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  #1841  
Old 09-24-2008, 03:19 PM
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(Andrew/Andre' was active in the Emigre' association in Berlin and close to Sergei Botkin, its leader, by no coincidence the uncle of Gleb and Tatiana.)
Andrew lived in Paris where AA met him in 1927. Sergei Botkin refused to endorse AA as Anastasia.
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  #1842  
Old 09-24-2008, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
As Gilliard later confessed, he was the one who talked Olga into changing her mind on AA.
Oh I thought you said it was Xenia who forbid her to accept her! How do you know Olga didn't just decide for herself? That's what it looks like to me. Give her enough credit, she wasn't influenced by anyone.
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He did not marry Mahtilde Kcessinska until after WWI.
But they were shacking up together since 1910, (when he took her away from Sergei Mikhailovich, who had taken her over from Nicky in 1894 up on his engagement to Alix) and they had an illegitimate son together.
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And your source for this is?
He's never mentioned as a frequent visitor in any book about them, most likely for all the reasons I already mentioned (family on the outs with N and A, living with his former mistress)
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This was after Andrew's recognition of AA and his subsequent letter to Olga. Of course she had to defend her position, and somebody had to be blamed.
You are making excuses here. It seems like Olga was suspicious of Andre due to his not being a friend (remember his brother Kyril turned against Nicholas) and perhaps she felt he was up to something against them, just like a Vladimirovichi. As mentioned by another poster, isn't it true he accepted AA sight unseen? Anyway, he ended up giving her up after Gleb's nasty letter to Xenia, and rightfully so.
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Sergei Botkin refused to endorse AA as Anastasia.
Did he not say "she's either GD AN or a miracle, and I don't believe in miracles?" Is that not an endorsement? Are we to not to be suspicious due to his position, and his nephew and niece's heavy involvement in AA's case?
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  #1843  
Old 09-24-2008, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Oh I thought you said it was Xenia who forbid her to accept her! How do you know Olga didn't just decide for herself? That's what it looks like to me. Give her enough credit, she wasn't influenced by anyone.
In Herluf Zahle's dossier is, according to Gleb Botkin, a cable from Xenia to Olga, saying "Under no circumstances acknowledge the unknown woman in Berlin." Well, Olga went to Berlin against her mother's wishes after having asked Gilliard to go there first with Shura to see if it really was Anastasia. We can only surmise that the response was positive since she came to see for herself. Read my previous post about her reaction and letters to AA. Suddenly, in January of 1926, at the same time Gilliard cut off all correspondence with Harriet Rathlef Keilmann, Olga came out to the Danish press with a denial. Gilliard confessed shortly after that he was the one who had talked her into it.

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He's never mentioned as a frequent visitor in any book about them, most likely for all the reasons I already mentioned (family on the outs with N and A, living with his former mistress)
When you have read some more, get back to me.

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You are making excuses here. It seems like Olga was suspicious of Andre due to his not being a friend (remember his brother Kyril turned against Nicholas) and perhaps she felt he was up to something against them, just like a Vladimirovichi.
You forget it was Olga who gave the go-ahead for his investigation.

Quote:
As mentioned by another poster, isn't it true he accepted AA sight unseen? Anyway, he ended up giving her up after Gleb's nasty letter to Xenia, and rightfully so.
He did not accept AA sight unseen, as a matter of fact, he delayed their meeting until he had collected as much informtion on the case as he could. Later on, he was ordered off the case by his brother Cyril. As Uncle Ernie said: An investigation could be dangerous.

