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  #1781  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Or as he din´t speak Russian perhaps she was speaking English.
Now, there's a line that would get a big laugh in Europe!

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  #1782  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:46 AM
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Wide awake Chat and can´t resist a little joke now and then.
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  #1783  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:48 AM
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Or as he din´t speak Russian perhaps she was speaking English.
This is the most likely scenario. The majority of Bolsheviks were not educated like the upper classes and were not nearly as knowledgeable on foreign languages. Naturally, since Alexandra had the rep of being 'German woman' and 'German spy' to the revolutionaries, if they heard her speaking a language other than Russian, they would assume it was German. It is most probable they mistook English for German. Of course Alexandra knew German, but it is unrealistic she'd be speaking German to Nicky or especially the kids, since it was the weakest language for them. English and French were just as alien to the Bolsheviks as German, and much more understood by her family. In other books, such as "File on the Tsar", it's mentioned that the family had to stop using 'their usual English" due to the Bolsheviks' demands they use only Russian.

As for the 'evidence' from the 'unpublished' memoirs, let's just say I'm very skeptical until I see it verified by more than one source. I feel the same way about anything compiled by Rathlef-Keillman. Whenever there is only one source that claims to have 'shocking' 'new' evidence that contradicts everything else, yet it cannot be proven, and the 'old' evidence can, I lean toward believing the 'new' one is the one that isn't accurate. In fact, a translation of the memoirs by two friends who are fluent in Russian have revealed none of the quotes you use. Are we to really accept there is another copy out there just like the other one, only with a few extra lines that suit you and AA? How utterly convenient.

On the 'other books' mentioning the train searches, I too have seen that over the years in several places, however, ultimately, there seems to be no real valid verification for it, if the only source is one Swedish traveler who testified for AA. It makes no sense, since the Bolsheviks had denied killing the children. If there had been a search, which I doubt, they would never have revealed to random passengers what they were looking for. Even today, police don't do that, even when questioned. It hurts the case. Think through the logistics here.

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And in spite of the Russian propaganda, AA told nurse Malinovsky about the last night in Ekaterinburg when the whole family was shot.
First, you know I don't believe that nurse story any more than I believe in the Tooth Fairy. Second, by the time "Last Days of the Romanovs" came out in 1920, it was known the whole family died. It was probably even known from the time the White Army took Ekaterinburg. It was only in the days and weeks immediately following the execution that the lies and propaganda alleging the 'survival' of the rest of the family circulated.
  #1784  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
This is the most likely scenario. The majority of Bolsheviks were not educated like the upper classes and were not nearly as knowledgeable on foreign languages. Naturally, since Alexandra had the rep of being 'German woman' and 'German spy' to the revolutionaries, if they heard her speaking a language other than Russian, they would assume it was German. It is most probable they mistook English for German.
And still the same guards would tell about the IF that "they were talking amongst themselves in English." But I do understand that you are grasping for any straw you possibly can.

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Of course Alexandra knew German, but it is unrealistic she'd be speaking German to Nicky or especially the kids, since it was the weakest language for them.
Seems that they understood enough of it, though.

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English and French were just as alien to the Bolsheviks as German, and much more understood by her family. In other books, such as "File on the Tsar", it's mentioned that the family had to stop using 'their usual English" due to the Bolsheviks' demands they use only Russian.
Exactly, and that was why Dr. Derevenko was denied access after the Empress had used German instead of Russian in front of the guards.

Quote:
As for the 'evidence' from the 'unpublished' memoirs, let's just say I'm very skeptical until I see it verified by more than one source. I feel the same way about anything compiled by Rathlef-Keillman. Whenever there is only one source that claims to have 'shocking' 'new' evidence that contradicts everything else, yet it cannot be proven, and the 'old' evidence can, I lean toward believing the 'new' one is the one that isn't accurate. In fact, a translation of the memoirs by two friends who are fluent in Russian have revealed none of the quotes you use. Are we to really accept there is another copy out there just like the other one, only with a few extra lines that suit you and AA? How utterly convenient.
And still you swallow Ian Vorres, Berenberg Gossler et alia line, hook and sinker just because their version fit your view. Interesting.

