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  #1561  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tsarskoe View Post
With regards to AA's mental health. Certainly she was considered very volatile by many of her own supporters, which they attributed to her traumatic experiences etc. Her opponents point out that she went on many tirades, especially in the mid to late 1920's. On her New York balcony she was reported to have run about nude during at least one of these bouts, while on another she trod over one of her beloved birds and went into hysterics.

Supporter and care tender Harriet von Ratlef Keilmann who willingly suffered many of AA's ill tempered remarks and outbursts wrote in frustration: "She's either crazy or truly wicked" (Kurth, 132)

Ambassador Zhale after reading a report from Dr. Eitel cabled to Serge Botkin "Invalid's (AA) mental state is alarming" (Kurth,155)

AA mentally stability certainly seems questionable-at least at certain times in her life. Regardless of the reason she did suffer from mood instability. Without a doubt she suffered from paranoia (Again why is another matter altogether). She was constantly claiming that she was being poisoned etc. (Kurth, 196)
It is no secret that her nerves were in a sorry state. And her paranoia never left her. All signs of a traumatic experience.
As a matter of fact, when Lucy Weizsäcker got her handwriting for analysis, she reported that the writing seemed to belong to a person who had gone through a severe shock.
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  #1562  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Parts from the Hook article, more about her weirdness and paranoia:

The Hook - COVER- Jack & Anna: Remembering the czar of Charlottesville eccentrics

Anastasia believed the KGB wanted to kill her, and among other weird aversions, she would not eat from anything metal. Which explains why their battered old station wagon was always full of empty Styrofoam trays.


This seems to have been Jack Manahan's belief more than AA's.

Quote:
During competency hearings for Anna in 1983, the Daily Progress reported, Jack testified that Anna did not like strangers and believed that artificially heated houses spread germs and disease.
Quote:
Even though Jack was well off on paper, he didn't seem to have much cash. So he would drag pieces of wood-- from limbs to whole trees-- into the house and feed them into the fireplace.

But wood wasn't all that was burned there. The neighbor-- like a young man who testified at a later trial-- reported that if one of the 20-plus cats died, Anastasia cremated it in the fireplace.


Was the young man ever invited into the house?

Quote:
That year, Anna's condition had worsened such that in October, when both of the Manahans were found suffering from Rocky Mountain spotted fever in the living room of the University Circle house, a Charlottesville judge appointed a legal guardian for her, and he had her admitted to the University's Blue Ridge Hospital psychiatric ward. Jack was able to take care of himself but not her.


Still no verdict of insanity.

Quote:
Then, on Tuesday, November 29, 1983, the story of Jack and Anna took a bizarre turn: Jack abducted her from the facility.
Quote:
Once again, the story of a missing princess roiled the media and rekindled interest in the Anastasia legend. "Authorities stymied in search for Manahans," read one Progress headline. Three days later, Anna and Jack were found living in the beat-up blue station wagon parked in front of an abandoned Amherst farmhouse screened from Route 29 by trees.
The station wagon had broken down, and Jack had been walking back and forth between the car and Pappy's restaurant in Amherst where people had become suspicious and called the police. Even though it was December, the deputy who drove them back to Charlottesville said he had to keep the windows open because of the stench-- the enfeebled Anna had not had the use of a bathroom. Jack said he abducted her because he was afraid she would be stuck in a mental institution. A source alleges that Jack paid an attendant at the hospital $1,500 for assistance in spiriting his wife away.
And who was this source?
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  #1563  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:28 PM
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As an item of interest: I think there is a little discussion forum attached to this article. And there are the words from an old friend/neighbor who remembered when Anastasia and Jack Manahan would come to visit, and Anastasia would speak Russian.
  #1564  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post


Still no verdict of insanity.
That's because he got her away in time.

Quote:

And who was this source?
Must have been somebody at the hospital. Only the bribe is alleged, his statement of believing she'd be put away was something else. He said it. If you want to know more, write to the author of the HOOK article and ask him.

Quote:
As an item of interest: I think there is a little discussion forum attached to this article. And there are the words from an old friend/neighbor who remembered when Anastasia and Jack Manahan would come to visit, and Anastasia would speak Russian.
That forum is heavily laden with AA supporters, some of them are probably the same person more than once (like the one who trolled my guestbook under 16 different names and the same IP) So it's possible they were helping her out. Some people who met her want to believe she was for real, because maybe their own lives are a little less special if she wasn't.

Also, most people in America don't know much about languages, or what Russian sounds like, so they'd be fooled into believing any foreign language was Russian. Another visitor, who knew Russian (I can't find this source now but I'll keep trying) said that AA 'spoke to her dogs in a language I had never heard before.' My guess is it was Kashub Polish.
Dave Howey, who met Anderson/Mrs. Manahan when he was a cadet at a Virginia military academy in 1977, wrote of their meeting that "Her husband talked for her since she spoke very little English. Her only functional language was German, her Russian having been wiped out, we were told, as a result of the trauma from seeing her family gunned down in the cellar of a house in Ekaterinburg, Russia."
  #1565  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:46 PM
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Here is an article from the Daily Progress (Dec. 3, 1983) discussing the "kidnapping" of Anna Anderson by John Manahan. The quote about him being afraid of her being committed came from Michael Cox, the Amherst county Sheriff himself:

"ANASTASIA" IS FOUND; HUSBAND WILL FACE CHARGE

AMHERST, VA-- An 82 year old woman who claims to be Anastasia--the youngest daughter and sole heir of Czar Nicholas II of Russia--has been found bundled in blankets in a car, three days after disappearing with her husband from a Charlottesville hospital.