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Did he not say "she's either GD AN or a miracle, and I don't believe in miracles?" Is that not an endorsement? Are we to not to be suspicious due to his position, and his nephew and niece's heavy involvement in AA's case?
Yes, that was as far as he would go. He would not publicly endorse her as Anastasia and call the wrath of the Romanovs down on his head. As for Gleb and Tatiana's "heavy involvement", I am not quite sure I know what you are talking about. They both recognized her on sigth, and she recognized them. Tatiana met with Romanov family members, but no-one wanted to hear what she had to say. Gilliard said later that she had been hypnotized by Frau Rathlef Keilmann, well knowing that the two had never met. Gleb was approached by a friend of Xenia Leeds in New York who put them in contact with each other, and Xenia paid for AA's trip to USA, and we all know the rest. AA and Botkin did not see each other for the next 10 years. He did write a book about her, but was never "heavy involved" in her case.
  #1844  
Old 09-24-2008, 08:03 PM
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Gleb was approached by a friend of Xenia Leeds in New York who put them in contact with each other, and Xenia paid for AA's trip to USA, and we all know the rest.
Not quite. Actually, she needed to get out of Germany fast, and he looked for someone in America to take her. Through the friend, at Gleb's suggestion, Leeds agreed, however, she had left on a long vacation and wasn't even home when AA arrived!

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He did write a book about her, but was never "heavy involved" in her case.
He wrote several books and articles, and no one was more 'heavily involved' in her case, long term, than him.

As for all the he said/she said, we have to go back to the fact that AA was proven not to be AN, so it is null and void.
  #1845  
Old 09-24-2008, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Not quite. Actually, she needed to get out of Germany fast, and he looked for someone in America to take her. Through the friend, at Gleb's suggestion, Leeds agreed, however, she had left on a long vacation and wasn't even home when AA arrived!
From Gleb Botkin's book:

Then, towards the end of the summer, an old friend of my family, Mrs. Margharita Derfelden, told me that Princess Xenia of Russia was eager to see me and hear my story about Grand Duchess Anastasia.

I proceeded to report to her all I knew about the case of Grand Duchess Anastasia. Xenia listened attentively and when I had finished, said:
"Now I can hardly doubt that she is actually Grand Duchess Anastasia. What a tragedy! I must do something for her!"

In the end Princess Xenia said that she was thinking seriously of inviting Anastasia to Oyster Bay. She told me, however, that strange as it seemed, she was always in financial difficulties, and that it would perhaps take her a little time to get the money necessary for Anastasia's journey.

I gladly promised Princess Xenia to do nothing without her permission, and to devote myself entirely to the duties of being her assistant in the case.

Quote:
He wrote several books and articles, and no one was more 'heavily involved' in her case, long term, than him.
Yes, he was her true friend and wrote articles and books, but as for the case of establishing her identity, he was not involved at all, not even as a witness. He was also asked by both AA and Xenia to not write several articles that he thought might have benefitted the case.

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As for all the he said/she said, we have to go back to the fact that AA was proven not to be AN, so it is null and void.
Still interesting though.
  #1846  
Old 09-24-2008, 09:56 PM
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It is still interesting, as long as it's kept in the right context now that we know she wasn't AN. The story is always interesting to discuss and I'd like to do so in a post-DNA test world. Please?
  #1847  
Old 09-24-2008, 11:10 PM
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I believe Olga did the "humane" thing (in Olga's way of thinking) in not identifying Anna as Anastasia because it would have been too much for the Dowager Empress to handle. Olga was much too polite when it came to family politics and she knew good and well how life would become upset on many levels. I gather Anna Anderson was a bit "disturbed" and in need of medical attention best served by being institutionalized (remember Prince Philip's mother was mentally unstable..along with Empress Alix..so the mentally instability would fit right in the family patterns) at that point in time and self preservation was sort of an immediate need for Olga, Xenia and Marie.

As per the DNA and the supposed found, buried and martyred bodies I am not convinced that hasn't been a ploy just to add to the myths and fables surrounding the mystery of the Romanovs.
  #1848  
Old 09-24-2008, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
It is still interesting, as long as it's kept in the right context now that we know she wasn't AN. The story is always interesting to discuss and I'd like to do so in a post-DNA test world. Please?
As long as you cannot prove beyond any doubt that the DNA came from AA, I keep my options open. < ed Warren: unnecessary personal remark >
  #1849  
Old 09-24-2008, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pinkie40 View Post
I believe Olga did the "humane" thing (in Olga's way of thinking) in not identifying Anna as Anastasia because it would have been too much for the Dowager Empress to handle. Olga was much too polite when it came to family politics and she knew good and well how life would become upset on many levels. I gather Anna Anderson was a bit "disturbed" and in need of medical attention best served by being institutionalized (remember Prince Philip's mother was mentally unstable..along with Empress Alix..so the mentally instability would fit right in the family patterns) at that point in time and self preservation was sort of an immediate need for Olga, Xenia and Marie.
Somehow, I think financially stability was more on the mind of the family, especially Xenia. And no doctor ever found any sign of mental illness in AA. Just shattered nerves.