Quote:
On the 'other books' mentioning the train searches, I too have seen that over the years in several places, however, ultimately, there seems to be no real valid verification for it, if the only source is one Swedish traveler who testified for AA.
Count Carl Bonde was not exactly your average traveller, he was an emissary for the Swedish Red Cross. Princess Helena Petrovna of Russia was also held prisoner at Perm during the autumn of 1918. One day, a young girl calling herself "Anastasia Romanov" was brought to her cell. The Bolsheviks wanted to know if she was, as they suspected, the daugher of Nicholas II. Helena said no, and the girl was taken away.

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It makes no sense, since the Bolsheviks had denied killing the children. If there had been a search, which I doubt, they would never have revealed to random passengers what they were looking for. Even today, police don't do that, even when questioned. It hurts the case. Think through the logistics here.
Seems that they did not care, as long as they had any hopes of catching the runaway.

Quote:
First, you know I don't believe that nurse story any more than I believe in the Tooth Fairy. Second, by the time "Last Days of the Romanovs" came out in 1920, it was known the whole family died. It was probably even known from the time the White Army took Ekaterinburg. It was only in the days and weeks immediately following the execution that the lies and propaganda alleging the 'survival' of the rest of the family circulated.
Of course you don't believe nurse Malinovsky and Dr. Chemnitz, they don't fit into your story. And I am sure someone smuggled "Last Days of the Romanov" into Dalldorf where Fräulein Unbekannt, who had taken a crash course in English, read the whole thing with a flashlight under the covers.
  #1785  
Old 09-23-2008, 11:55 AM
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And still the same guards would tell about the IF that "they were talking amongst themselves in English." But I do understand that you are grasping for any straw you possibly can.
Where are the quotes? IF they're real can you prove they are from the same guards on the same day? All it says is 'guard book' and you have no proof. You also need to consider the Bolshevik guards were not western European and were not exposed to English and German or people who spoke them. They were from the interior of Russia, miles from western Europe, never traveled, had no money, little education, no use for languages. Some were even illiterate. Even today, most Americans, even smart ones, don't know anything about foreign languages because they never have a reason to use them.

And what a joke ME grasping at straws? It's rather tiring trying to watch you scramble for ways to make excuses for AA using German and not English, Russian or French which AN knew well. The real reason, of course, is because she was really FS.


Quote:
Seems that they understood enough of it, though.
It does not say that, does it? You added it.

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Exactly, and that was why Dr. Derevenko was denied access after the Empress had used German instead of Russian in front of the guards.
Makes no sense, does it, since he was Russian.



Quote:
And still you swallow Ian Vorres, Berenberg Gossler et alia line, hook and sinker just because their version fit your view. Interesting.
They have many quotes from people who knew her, not just some random person who came forward when there was money involved.



Quote:
Count Carl Bonde was not exactly your average traveller, he was an emissary for the Swedish Red Cross.
Doesn't matter, he was one person, and no one else can verify the story.

Quote:
Princess Helena Petrovna of Russia was also held prisoner at Perm during the autumn of 1918. One day, a young girl calling herself "Anastasia Romanov" was brought to her cell. The Bolsheviks wanted to know if she was, as they suspected, the daugher of Nicholas II. Helena said no, and the girl was taken away.
Helena also wrote an entire story with one of the goals to prove that AA was a fake. It says so in the forward of her story in "Romanov Autumn."



Quote:
Seems that they did not care, as long as they had any hopes of catching the runaway.
There was no runaway and they knew it. Look at all the accounts, they knew they were all dead. Even the one where they couldn't find the head still knows she was dead. You know I used to believe those fantasy stories too because they were more exiciting than the truth and I wanted to, but now I realize there is no factual basis for any of them and logic contradicts them.



