lives of the IF. She could name ladies in waiting and servants from photographs, and she recognized people like Gilliard, Shura, Olga, Tatiana and Gleb Botkin on sight. Her handwriting was found by two experts to be identical to that of AN, and when angry, red and white blotches would break out on her skin, just like on the Tsarina. She knew the same languages and never made a faux pas in the company of royalty or members of the upper classes. Even in her delirious fever fantasies she never gave herself away as somebody else. Several people who knew AN as a child and teenager never wavered in their conviction that AA was AN.
All this must be considered and weighed against the DNA.
And that's what makes the story interesting.

And, oh yes, make that 8 professors.
  #1929  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:16 PM
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First of all and correct me if I am wrong, but Peter Kurth supplied a hair sample. Didn't like the outcome and then suggested "chain of custody". Secondly, the ear thing is ridiculous. Faded, ancient photographs from a time when photos were dreadful, used to compare ears, come on. If you like all the other "mysteries", fine. Then comparing a child to a grown woman and saying this was identical and that, sure. Reddish blonde hair, there is a rarity, the same gait, how would you know how AN would walked when she was considerably older? The same temperment, wow, there is an oddity. I have friends who have the same temperment as I do. Blotches on her skin when she was angry, just like a million other people in the world. Abe Lincoln was right, you can fool some of the people......
  #1930  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
First of all and correct me if I am wrong, but Peter Kurth supplied a hair sample. Didn't like the outcome and then suggested "chain of custody".
This is what Peter Kurth wrote. Get you story straight.
" I am not a scientist, nor was I in any way connected with the DNA tests of 1994 apart from carrying a single lock of AA's hair to England -- NOT the sample from the bookstore in Chapel Hill, but one "in private hands," so to speak, and automatically worthless as evidence since it had been handled by so many people (as is also true of the hair from C.H.). The sample I carried was intended for Dr. Gill, but was not delivered directly to him, but rather to a reporter for the BBC who acted as intermediary, just as the testing of the blood of Carl Maucher was arranged, not by scientists, but by commercial television producers in Britain, who, since we so loosely toss around the word "agenda" here, plainly had one of their own. The sample I carried was never seen again or otherwise accounted for; none of the hair samples, to my knowledge, were restored to their owners -- which in itself, under law, would ensure that the test results were thrown out of court if anyone had ever dared to bring them there -- but of course they never did and never will."

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Secondly, the ear thing is ridiculous. Faded, ancient photographs from a time when photos were dreadful, used to compare ears, come on.
I think you should discuss that with the scientists who did the comparisons.

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Reddish blonde hair, there is a rarity,
Especially when FS was described as dark blonde.

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the same gait, how would you know how AN would walked when she was considerably older?
Apparently the ones who knew Anastasia knew.

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The same temperment, wow, there is an oddity. I have friends who have the same temperment as I do.
This was actually attributed to her by her opponent, Grand Duke Alexander.

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Blotches on her skin when she was angry, just like a million other people in the world. Abe Lincoln was right, you can fool some of the people......
So you know of a million people with this trait? Interesting.
  #1931  
Old 10-01-2008, 10:03 PM
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AA not being AN is not an 'opinion', it's a fact. It's been scientifically proven false.

As far as Kurth and the hair, he made those comments after it failed. Before, he was all for it and never questioned it belonging to AA.


  #1932  
Old 10-01-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
AA not being AN is not an 'opinion', it's a fact. It's been scientifically proven false.
If it is a fact, why do we not have a legal decision to end this discussion once and for all?

Quote:
As far as Kurth and the hair, he made those comments after it failed. Before, he was all for it and never questioned it belonging to AA.

See this article:

http://img156.exs.cx/img156/9286/aaarticle4pv.jpg
I think you should discuss this with Mr. Kurth, I am sure he knows what he said. And what does the article have to do with him?
  #1933  
Old 10-01-2008, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
If it is a fact, why do we not have a legal decision to end this discussion once and for all?
There hasn't been a legal decision because there hasn't been a court case to provide the venue for such a decision. You need someone to bring a court case before a legal decision can be rendered; nobody has tried to challenge the 1994 DNA results in court.
  #1934  
Old 10-02-2008, 03:55 AM
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Sorry to go off subject but I have reddish blonde hair, in fact most people during my life have commented on the unusual colour. Do you think?
I am afraid we are back to the chain of custody again. This has become yawn factor again.
  #1935  
Old 10-02-2008, 12:08 PM
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Yes it is a yawn, and the chain of custody claim has long since worn thin. What are the chances the intestine and the hair would just happen to match exactly if both were not really hers? And both match FS's family? And that the bone fragments would match the royal family? It's really asking way too much for anyone to believe such a mathematically impossible scenario just to hold onto the AA dream. It just shows how desperate and unrealistic AA supporters have become.