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As per the DNA and the supposed found, buried and martyred bodies I am not convinced that hasn't been a ploy just to add to the myths and fables surrounding the mystery of the Romanovs.
Ooops.....
  #1850  
Old 09-24-2008, 11:45 PM
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And, oh yes, I am still waiting for an explanation for AA's recognition of the Tsar's cigarette holder. That one baffles me.
  #1851  
Old 09-25-2008, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
You forget that Anastasia was a rather plump teenager who later showed up as thin as a rail with all her upper front teeth missing and her jaws broken. At the time Olga met her, she was deadly ill and on morphine several times a day. I have myself met a cancer patient and not recognized him even though less than a year had passed since the last time I saw him. Also, remember Gilliard who met Volkov again after a few months, and he did not recognize him.
It doesn't take forever for emaciated persons to regain their former appearance after some care and attention; Anna Anderson wasn't a cancer patient, and her condition would have improved over time, not deteriorated. As I said, I can't imagine that if Princess Margaret had been in the same situation, there would have been any doubt about her identity on the part of people who knew her, especially relations like the Duchess of Gloucester or her Bowes-Lyon cousins. Yet with Anna Anderson there were people who had known Anastasia who flat-out said Anna Anderson wasn't the same person. The fact that some people were sure she was the same person and others were sure that she wasn't is very strange. I realise that there must have been a desperate hope that the whole family hadn't perished, and there appears to have been some self-interest involved on the part of some of the people involved in identifying (or not identifying) her, but unless all the people who claimed she was an impostor had very good reasons to lie through their teeth, it still seems strange to me that less than five years later, they weren't recognising her if she really was the same person.
  #1852  
Old 09-25-2008, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by pinkie40 View Post
As per the DNA and the supposed found, buried and martyred bodies I am not convinced that hasn't been a ploy just to add to the myths and fables surrounding the mystery of the Romanovs.
You'll have some facts to back this up, I hope? I mean, this is tantamount to accusing some fairly prominent scientists of fraud.
  #1853  
Old 09-25-2008, 12:12 AM
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It doesn't take forever for emaciated persons to regain their former appearance after some care and attention; Anna Anderson wasn't a cancer patient, and her condition would have improved over time, not deteriorated.
And who says it did not improve? By the time she left for USA she was fairly much restored back to health.

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As I said, I can't imagine that if Princess Margaret had been in the same situation, there would have been any doubt about her identity on the part of people who knew her, especially relations like the Duchess of Gloucester or her Bowes-Lyon cousins.
But did these people have an agenda of their own?

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Yet with Anna Anderson there were people who had known Anastasia who flat-out said Anna Anderson wasn't the same person.
Which ones are you referring to?

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The fact that some people were sure she was the same person and others were sure that she wasn't is very strange.
Are you sure they were so certain that she wasn't, or did they just say so?

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I realise that there must have been a desperate hope that the whole family hadn't perished, and there appears to have been some self-interest involved on the part of some of the people involved in identifying (or not identifying) her, but unless all the people who claimed she was an impostor had very good reasons to lie through their teeth, it still seems strange to me that less than five years later, they weren't recognising her if she really was the same person.
Most of the people who saw her had not seen her for 7-10 years. Only Baroness Buxhoeveden saw her 5 years earlier, and she formed her opinion in a few minutes. She did not take the time to really spend some time on the case.
  #1854  
Old 09-25-2008, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by pinkie40 View Post
I believe Olga did the "humane" thing (in Olga's way of thinking) in not identifying Anna as Anastasia because it would have been too much for the Dowager Empress to handle.
If AA had been AN, everyone would have been overjoyed. The sad fact that she was an imposter is what was hurtful to the surviving family members. They took so much harassment and abuse, and accusations to this day, due to these money hungry pretenders.

