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  #1601  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post


She was in the psychiatric ward for examination. And that's all.
The news stories clearly tell that her court appointed guardian put her in there, and that Jack feared her being taken to a mental institution. There had to be a reason for that. You keep claiming that she was only in for 'observation' and that she was being sent to a regular hospital instead, yet you have no proof and the news stories contradict your claims.
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  #1602  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
The news stories clearly tell that her court appointed guardian put her in there, and that Jack feared her being taken to a mental institution. There had to be a reason for that. You keep claiming that she was only in for 'observation' and that she was being sent to a regular hospital instead, yet you have no proof and the news stories contradict your claims.
I know that you are dying to have her declared insane, but, she was not. Only unable to care for herself. During her whole life, she was NEVER declared mentally ill. NEVER!
Live with it.
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  #1603  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:29 AM
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Not word of mouth, but evidence from Felix. And you know nothing about what AN would have done, so stop speculating. FS would definitely have chosen German since it was the only language she spoke. And she spoke it well.
It may be a piece of evidence for consideration, but not proof. It is, in the end, just something somebody said. How do you know how well FS spoke German? Oh that's right, because she was AA and AA chose to use it. My guess is that the reason AA sounded the way she did is because she was biligual Kashub Polish and German, and then was forced due to her claim to learn other languages she never had a real aptitude for (like English)


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As for being a traitor, I have only read the testimony from Russian archives.
This has been discussed at length and never proven to be true. The woman had no money, and the Bolsheviks never knew about the jewels until the night of the murder.



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No, I am only trying to disprove everything she said, I am only reporting what historians have found out about her.
From a certain point of view only.

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And if you are safe in your DNA belief, why are you trying so hard to fight all the other evidence?
Because you and a few others deny the DNA, as outrageously unrealistic as that is. Most people of my position don't bother to fight, they just let the DNA do the talking. I know that won't be enough for some so I try to point out other holes in the story that counteract the other evidence. Too often the story is left that she was exactly like AN and everyone accepted her yet the DNA proved her fake. This is not accurate, and I want to explain why.


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No, I haven't got it. Sorry. I still want to know who told her all these things.
You will never know, since no one leaves a paper trail of fraud. You're never going to find a link or a page number for this. Also, some of it may have been acquired innocently in conversations with emigres' and not intentionally fed (though most of it probably was) In the end, the fact is, AA has been proven not to be AN, and all the bodies have been found, therefore AA was not AN and had to have gotten her info from others. It's common sense and logical deduction.
  #1604  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
I know that you are dying to have her declared insane, but, she was not. Only unable to care for herself. During her whole life, she was NEVER declared mentally ill. NEVER!
Live with it.
All I'm saying is that as FS she was declared insane, her behavior was insane throughout her life, from her suicide attempt to her old age and in between, she had many brushes with the 'men in little white coats' that average sane people don't have, and where there's smoke there's fire, or as you say, if it walks like a duck...
  #1605  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
We don't know that AA was not a servant in the palace at some time. As we don't know who she is.
I really think the evidence strongly supports her being FS. The DNA matched the FS family with 99.9% accuracy, she disappeared in the same time frame and in the same place AA showed up, detectives in the 20's found her to be FS, and their faces are identical, right down to the eyebrows that fade at the arch and the hair part! FS left, AA right:

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...s/franisan.jpg

In 1994, Geoffrey Oxlee, who has been used by the British military and courts as an expert witness in forensic facial identification, used computer techniques to determine AA and FS were one and the same based on their faces.
  #1606  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Yet when you really compare pictures that aren't blurred, shadowy or posed, their faces actually look nothing alike.
Blurred, shadowy and posed are the excuses you use to explain the obvious likeness between AA and AN. It is nice to know that even you can see it.

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I doubt the voice, too, since the languages and accents were so different, and that so few people had heard the real AN talk enough to be a judge of it.
You may doubt all you want, that is your right. But the Botkins both recognized her voice immediately. She did also, according to Botkin, have that special English accent when speaking Russian. And remember captain Dassell? He recognized her "squirrel-like laughter". And remember Gertrude Schanzkowski who shook AA, and AA protested. GS said, "but that is not Franzisca's voice."