Quote:
Especially when FS was described as dark blonde.
Back to the hair- Chat, every time you make the list the hair changes colors. The list you sent me in PM last year claimed FS's hair was 'almost black.' Hair color is the most useless comparison, since it's subjective to different people and described how they see it personally, and most of all, it can be changed so easily by dyeing! So for both sides, the hair color really is useless.
  #1936  
Old 10-02-2008, 12:10 PM
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Now as promised here are my ideas on why AA's claim lasted so long. Of course Chat will never accept them because there's no page number from Kurth's book but maybe it will give the rest of us something to think about and discuss.

Some reasons it worked for so long
Why was her claim so long lived and famous while other claimants faltered? She certainly had the right backing, determined, clever, strong willed supporters with a plan and the knowledge and creativity to make it appear to work. The publicity of the trial, and the writings of supporters like the Botkins and Rathlef, made her story an intriguing, spellbinding legend of fairy tale proportions that attracted the interest of millions. Plays and movies were made based on the legend that grew around Anderson. It seems people wanted her to be Anastasia, it was more fun to believe in the 'lost princess' and easier to villainize those who tried to 'stop' her. This may be why it's so hard to tell or see the other side of it to this day- it wasn't as interesting if she were a fake, 'only' a Polish beet farm girl and factory worker playing a part. Some people wanted to believe it very badly.

It does look as if many of her earlier supporters in the Russian emigre' community were not so much accepting her as "Anastasia" specifically but as a piece of the past they hoped to hold onto. Notice many of the comments on why they accepted her "Those are Nicky's eyes." "She waved goodbye just like my Empress" "She raised her hand to be kissed like a lady of good breeding" and so forth. There is little relating to her being ANASTASIA herself, except maybe a bit from Leeds and of course the questionable Botkins. Part of believing in Anderson's claim seems rooted in nostalgia and desire for the past to return, all parts of the wishful thinking that sometimes made people see what they chose to see in their hearts, even if it wasn't really there.

The Americans who made her the toast of New York wouldn't have known nearly enough to identify or reject a real Anastasia, so that's no endorsement. They were told she was a princess, they played the game without question. In the days of glamorous movie actresss, she was the star she always wanted to be. People wanted, maybe even needed, a lost princess among them. In her later years she was rough, disheveled and not at all regal in appearance or demeanor, yet she still collected new admirers. As Olga Alexandrovna said, "My telling the truth does no good, because the public simply wants to believe the mystery."

Who Really Knew Anastasia?

Another big part of why the charade was so successful may have been because so few people knew the girls very well. They were all so close in age and most people who had casual contact would not have been able to remember the particular characteristics of each and tell one from another years later (such as Zina Tolstoy who first accepted AA as "Tatiana" then changed to "Anastasia" when the Grand Duchess in the claim changed) The family was mainly very isolated, the children sheltered by their mother, they didn't go out, no one came in. Only a few inner circle people had more than brief contact. There were really no close friends, or even close cousins, who knew her well enough to accurately vouch for her authenticity, or lack thereof. Sophie Buxhoevedon wrote that "
friends would have been welcome, but no young girls were ever asked to the Palace. The Empress thought that the four sisters should be able to entertain one another." Anna Vyrubova mentions the same scenario in her memoirs: "...friends for these high born but unfortunate girls were very difficult to find. The Empress dreaded for her daughters the companionship of oversophisticated young women of the aristocracy, whose minds, even in the schoolroom, were fed with the foolish and often vicious gossip of a decadent society. The Empress even discouraged association with cousins and near relatives, many of whom were unwholesomely precocious in their outlook on life."