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As per the DNA and the supposed found, buried and martyred bodies I am not convinced that hasn't been a ploy just to add to the myths and fables surrounding the mystery of the Romanovs.
How would lying about finding them increase the myth? All the 'ploys' to keep the myth alive are all coming from the pro AA side, like the conspiracy theories, or no theories at all, about the DNA being switched, anything to keep the exciting mystery (and for some, the cash cow) alive. Finding the bones puts all that to rest. (where it belongs)
  #1855  
Old 09-25-2008, 01:00 PM
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And who says it did not improve? By the time she left for USA she was fairly much restored back to health.
Her sickly, emaciated appearance was confusing to Olga and Gilliard, and made them take a longer time to be sure it wasn't her (again, I cite the story of the lady who took home the wrong dog) It's horrible how they're accused of really accepting her, then 'turning their backs' later. They gave it a chance, but the answer was no.


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Most of the people who saw her had not seen her for 7-10 years.
This is something that, when I was much younger, I didn't realize- that people really DON'T change that much in a few years, and now that I'm older, I can see that even if they get old, fat, bald, wrinkly, whatever, their basic features and bone structure never change. Now I look back and wonder how in the world I ever could have considered AA was AN just a few years later! Look at this:

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra...anaafaces5.jpg

Anastasia in 1916, AA in early 1920- look at the very different features, face shape, chin size and bone structure. Note especially the size and shape of the lips. There is no way this is the same girl just 3 and a half years later, and AA looks much older than the 18 and a half AN would have been. FS was 23, and guessed by the staff to be 30, which offended her.

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Baroness Buxhoeveden saw her 5 years earlier, and she formed her opinion in a few minutes. She did not take the time to really spend some time on the case.
Bux was called to ID TATIANA and since AA was so much shorter, it was an easy call. It was only later that Bux found out she was calling herself Anastasia, but denounced that claim, too. When she was there and denied AA was Tatiana, she never spoke up and said 'you got it wrong this is Anastasia!' so she didn't think she resembled her. We'll never know what she'd have said if someone had suggested Anastasia first.

Here is Bux's statement(I'm sure it's been posted before, but of course lost in the jumble)

"She was in bed close to the wall, she was turned facing against the window, in full sunlight. When she heard us enter the room, she hid herself under the cover to hide herself from our stares, and we were not able to get her to show us her face....The unknown one spoke German with Miss Peuthert. Although she was permitted to get up, she prefered to stay in bed as long as possible. This is how I found her. After asking my companions to move away from the bed a little, I tried to attract the young woman's attention as I caressed her hair and speaking to her in English while using the types of phrases I would have used while speaking with the Grand Duchesses, but I did not refer to her by any name other than 'Darling'. She did not reply and I saw that she did not understand a word of what I had said, for when she raised the cover after a certain period of time, and I saw her face, there was nothing in her eyes which showed she had recognized me. The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna, resemblance that disappeared, nevertheless, as soon as her face was not covered. I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess. The hair was lighter in color, some of her teeth were missing-and the remaining ones were not like those of the Grand Duchess...Her hands were also completely different, the fingers were longer and the nails narrower. I wanted to measure her height, but she refused, and I found it impossible to get an exact measurement without force. We judged roughly that in any case, she was smaller than me, while the Grand Duchess Tatiana was more than ten centimeters taller than me. I have been able to verify this, thanks to the patient's official measurement at the time of her arrival at the hospital and that corresponded exactly with the one which was taken in my presence.