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Also, the handwriting didn't look like hers, and there are pictures to prove it.
Tell that to Lucy Weizsäcker and Minna Becker, two expert graphologists who both ruled that AA and AN's writings came from the same hand.

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The memories could have come from anyone who got away from Russia and there were half a million Russian emigres' in Berlin in 1920. So this really isn't nearly as special as you make it seem.
And still later on, you write about how secluded the family was and that so few people knew the girls. So who were these people who knew the intimates about the IF?

Quote:
There were three main reasons why it succeeded so long when others didn't:

1. She had BACKING- the kids of the family doctor, niece and nephew of the head of the Russian emigre' community (Botkins), writers who championed her cause, and financial supporters. Others didn't have such connections.
The Botkins did nothing but write to the family, and were rebuffed at once. They had no money and could not help out financially. There were, in fact, no financial supporters, AA livet as a pauper for most of her life.

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2. Thanks to the writers, and the lawsuit, she became a media phenomenon people wanted to believe instead of just another claimant.
Yes, she became a celebrity for all the wrong reasons, and it did not help her cause one bit.

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3. She claimed to know of secret bank accounts holding lots of money- others didn't have the lure of cash on their side. Grandanor corporation and her lawsuit (and don't anyone try to say it wasn't about money) drew supporters and hangers-on in hopes of a payoff if she won.
The bank accounts were never found. The Grandanor corporatin was only to pay Edward Fallows for his work, and the only ones who stood to gain, were the initial investors, of which there were few. I would like to know the names of the supporters and hangers-on who hoped for a payoff. So far, you have presented allegations only, but now I want names.

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4. The fact that since the family was so private and reclusive, Anastasia never attended any schools with large numbers of students who could have known her well, and because of the war and revolution she never got her 'coming out' to society, VERY FEW people actually knew the real Anastasia well enough to be an honest judge of her.
Yes, like the Botkins, Lili Dehn, Felix Dassel, Alexis Volkov, Xenia Leeds, etc.

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Add to this that there were four sisters of the same age range, and some people didn't really know enough to distinguish one from another. This is why it was easier to pass her off as a generic Grand Duchess than Anastasia herself. Look at some of the comments from some of those who 'accepted' her- 'she had the eyes of the Tsar'- 'she waved goodbye like my Empress' - 'she raised her hand to be kissed like a true lady of breeding'- NONE of this is unique to ANASTASIA herself. People wanted to believe, and maybe filled in some gaps with things that weren't really there.
Yes, and "she never looked straight at you, but glanced at you form the corner of her eye with a roguish look on her face. It was exactly the same as before.." (Tanya Botkin)
"She broke out in a little laugh that sounded a bit sitfled to me, a bit jerky, buit exactly, exactly the same as before." (Felix Dassel.)
"That was just like the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna, who was mad about perfume. In earlier days she used to cover her Shura with it so that she might be 'as fragrant as a bouquet of flowers." (Shura Gilliard.)

Does not sound generic to me.....

Quote:
So it was a combination of:

1. the lure of MONEY
2. MEDIA attention
3. Wishful thinking/nostalgia for the past/desire for SOMEONE to have survived
4. interest in a fascinating 'lost princess' story, WANTING to believe because it was more fun than reality
5. the lack of enough people who knew the actual Anastasia well enough to be an accurate judge of who was and wasn't her
6. those who accepted her refusing to ever admit they were wrong/had been fooled by a Polish peasant
And as you can see, you are wrong on all points.
  #1607  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I really think the evidence strongly supports her being FS. The DNA matched the FS family with 99.9% accuracy, she disappeared in the same time frame and in the same place AA showed up, detectives in the 20's found her to be FS, and their faces are identical, right down to the eyebrows that fade at the arch and the hair part! FS left, AA right:
What evidence?