Quote:
Of course you don't believe nurse Malinovsky and Dr. Chemnitz, they don't fit into your story. And I am sure someone smuggled "Last Days of the Romanov" into Dalldorf where Fräulein Unbekannt, who had taken a crash course in English, read the whole thing with a flashlight under the covers.
AA never 'came out' as AN until 1922 AFTER Clara P. had her labeled as Tatiana, Bux said she was too short, and Von Kliest gave her the piece of paper with the names on it and she x'd out all but the one of her height, Anastasia. The nurse story was added later by supporters trying to give her a backup before 1922, but it didn't exist. And the nurse even said 1922 in the paper, because it was a fake story she lost track of timelines. We've been through all this before. The nurse story is fiction. Some things just defy logic because they didn't really happen. The only other explaination for the nurse story is that it actually happened after Clara showed AA the pictures. But no, sorry, there's no way AA magically mentioned being "AN" to a person months before, then did nothing until she was called 'Tatiana'. Also remember, she had no problem being called 'Tatiana' until Bux said she was too short. Any GD wil do in a pinch.
  #1786  
Old 09-23-2008, 12:22 PM
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All I can add is the word dna.......
  #1787  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Where are the quotes? IF they're real can you prove they are from the same guards on the same day? All it says is 'guard book' and you have no proof. You also need to consider the Bolshevik guards were not western European and were not exposed to English and German or people who spoke them. They were from the interior of Russia, miles from western Europe, never traveled, had no money, little education, no use for languages. Some were even illiterate. Even today, most Americans, even smart ones, don't know anything about foreign languages because they never have a reason to use them.

And what a joke ME grasping at straws? It's rather tiring trying to watch you scramble for ways to make excuses for AA using German and not English, Russian or French which AN knew well. The real reason, of course, is because she was really FS.
I think you are the one who has to come up with proof here. All you can come up with, is allegations.

Quote:
Makes no sense, does it, since he was Russian.
If you had done your homework, you would have learned that the guards denied Dr. Derevenko access to the Ipatiev house in order to punish the family for speaking any other language than Russian.

Quote:
They have many quotes from people who knew her, not just some random person who came forward when there was money involved.
In other words: "He said, she said". Funny how valid it becomes when it suits you.

Quote:
Doesn't matter, he was one person, and no one else can verify the story.
Of course it doesn't matter when it goes against your belief. We already know that much.

Quote:
Helena also wrote an entire story with one of the goals to prove that AA was a fake. It says so in the forward of her story in "Romanov Autumn."
That is hardly relevant here, is it?

Quote:
There was no runaway and they knew it.
Seems that there was, otherwise they would not have been searching houses and hospitals around Ekateringburg in additions to trains.

Quote:
Look at all the accounts, they knew they were all dead. Even the one where they couldn't find the head still knows she was dead. You know I used to believe those fantasy stories too because they were more exiciting than the truth and I wanted to, but now I realize there is no factual basis for any of them and logic contradicts them.
I think that whole "we burned two of them" clearly show that they could not account for everybody.

Quote:
AA never 'came out' as AN until 1922 AFTER Clara P. had her labeled as Tatiana,
Sorry, but according to Chemnitz and Malinovsky, she did.

Quote:
Bux said she was too short, and Von Kliest gave her the piece of paper with the names on it and she x'd out all but the one of her height, Anastasia.
It was not von Kleist, but Schwabe who gave her the paper with the names.

Quote:
The nurse story was added later by supporters trying to give her a backup before 1922, but it didn't exist. And the nurse even said 1922 in the paper, because it was a fake story she lost track of timelines. We've been through all this before. The nurse story is fiction. Some things just defy logic because they didn't really happen.
And that is all you can come up with? How about some proof.

Quote:
The only other explaination for the nurse story is that it actually happened after Clara showed AA the pictures.
Clara did not show AA any pictures, she recognized her as Tatiana from and old Berliener Illustrierte.