I tried to awaken the memory of the young woman by all the possible means; I showed to her an 'icon', with the date of the Romanov jubilee, that the emperor had given to some persons of the suite, after that a ring that had belonged to the empress; the latter had been given given to her in the presence of the Grand Duchess Tatiana. But none of these things seemed not to evoke in her the slightest recognition. She remained completely indifferent, she whispered some incomprehensible words into Ms. Peuthert's ear. Although I noted a certain similarity in the upper part of the face with the unknown -currently Mrs. Tschaikovski- with the Grand Duchess Tatiana, I am sure that she is not her. I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.
  #1856  
Old 09-25-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Her sickly, emaciated appearance was confusing to Olga and Gilliard, and made them take a longer time to be sure it wasn't her (again, I cite the story of the lady who took home the wrong dog) It's horrible how they're accused of really accepting her, then 'turning their backs' later. They gave it a chance, but the answer was no.
Yes, it took them three months. Without ever seeing her again. And Uncle Ernie paying out thousands of dollars trying to prove that AA was someone else. All he had to do, was to travel to Berlin, take one look and say: That woman is an impostor, she is not my niece. But he was afraid it would get into the newspapers. And he warned Andrew that "and investigation might be dangerous." Dangerous for whom?


Quote:
This is something that, when I was much younger, I didn't realize- that people really DON'T change that much in a few years, and now that I'm older, I can see that even if they get old, fat, bald, wrinkly, whatever, their basic features and bone structure never change. Now I look back and wonder how in the world I ever could have considered AA was AN just a few years later! Look at this:

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra...anaafaces5.jpg

Anastasia in 1916, AA in early 1920- look at the very different features, face shape, chin size and bone structure. Note especially the size and shape of the lips. There is no way this is the same girl just 3 and a half years later, and AA looks much older than the 18 and a half AN would have been. FS was 23, and guessed by the staff to be 30, which offended her.
And look at this:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h4...iacollage2.jpg

Quote:
I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.


Never mind the haircolor, the height, the scars, the Hallux Valgus and the eyes. But, then again, Sophie Buxhoeveden had her own agenda. Don't forget she was the only one who refused to testify for Sokolov, and I think we all know why.
  #1857  
Old 09-25-2008, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
If AA had been AN, everyone would have been overjoyed.
Except for the dowager Empress who refused to believe that a murder of the IF had taken place. That's why Olga wrote to her secretary: How shall I tell Mama, this will kill her.

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The sad fact that she was an imposter is what was hurtful to the surviving family members. They took so much harassment and abuse, and accusations to this day, due to these money hungry pretenders.
As Xenia Leeds said to Botkin: What do you mean she is an impostor? Everybody knows that she is not an impostor.

Quote:
How would lying about finding them increase the myth? All the 'ploys' to keep the myth alive are all coming from the pro AA side, like the conspiracy theories, or no theories at all, about the DNA being switched, anything to keep the exciting mystery (and for some, the cash cow) alive. Finding the bones puts all that to rest. (where it belongs)
What about the conspiracy theories that "someone told her, someone taught her etc etc?"
  #1858  
Old 09-25-2008, 02:48 PM
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Except for the dowager Empress who refused to believe that a murder of the IF had taken place. That's why Olga wrote to her secretary: How shall I tell Mama, this will kill her.
I was just reading that yesterday, and in its proper context, its meaning is it would upset her that she went to see a claimant. Anything about her being upset one person survived meaning the others were dead is your own assumption. And if they had all been dead but one, do you really think anyone would deny that one because it would make the Dowager sad the others didn't live too? How ridiculous.

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What about the conspiracy theories that "someone told her, someone taught her etc etc?"
No the 'someone told her' is logic and common sense since we know she wasn't really AN. This is not comparable to your 'it must have been switched because she was not a Polish peasant' which is too weak to even stand on its own. So a few people can't accept they or their kin were tricked by a peasant. That doesn't mean they weren't. The DNA proves they were.

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Never mind the haircolor, the height, the scars, the Hallux Valgus and the eyes.
never mind the DNA?

Oh, I also found out yesterday- from Kurth's book no less- that AA shared a blood type with FS's sisters!

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But, then again, Sophie Buxhoeveden had her own agenda. Don't forget she was the only one who refused to testify for Sokolov, and I think we all know why.
Oh here comes the old Bux betrayal nonsense again. Snore.