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...s/franisan.jpg

Quote:
In 1994, Geoffrey Oxlee, who has been used by the British military and courts as an expert witness in forensic facial identification, used computer techniques to determine AA and FS were one and the same based on their faces.
Yes, by comparing ONE photo of AA to ONE photo (unauthenticated) of FS. Very scientific.
  #1608  
Old 09-03-2008, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
All I'm saying is that as FS she was declared insane, her behavior was insane throughout her life, from her suicide attempt to her old age and in between, she had many brushes with the 'men in little white coats' that average sane people don't have, and where there's smoke there's fire, or as you say, if it walks like a duck...
Is that all you can come up with? Her behavior was insane? Let's have a few examples of insane behavior here. And the many brushes with the men in white coats? The only men in white coats she saw, were legitimate doctors, and all of them gave her a certificate of sanity. Except for the ones who were paid off by the Jennings clan and never examined her.
  #1609  
Old 09-03-2008, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Blurred, shadowy and posed are the excuses you use to explain the obvious likeness between AA and AN. It is nice to know that even you can see it.
Nope. Take a look at my picture comparisons.


Quote:
You may doubt all you want, that is your right. But the Botkins both recognized her voice immediately. She did also, according to Botkin, have that special English accent when speaking Russian. And remember captain Dassell? He recognized her "squirrel-like laughter". And remember Gertrude Schanzkowski who shook AA, and AA protested. GS said, "but that is not Franzisca's voice."
So that's where the 'squirrel' comment came from, a person who only met her a few times. I'm not even going to bother with the Botkins, you know what I think, and of course any FS family member would have to keep denying her once they did initially, you know my position on that too. None of this proves a thing.



Quote:
Tell that to Lucy Weizsäcker and Minna Becker, two expert graphologists who both ruled that AA and AN's writings came from the same hand.
The courts denied Becker's results. Here's the handwriting proving it looks more like FS's than AN's:

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...skoe/hand1.jpg

top= AN
center=FS
bottom=AA



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And still later on, you write about how secluded the family was and that so few people knew the girls. So who were these people who knew the intimates about the IF?
A lot of people could have known stories and the interior of the palace, and peoples' names, but not known the girls closely. And you know I believe the Botkin kids were big informants.


Quote:
The Botkins did nothing but write to the family, and were rebuffed at once. They had no money and could not help out financially. There were, in fact, no financial supporters, AA livet as a pauper for most of her life.
Yes, AA's case broke them, but I bet they had hopes of a payoff originally! Gleb was a director of "Grandanor" (source: Frances Welch's book)



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Yes, she became a celebrity for all the wrong reasons, and it did not help her cause one bit.
Yes it did. Berenberg-Gossler said fighting her case at the time the movie came out was impossible since people wanted to believe the movie version and didn't want to think she was a fake.



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The bank accounts were never found.
They didn't exist, but people hoped they did!

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Yes, like the Botkins, Lili Dehn, Felix Dassel, Alexis Volkov, Xenia Leeds, etc.
in on it, old and nostalgic and denied by the daughter, Von Kliest's daughter said he told her the pocket story, felt Rathlef was suspect and made excuses for her many errors, only met her a few times as a child.

Quote:
Does not sound generic to me.....
You should know by now not to bother to quote the Botkins to me. Would you like a long list of quotes by those who said they were nothing alike? Just go to my site, I don't have time to keep rehashing. Apparently you have nothing else to do.



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And as you can see, you are wrong on all points.
Oh I don't think so.
  #1610  
Old 09-03-2008, 12:20 PM
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I have given you many, MANY examples of her insane behavior, including the rooftop tirade at the Jennings'. Is your memory really that short or do you just enjoy playing games with me?
  #1611  
Old 09-03-2008, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
See my last post. (pictures, DNA, detectives, circumstances)



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Yes, by comparing ONE photo of AA to ONE photo (unauthenticated) of FS. Very scientific.
Well whoever is in that picture, she looked exactly like AA!
  #1612  
Old 09-03-2008, 12:38 PM
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[quote=Anna was Franziska;818527]See my last post. (pictures, DNA, detectives, circumstances)

You mean the unauthenticated photo of FS? That nobody connected to AA's until Oxlee came around?
You mean the DNA from a putative source? You mean detective Martin Knopf who told Doris Wingender that FS's reappearance had to be changed from spring to August, so they compromised and said "summer"? The same Martin Knopf who had all of AA's clothing and then lost it all? The same Martin Knopf who doctored the photos for court?
The circumstances? You mean that FS was the only woman they could come up with who disappeared within three weeks of AA's appearance?