Quote:
But no, sorry, there's no way AA magically mentioned being "AN" to a person months before, then did nothing until she was called 'Tatiana'. Also remember, she had no problem being called 'Tatiana' until Bux said she was too short. Any GD wil do in a pinch.
There was nothing magical about it. And nothing was done about it since the nurses were sworn to secrecy. The only person Malinovsky told, was Dr. Chemnitz, but he just told her that it was exactly what one would expect to hear in an asylum.
  #1788  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:28 PM
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I am not in the least surprised that they searched houses and hospitals in Ekaterinberg, they would be looking for aristocrats and not only members of the IRF. They might have heard there were some witnesses to the murder.
  #1789  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:36 PM
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I am not in the least surprised that they searched houses and hospitals in Ekaterinberg, they would be looking for aristocrats and not only members of the IRF. They might have heard there were some witnesses to the murder.
According to witness H. Kleibenzetl, the soldiers were specifically looking for Anastasia. According to princess Helena, they wanted her to identify Anastasia. According to Carl Bonde, the soldiers were looking for Anastasia.
And what aristocrats were they looking for again?
  #1790  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:46 PM
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I think they were looking for any they could find......
  #1791  
Old 09-23-2008, 01:47 PM
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I think they were looking for any they could find......
Seems to me they were not the only ones to look for that!
  #1792  
Old 09-23-2008, 02:46 PM
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I have no idea who AA was, but as you said Menaure DNA..she wasn't Anastasia.
  #1793  
Old 09-23-2008, 02:48 PM
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Chat- I will no longer entertain the ficticious and/or out of timeline 'nurse' story. I also don't even dignify the even more ficticious Heinrich K. story with a response. Don't you see they were trying to come up with anyone and anything to back up their stories? Isn't it interesting it was foreigers, from Sweden(train) and Austria,(saw in the bed across the street) who just 'happened' to have this earthshaking infor? It's clear these people were put up to say these things, and there is and never was any truth to them!

As far as YOU asking ME for proof, you really have some nerve, considering you have no case at all if you can't PROVE that the DNA- in ALL the tests in ALL the labs- was switched.

On the night of the murders, the entire town was on lockdown, and those who disobeyed would get the death penalty!

An affidavit from Sir Thomas Preston, who was British Consul-General in Ekaterinburg at the time of the Romanov murders, reveals:

"On the night of the murder a curfew had been imposed, forbidding anybody to appear in the streets after 8 p.m. on pain of death, a regulation which nobody who valued his life would have dared to disobey. In these circumstances we are asked to believe that Svboda 'and his friend' were able to produce a hourse and cart, to (enter) the House Ipatiev, identify and bring out the wounded Anastasia (whom they had never seen before), and take her to a house nearby when every house in the vicinity was under the strictest surveillance of the ubiquitous agents of the Tcheka."(Vorres, pp. 244-245)

Too many times, AA supporters must believe that the Bolsheviks and the Cheka were as stupid, blind and bungling as the 'wet bandits' from "Home Alone." Sorry, it wasn't that easy.
  #1794  
Old 09-23-2008, 02:50 PM
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I have no idea who AA was, but as you said Menaure DNA..she wasn't Anastasia.
According to my Peter, he says "She was who she was. . . "
  #1795  
Old 09-23-2008, 02:54 PM
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I have no idea who AA was, but as you said Menaure DNA..she wasn't Anastasia.
Have you seen this picture comparison? (FS left, AA right)

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra.../anisfran2.jpg

This combined with the DNA matching FS's family with 99.9% accuracy is a very strong case she was indeed FS, as the detectives found in the 20's.
  #1796  
Old 09-23-2008, 02:56 PM
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Chat- I will no longer entertain the ficticious and/or out of timeline 'nurse' story.
I don't think anybody cares what you entertain or not. We have the testimonies from Malinovsky and Chemnitz. That the Nachtausgabe changed (willfully or not) the date of AA's confession, is totally insignificant, since AA was far away from Dalldorf in fall of 1922.

Quote:
I also don't even dignify the even more ficticious Heirich K. story with a response. Don't you see they were trying to come up with anyone and anything to back up their stories? Isn't it interesting it was foreigers, from Sweden and Austria, who just 'happened' to have this earthshaking infor? It's clear these people were put up to say these things, and there is and never wasy any truth to them!
Well, it so happened that mr. Kleibenzetl also had the papers to prove that he was working in the Popov house at the time. Six hours of badgering by the judges could not poke a single hole in his story.