About the pictures, I really don't see any resemblance at all. That boa one is a joke, it was taken after she went to America with Gleb and got her 'extreme makeover'. Compare glamour AA

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/lipbyte.jpg


to original AA, before she started pretending to be AN



ttp://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/aamug.jpg



the lip biting is quite apparent. As for the faces, look at AN compared to AA, from the asylum, pre makeover and posing:NOTHING in common with AN!

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...s/aaanlips.jpg
  #1859  
Old 09-25-2008, 03:13 PM
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I was just reading that yesterday, and in its proper context, its meaning is it would upset her that she went to see a claimant.
As Olga herself said in Berlin: Mamma was so angry because I went to Berlin.

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Anything about her being upset one person survived meaning the others were dead is your own assumption.
Really? Then why was her whole entourage at Villa Hvidöre upset with Herluf Zahle because he had told her about the possibility of AA being her granddaughter? And why was Harriet Rathlef Keilmann's manuscript not shown to her?

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And if they had all been dead but one, do you really think anyone would deny that one because it would make the Dowager sad the others didn't live too? How ridiculous.
Ridiculous in your mind only. That is exactly why Olga wrote her mother's secretary: Poor Mamma, how shall I tell her? This will kill her.

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No the 'someone told her' is logic and common sense since we know she wasn't really AN.
The only problem is, if we REALLY knew, this thread would not exist.

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This is not comparable to your 'it must have been switched because she was not a Polish peasant' which is too weak to even stand on its own.
As far as I can recall, I never said a word about it "being switched".

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So a few people can't accept they or their kin were tricked by a peasant. That doesn't mean they weren't. The DNA proves they were.
As I said before: Until we have a legal decision that AA's putative sample really came from AA, the door is open to other theories.

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never mind the DNA?
You mean that Buxhoeveden did a test?

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Oh, I also found out yesterday- from Kurth's book no less- that AA shared a blood type with FS's sisters!
And I share a blood type with the king of Norway.

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Oh here comes the old Bux betrayal nonsense again. Snore.
Yes, here it is again, and there is nothing you can do to refute it.
  #1860  
Old 09-25-2008, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
As Olga herself said in Berlin: Mamma was so angry because I went to Berlin.
To see a CLAIMANT!

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Ridiculous in your mind only. That is exactly why Olga wrote her mother's secretary: Poor Mamma, how shall I tell her? This will kill her.
I'm sure claimants did her health no good.



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The only problem is, if we REALLY knew, this thread would not exist.
Yes it would, because of you trying to resurrect a legend proven wrong.



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As far as I can recall, I never said a word about it "being switched".
Then tell me how and why the intestine and hair are not hers? And the bone fragments not the fourth grand duchess? If you 'refuse to speculate', you are lower down than even a conspiracy theory, and have NOTHING other than your own odd desire for AA to not be FS.



Quote:
As I said before: Until we have a legal decision that AA's putative sample really came from AA, the door is open to other theories.
Only for whacky or unrealistic people. It's never been taken to court because there's no need! Science has spoken! And the fact that the tests were funded by AA supporters who don't want to pay to prove she wasn't AN, and must feel they can't prove she was or they'd have done it by now.


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And I share a blood type with the king of Norway.
Oh really? How are you privy to his medical info? I share one with my sister. It's true there are only 8 blood types, so a match is not as strong of proof as DNA, however, it is another piece of info in favor of AA being FS.



Quote:
Yes, here it is again, and there is nothing you can do to refute it.
It's been refuted many times. You just can't stand that somebody who knew AN so well laughed at your claimant and you have to try to discredit and damage the rep of a dead woman. AA had a way of making up 'dirt' on all the people who denied her, such as:

Felix Y. trying to kill her
Mountbatten poisoning Rathlef
Gibbes stealing from the family
Bux 'traitor'
Ernie 'spy'{though this rumor was already spreading around and in a book so she didn't make it up, inly used it to her advantage)
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anastasia, anna anderson, dr berenberg-gossler, ekaterinburg, franziska schanzkowska, grand duchess anastasia, pierre gilliard, prince michael romanov


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