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Well whoever is in that picture, she looked exactly like AA!
No, she definitely did not.
  #1613  
Old 09-03-2008, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I have given you many, MANY examples of her insane behavior, including the rooftop tirade at the Jennings'. Is your memory really that short or do you just enjoy playing games with me?
You have given me NO examples of INSANE behaviour. NONE!
  #1614  
Old 09-03-2008, 01:49 PM
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Hey guys, we all know you disagree and nothing either of you post will convince the other. That's OK, but please avoid the repetitive and pointless "I have/No you haven't" type of posting as it just reinforces the circular nature of this discussion and offers nothing constructive.

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  #1615  
Old 09-03-2008, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Nope. Take a look at my picture comparisons.
I have. They are always good for a laugh.

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So that's where the 'squirrel' comment came from, a person who only met her a few times.
A few times? He was a patient in the hospital for weeks, and later he was retained by the tsarina as an adjutant to the girls. He knew AN very well. As a matter of fact, he wrote a pamphlet called Anastasia Lebt! But the whole edition was mysteriously bought up soon after its appearance and disappeared from circulation. When Dassel in 1928 traveled through Hesse, he was arrested for no reason. Somebody must have been very afraid of his testimony....!

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I'm not even going to bother with the Botkins, you know what I think,
Yes, but what you think is hardly relevant.

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and of course any FS family member would have to keep denying her once they did initially, you know my position on that too. None of this proves a thing.
It proves that nobody of the Schankowski's claimed her as their sister.

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The courts denied Becker's results.
The court did not deny Becker's results, they just decided not to follow the advise of their appointed expert.

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A lot of people could have known stories and the interior of the palace, and peoples' names, but not known the girls closely.
And who would these be? You really should be prepared to name some names now, otherwise you should stop your meaningless allegations.

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And you know I believe the Botkin kids were big informants.
Yes, very likely considering that they met AA long after Harriet Rathlef Keilmann had filled her book with AA's memories.

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Yes, AA's case broke them, but I bet they had hopes of a payoff originally! Gleb was a director of "Grandanor" (source: Frances Welch's book)
AA's case broke them? How? And Gleb was not a director of Grandanor. What Welch writes, is that Fallows planned a corporation in August of 1928 "with Gleb as director". (She does not disclose where she got this from.) What she neglects to write, is that when Grandanor was incorporated on February 9, 1929, AA and Gleb Botkin had not been on speaking terms for some time, and were not to see each other again for the next 10 years.

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Yes it did. Berenberg-Gossler said fighting her case at the time the movie came out was impossible since people wanted to believe the movie version and didn't want to think she was a fake.
And that was his lament. And he did not say it was impossible, he just complained over press coverage.

Quote:
in on it, old and nostalgic and denied by the daughter, Von Kliest's daughter said he told her the pocket story, felt Rathlef was suspect and made excuses for her many errors, only met her a few times as a child.
What??

Quote:
You should know by now not to bother to quote the Botkins to me.
Yes, I will quote the Botkins till the cows come home, they are important witnesses although they may be the flies in your ointment.

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Would you like a long list of quotes by those who said they were nothing alike?
Go right ahead, but make sure they are reliable.
  #1616  
Old 09-03-2008, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Hey guys, we all know you disagree and nothing either of you post will convince the other. That's OK, but please avoid the repetitive and pointless "I have/No you haven't" type of posting as it just reinforces the circular nature of this discussion and offers nothing constructive.