This shortage of real witnesses played right into the hands of Anderson and her supporters. Had she gone to school instead of being tutored at home, there may have been dozens of friends and acquaintances who would have seen Anastasia on a daily basis and would have known her well enough to tell her from an imposter. Because of their lack of outside contact, Anastasia wasn't individually familiar to many who could have have honestly been able to identify or refute her for sure. The few who did have close relationships with her either weren't asked (Anna Vyrubova, Dmitri Pavlovich) or were branded as 'liars' (Olga Alexandrovna, Pierre Gilliard, Sophie Buxhoevedon) who were out to deprive "Anastasia" of her 'name' and 'money'. Sadly, many people fell for this reasoning and the charade and case continued.

Popularity of the "Anastasia" legend and a desire to believe it

Ever since the 1920's, the story of the escaped princess fascinated and captivated the public's attention. After Rathlef's serialized story on Anderson was published, there were "Anastasia" brand cigarettes and candy being sold in Berlin, and even a night club tune written in her honor. If she were only Franziska, that was no fun!
Later, another issue working against Berenberg-Gossler and the others trying to disprove Anderson's claim was when a round of the case coincided with the 1956 release of Twentieth Century Fox's box office hit "Anastasia", starring Ingrid Bergman. The grossly inaccurate but very popular movie helped legitimize Anderson's claims in the court of public opinion and made things a lot more difficult for Berenberg-Gossler. The court case had a large following in German tabloids and many readers who saw the movie thought it was a true story. People wanted to believe, and didn't want to hear that it wasn't true. It was much easier for them to accept the 'evil relative' excuse than to face the truth- the real Anastasia was dead, and Anna Anderson was only a Polish factory worker who'd lucked into the role of her life.

Prince Michael Romanov, a grandson of Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, stated that while the family always knew Anderson to be an imposter, the legend around her made it much more difficult to convince others. With a host of movies, books and newspaper articles promoting Anna Anderson's claims from the 1920's to the present day the Romanoff family found it increasingly difficult to escape the soap opera, for all the glories of a once magnificent imperial dynasty it was Anderson's claims most people wanted to talk about.
"Over the years friends and acquaintances who had seen the movies or read the books on Anderson would lecture me on why she was genuine," Prince Michael recalls, "few would listen to or accept the otherside of the argument. It was infuriating but after a while I just stopped arguing, what point was it?, how could I compete with the glamorous tales being created by the entertainment industry."

The Media's portrayal
Perhaps the biggest factor in the long life of the charade was the public interest, the media's presentation and sensationalism. Dr. von Berenberg-Gossler said that during Anderson's German court cases the press were always more interested in reporting her side of the story than the opposing benches' less glamorous perspective. Editors often pulled journalists after reporting testimony delivered by her side and ignored the rebuttal, resulting in the public seldom getting a complete picture. This is a big factor in why the story is always told so slanted to her side, and why I am here today trying to balance it out.

(source for above 3 paragraphs: John Godl's article, "Remembering Anna Anderson, part II) The rest is my own research and observations.

AND THE NUMBER ONE ANSWER IS.....
.

It was all about the money. No other claimant had a multimillion dollar claim and lawsuit. Money, the root of all evil, money that turns otherwise nice people into greedy monsters. Anderson claimed that she, as "Anastasia" was told by her father of enormous amounts of money deposited in European banks in the names of the Grand Duchesses. Anyone who could prove they were one of the Tsar's children stood to inherit countless millions. Thus, Anderson became a sort of 'cash cow' to her supporters, and backing her until she proved her identity and claimed her fortune was making it profitable indeed to be a supporter. While in reality there was no such mysterious fortune, and the surviving Romanovs seemed not to be well off financially, the lure of it was enough to drive the claim onward. Ironically, while most Anderson supporters to this day will use greed and lying for money as the motivation of those who denied her, it appears that may well have been the other way around!(some lying or embellishing to support her in the event of a big payoff if she won)
  #1937  
Old 10-02-2008, 12:49 PM
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Thanks A was F, that was a very clear explanation of what I agree with entirely. Of course the family couldn´t compete with the legend, no one could. I remember the film, Ingrid Bergman made a very convincing Anastasia and there wasn´t dry eye in the audience....
Before the days of DNA it was a fascinating story, but now we know that AA wasn´t who she claimed it is interesting to look at the motives. She, I believe, was a weak little "parrot" and any young peasant girl would be delighted to be treated like a princess and have the carrot(fortune) dangled in front of her nose and she was led to believe it was within reach. A sad story but not as sad as the truth, a young girl at the beginning of her adult life cruelly murdered along side her family.
  #1938  
Old 10-02-2008, 01:54 PM
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Thanks, Menarue. I agree with you and description of AA. How incredibly lucky it must have felt for a girl who was so desperate she wanted to die, attempted suicide, then taken to an asylum refusing to speak, to be suddenly thrust into fame and possible fortune, much love and adoration as 'Anastasia.' As her brother once said, they left her to her 'career' as 'Anastasia.' Why spoil it for her? She was much better off, always taken care of, and they were off the hook. This brings up another issue- why she never gave it up. How could she? She'd be accused of fraud and possibly jailed and/or charged large sums of money for all the trouble she caused, not to mention the unbearable humiliation of it all. I do believe in time she did come to believe it, but I am convinced as late as the early days of the trial (at least) she knew exactly who she was and what she was doing, and was afraid of getting caught.