Quote:
As far as YOU asking ME for proof, you really have some nerve, considering you have no case at all if you can't PROVE that the DNA- in ALL the tests in ALL the labs- was switched.
Maybe it was the SOMEONES who told her everything who tampered with the samples........

Quote:
On the night of the murders, the entire town was on lockdown, and those who disobeyed would get the death penalty!

An affidavit from Sir Thomas Preston, who was British Consul-General in Ekaterinburg at the time of the Romanov murders, reveals:

"On the night of the murder a curfew had been imposed, forbidding anybody to appear in the streets after 8 p.m. on pain of death, a regulation which nobody who valued his life would have dared to disobey. In these circumstances we are asked to believe that Svboda 'and his friend' were able to produce a hourse and cart, to (enter) the House Ipatiev, identify and bring out the wounded Anastasia (whom they had never seen before), and take her to a house nearby when every house in the vicinity was under the strictest surveillance of the ubiquitous agents of the Tcheka."(Vorres, pp. 244-245)


And if you check your records, you will find that Sir Preston was nowhere near Ekaterinburg that night.

Quote:
Too many times, AA supporters must believe that the Bolsheviks and the Cheka were as stupid, blind and bungling as the 'wet bandits' from "Home Alone." Sorry, it wasn't that easy.
That is a very apt description of them.
  #1797  
Old 09-23-2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Have you seen this picture comparison? (FS left, AA right)

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra.../anisfran2.jpg

This combined with the DNA matching FS's family with 99.9% accuracy is a very strong case she was indeed FS, as the detectives found in the 20's.
Yes, I have seen that picture comparison, and I see two different women.
How about this one:

  #1798  
Old 09-23-2008, 03:02 PM
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That the Nachtausgabe changed (willfully or not) the date of AA's confession, is totally insignificant, since AA was far away from Dalldorf in fall of 1922.
You cannot prove this, it's only your excuse. The story was false, and that's why she couldn't get the dates straight. You have to resort to accusing the newspaper of falsifying, and telling it as if it were a fact!



Quote:
Well, it so happened that mr. Kleibenzetl also had the papers to prove that he was working in the Popov house at the time. Six hours of badgering by the judges could not poke a single hole in his story.
Even if he was there, he never saw a shot AN in a bed across the street, since gthat never happened. AA was dead on the truck with the rest of them. It's also interesting that AA supporters even bother to condone his story, since it doesn't even fit in with her 'escape' story! But of course, it's been changed so many times, and it's fake anyway, so it hardly matters.



Quote:
Maybe it was the SOMEONES who told her everything who tampered with the samples........
Because of the dna, we know she had to have been told things. We can even see in books things she copied. There is absolutely no evidence at all against the DNA other than your rabid desire for AA to be AN. We have NO evidence, proof, suspects, or even any direct allegations of misconduct or wrongdoing. Everything was on the level, yet you continue to say it wasn't. You can't do that without even an alternative theory! Remember, it's not just for the intestines, but the hair, and the bone fragments found last year. Do you really believe there is some mysterious rich perosn out there paying EVERYONE off and what would the purpose be? And who are they? You have NOTHING!
  #1799  
Old 09-23-2008, 03:04 PM
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Chat, I am not playing pictures with you. No need to drag out your old blurry, shadowy, obviously posed and lip biting picture of FS/AA trying to imitate AN's expression.We have been through all this before, and there's no need to clog the thread again. If anyone wants to see my comparisons they can look on my site. Here's my link:



Anna Anderson: Exposed! | The Fact, Fiction and Fantasy surrounding the myth of "Anastasia"

The biggest giveaway is AA/FS's huge, wide, thick, shapeless lips, very different from AN' small, thin, shapely ones. Also note AN's long, curved chin as opposed to AA's short, flat one. No wonder she ran around most of the time with a hanky covering her lower face!
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Old 09-23-2008, 03:10 PM
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If anyone is interested in some wild excuses why the DNA didn't match, read pages 322-323 of Frances Welch's "A Romanov Fantasy"


http://books.google.com/books?id=zMH...URyg#PPA322,M1

also note on page 318 it tells how Kurth fully supported the hair samples of AA until they proved not to match the royal family.
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