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I think I am justified in asking for proof here.
  #1617  
Old 09-03-2008, 02:42 PM
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I think I am justified in asking for proof here.
I think what he means, Chat, is that no matter what, it always goes in circles. You ask me to post something, and I do, or someone else does, then a couple days later, you say the same thing, ask for proof, we post it, you ignore it, turn around a few pages later and ask the same things, or you post the same old lists we've already answered and we have to answer them again, and we go in circles. Remember this is why I told you I shut down my AA forum, not because you 'beat' me as you like to believe, but because the circular dog chashing his tail motion was aggravating, pointless and headed nowhere. If you read back through this thread and others here, (and I do challenge anyone to do this if they don't believe me) and see just how many times each topic/quote/issue has been discussed and answered, only to pop back up 2 pages later as you ask the same questions I've already answered, post the same links, quote the same quotes, and you always come right back like it never happened and say you know nothing about it. How many times have we posted the same quotes by Olga? I could post a whole long list now of things you have said I didn't answer, but I had already answered several times. This is why I said, is your memory really that short, or are you just playing games with me? I don't want to be rude, but it seems you are either playing games, or are so completely in denial that your mind blocks out things that have been posted that don't bode well for AA. I know that by playing the game I am guilty of dragging the forum down too, and I'm sorry for that.It's very frustrating, and is it any wonder most others avoid these threads?
  #1618  
Old 09-03-2008, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I think what he means, Chat, is that no matter what, it always goes in circles. You ask me to post something, and I do, or someone else does, then a couple days later, you say the same thing, ask for proof, we post it, you ignore it, turn around a few pages later and ask the same things, or you post the same old lists we've already answered and we have to answer them again, and we go in circles. Remember this is why I told you I shut down my AA forum, not because you 'beat' me as you like to believe, but because the circular dog chashing his tail motion was aggravating, pointless and headed nowhere. If you read back through this thread and others here, (and I do challenge anyone to do this if they don't believe me) and see just how many times each topic/quote/issue has been discussed and answered, only to pop back up 2 pages later as you ask the same questions I've already answered, post the same links, quote the same quotes, and you always come right back like it never happened and say you know nothing about it. How many times have we posted the same quotes by Olga? I could post a whole long list now of things you have said I didn't answer, but I had already answered several times. This is why I said, is your memory really that short, or are you just playing games with me? I don't want to be rude, but it seems you are either playing games, or are so completely in denial that your mind blocks out things that have been posted that don't bode well for AA. I know that by playing the game I am guilty of dragging the forum down too, and I'm sorry for that.It's very frustrating, and is it any wonder most others avoid these threads?
If you only could post something else than your personal beliefs, like "I don't believe it", "You know what I think about them", "It didn't happen" and so on and so on. Back up your claims with some kind of proof.
  #1619  
Old 09-03-2008, 05:14 PM
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Chat, I have given you direct links and quotes, most recently in this thread to two news stories, and you ignore them. I have given you quotes from articles and books with page numbers and so have Anastasia evidence and others, and you still ignore it and come back with exactly the same rhetoric. If you don't see that, I'm afraid you are either blinded by delusion, have a short memory span, or are playing games with me.

Sure, sometimes I have to give the answer 'we know because we know AA wasn't AN", but at least this is a proven fact. You write things off to somebody being paid off by Ernie, out to get AA, cheat AA, and worst of all, something 'must' have been wrong with the DNA since you don't believe she wasn't AN, yet you NO proof or even theories as to who did this and how and when it happened, and you deny the bones found last year are authentic, so you have no room to talk about basing things on your own beliefs with NO proof!
  #1620  
Old 09-03-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Chat, I have given you direct links and quotes, most recently in this thread to two news stories, and you ignore them.
No, I do not "ignore" them, it is just that none of them give any proof that AA was found to be mentally ill.

Quote:
I have given you quotes from articles and books with page numbers and so have Anastasia evidence and others, and you still ignore it and come back with exactly the same rhetoric. If you don't see that, I'm afraid you are either blinded by delusion, have a short memory span, or are playing games with me.
So far, you have given me your own opinions. Not much more.

Quote:
Sure, sometimes I have to give the answer 'we know because we know AA wasn't AN", but at least this is a proven fact.
Proven? Where?

Quote:
You write things off to somebody being paid off by Ernie,
No, I do not write things off, I quote you the witnesses who knew what Ernie shelled out and to whom.

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out to get AA,
Who was out to get her?

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cheat AA,
Again, whom are you talking about?

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and worst of all, something 'must' have been wrong with the DNA since you don't believe she wasn't AN,
Not the DNA, but maybe the source.

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yet you NO proof or even theories as to who did this and how and when it happened,
And I am not offering any since I do not want to speculate on this.

Quote:
and you deny the bones found last year are authentic, so you have no room to talk about basing things on your own beliefs with NO proof!
And in which post did I deny the bones found last year?
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