In addition to her not wanting to give it up, I imagine the supporters who had honestly been taken in by her, from some emigres' to the wealthy of NYC, (to some supporters even today) would never admit she wasn't AN because it was just too embarrassing to admit they'd been wrong, or 'quality folk tricked by a simple peasant', and if she's 'only' FS and not AN, maybe their lives are a little less special for having known her. But they shouldn't feel that way, she was still a celebrity, and an actress, doesn't everyone want to say they've met a famous actress?
  #1939  
Old 10-02-2008, 03:14 PM
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[quote=Anna was Franziska;831642].

Quote:
Some reasons it worked for so long
Quote:
Why was her claim so long lived and famous while other claimants faltered? She certainly had the right backing, determined, clever, strong willed supporters with a plan and the knowledge and creativity to make it appear to work.


And who were these clever, strong willed supporters, what was their knowledge, and what was their plan?
What she really had, was very strong opponents, such as her uncle Ernie, Lord Mountbatten, Grand Duke Alexander and his wife, Xenia and Grand Duke Cyril. Plus, of course, Pierre Gilliard, the "Representative of the House of Hesse, who wrote numerous articles against her plus a whole book dedicated to disproving her claim. The plan was to put her back in an asylum under the name of Franzisca Schanzkowska, who had been declared mentally ill by doctors. With AA out of circulation, the family could lay claims to the alleged fortune in the English banks.

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The publicity of the trial, and the writings of supporters like the Botkins and Rathlef, made her story an intriguing, spellbinding tale of fairy tale proportions that attracted the interest of millions. Plays and movies were made based on the legend that grew around Anderson.


Yes, and the story about the REAL Anna Anderson was so obscure that even Marcelle Maurette, who wrote a play about her life, was aghast to find out after the fact that AA was still alive. So much for the interest of the millions in the real case.

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It seems people
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wanted her to be Anastasia, it was more fun to believe in the 'lost princess' and easier to villainize those who tried to 'stop' her.


Villainize Gilliard for telling lies? Villainize the Grand Duke of Hesse for refusing to meet with AA because "it might end up in the press"? Villainize Lord Mountbatten for squelching a BBC program about AA?
Get real.

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This may be why it's so hard to tell or see the other side of it to this day- it wasn't as interesting if she were a fake, 'only' a Polish beet farm girl and factory worker playing a part. Some people wanted to believe it very badly.


And some people are just opposed to re-writing of history.


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It does look as if many of her earlier supporters in the Russian emigre' community were not so much accepting her as "Anastasia" specifically but as a piece of the past they hoped to hold onto. Notice many of the comments on why they accepted her "Those are Nicky's eyes."


Stated by Matilde Chessinska who was the Tsar's mistress. I think she would know. Actually, Gleb Botkin said the same thing.

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"She waved goodbye just like my Empress"


Stated by Lili Dehn who, after spending a week with AA, endorsed her as the daughter of the Tsar.

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"She raised her hand to be kissed like a lady of good breeding"


Stated by Felix Dassel who on his deathbed affirmed under oath that he had recognized AA as Anastasia.

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and so forth. There is little relating to her being ANASTASIA herself,
I think we have already taken care of that one.


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except maybe a bit from Leeds and of course the questionable Botkins.


Yes, just a bit. Three people who never wavered in their conviction that she was the daughter of the Tsar.

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I think we have already disproved that Part of believing in Anderson's claim seems rooted in nostalgia and desire for the past to return, all parts of the wishful thinking that sometimes made people see what they chose to see in their hearts, even if it wasn't really there.


Seems that the desire to see her in the asylum was stronger......

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The Americans who made her the toast of New York wouldn't have known nearly enough to identify or reject a real Anastasia, so that's no endorsement.


And none was claimed.

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They were told she was a princess, they played the game without question.


Except for those who openly doubted her claim.

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In the days of glamorous movie actresss, she was the star she always wanted to be.


Always wanted to be?? She was intensely private, hid behind made up names, shunned all publicty, she even berated people who openly endorsed her.

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In her later years she was rough, disheveled and not at all regal in appearance or demeanor, yet she still collected new admirers.


Maybe because she was still regal in appearance.

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As Olga Alexandrovna said, "My telling the truth does no good, because the public simply wants to believe the mystery."


Yes, as Olga said: "My heart tells me that the little one is Anastasia."
  #1940  
Old 10-02-2008, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Who Really Knew Anastasia?
Quote:

Another big part of why the charade was so successful may have been because so few people knew the girls very well. They were all so close in age and most people who had casual contact would not have been able to remember the particular characteristics of each and tell one from another years later (such as Zina Tolstoy who first accepted AA as "Tatiana" then changed to "Anastasia" when the Grand Duchess in the claim changed)


Actually, Zinaida Tolstoy was not sure, and therefore they sent for Buxhoeveden.

Quote:
The family was mainly very isolated, the children sheltered by their mother, they didn't go out, no one came in. Only a few inner circle people had more than brief contact. There were really no close friends, or even close cousins, who knew her well enough to accurately vouch for her authenticity, or lack thereof. Sophie Buxhoevedon wrote that "
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friends would have been welcome, but no young girls were ever asked to the Palace. The Empress thought that the four sisters should be able to entertain one another." Anna Vyrubova mentions the same scenario in her memoirs: "...friends for these high born but unfortunate girls were very difficult to find. The Empress dreaded for her daughters the companionship of oversophisticated young women of the aristocracy, whose minds, even in the schoolroom, were fed with the foolish and often vicious gossip of a decadent society. The Empress even discouraged association with cousins and near relatives, many of whom were unwholesomely precocious in their outlook on life."

This shortage of real witnesses played right into the hands of Anderson and her supporters. Had she gone to school instead of being tutored at home, there may have been dozens of friends and acquaintances who would have seen Anastasia on a daily basis and would have known her well enough to tell her from an imposter. Because of their lack of outside contact, Anastasia wasn't individually familiar to many who could have have honestly been able to identify or refute her for sure.


This is actually quite correct. On the other side, FS went to school, worked several jobs in Berlin and Bütow, was in and out of hospitals etc. Still, when the pictures of AA were plastered all over the press, nobody, and I mean nobody, ever came forward and claimed that they had recognized their old schoolmate/co-worker/friend/patient. The only one who claimed to have recognized her, was, of course, Doris Wingender, who had "identified" her from a photo that was not much more than a blurb. As the judge said: From this you could recognize anybody or nobody.

Quote:
The few who did have close relationships with her either weren't asked (Anna Vyrubova, Dmitri Pavlovich) or were branded as 'liars' (Olga Alexandrovna, Pierre Gilliard, Sophie Buxhoevedon) who were out to deprive "Anastasia" of her 'name' and 'money'. Sadly, many people fell for this reasoning and the charade and case continued.


And if Anna Vyrubova had identified her, as Lili Dehn did, you would have found a way to discredit her as well. Both Olga and Gilliard left Berlin "without being able to say that she was NOT the Grand Duchess." Only three months later, without ever seeing her again, did they suddenly make a U-turn, and Gilliard became The Representative of the House of Hesse. Buxhoeveden obviously had her own reasons.
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anastasia, anna anderson, dr berenberg-gossler, ekaterinburg, franziska schanzkowska, grand duchess anastasia, pierre gilliard, prince michael romanov


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