Amherst County Sheriff Michael Cox said he found Anna Anderson Manahan yesterday in the front seat of a car that had broken down. The car was parked in front of an abandoned house screened by trees from nearby U.S. 29.

Her husband, John E. Manahan, 64, was taken into custody on an abduction charge.

"She seemed to be all right. She was talking in a foreign language much of the time*....She appeared to be a little incoherent," said Cox.

He said Manahan walked up to the house about 15 minutes later and said he'd been looking for someone to help with the car.

"He said, 'Well, I see I've been caught,' and I said, 'Yes, you have," said Cox. "He was no trouble at all."

Cox said Mrs. Manahan and her husband were turned over to authorities from Albemarle County, about 40 miles to the northeast.

Officer J. Guthrie, a dispatcher at the Albemarle sheriff's office, said Mrs. Manahan was returned to the University of Virginia's Blue Ridge Hospital in Charlottesville.

Manahan, a retired historian, was charged with abduction in a warrant issued Wednesday in Albemarle. He allegedly took his wife Tuesday from the Blue Ridge Hospital, where she was being treated for severe arthritis, anemia, and senility.

Manahan was taken to the Albemarle sheriff's office and later appeared for a bond hearing in the county court. He was released on a $1000 personal recognizance bond and told he will not be allowed to visit his wife without permission of the hospital and her guardian, attorney William C. Preston.

Manahan "said he was very concerned for her welfare," Cox said. "He said that's why he took her away. He said he was afraid she would be committed to a mental institution."

Preston said Mrs. Manahan would not be institutionalized if Manahan cooperates "in finding a viable solution."

Mrs. Manahan contends that Grand Duchess Anastasia was not killed when Czar Nicholas II's family was massacred by Bolshevik soldiers in July 1918. Mrs. Manahan came to Charlottesville in 1968 and married Manahan a year later.

Cox said an employee of a restaurant a quarter-mile from the abandoned house telephoned his office about a man who had purchased food there Thursday and yesterday.

The sheriff said the employee at Pappy's Restaurant noticed Thursday an elderly woman was slumped in the front seat of the man's car, which was parked outside the restaurant.

The same man returned to the restaurant on foot to buy food yesterday. The employee, whose name Cox did not know, noticed that the man walked off across a field.

"They remembered that it was the same guy that was with the old lady in the car yesterday and they had read in the paper about Anastasia being missing and they thought there might be some connection," said Cox.

Cox said he remembered there was an old vacant house in the area and decided to check.

He said it was unclear if the couple had spent their time since leaving Charlottesville in the house.

The End

*see I told you most Americans can't tell one foreign language from another!
  #1566  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
So her toe "bent over in the middle, forming a bunion" from a season planting asparagus or some months in a bottle washing factory or working as a waitress?
It could be. FS left home to work in Berlin in 1914 when the war broke out, that gave her feet six years to get that way.



Quote:
It was actually the word of two doctors.
Yet, as Elspeth has shown us, there is no medical basis for any of it.

Quote:
And it was not only Felix who attested to her feet, but also her mother and sister Gertrude who lived with FS for some time in Berlin.
You have to remember and consider these people had denied her, for her and their own good, and were afraid of their lies getting them into trouble (according to Klier and Mingay, even today the descendants fear prosection for FS/AA's fraud and that's why they are reluctant to discuss it) so they weren't likely to beat a path to her door by denying her, then accepting everything about her which would paint her as their relative. They had to 'cover themselves'. This is why I disregard what the family said in their denials.
  #1567  
Old 09-02-2008, 03:57 PM
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Gilliard said that Anastasia "knew no German". We know that was a lie, he himself scheduled her and her sisters for German lessons as late as Tobolsk.
This is all based on your assumptions. It is possible (and my brother and several friends I know are an example) for a person to study German in school and not know it or be able to speak or understand it. Just because you have lessons that does NOT prove she 'knew' any German. Several people who knew her stated she didn't know it.

Quote:
He said, when AA described the Malachite room, that there was no such room in the Tsar's palace.
Perhaps he'd never seen it. That doesn't make him a liar. Also, I have heard many people say her descriptions were wrong.

Quote:
He wrote Tatiana Botkin that "neither my wife, nor I, could find any likeness between AA and AN after our visit to Berlin." This was after Shura had expressed her belief that "this is Anastasia's body".
Who knows what they discussed when they were home, and the heat of the emotion had worn off? This doesn't prove he lied.

Quote:
After she had said about the perfume ritual that "this is exactly what AN used to do". After Gilliard himself had referred to the patient as The Grand Duchess Anastasia. After he and his wife had left Berlin "without being able to say that she is NOT the Grand Duchess."
Do you want more?
So they weren't sure for awhile, because of her condition, but finally realized it wasn't her. NONE of this proves he intentionally lied.
  #1568  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
That's because he got her away in time.

Must have been somebody at the hospital. Only the bribe is alleged, his statement of believing she'd be put away was something else. He said it. If you want to know more, write to the author of the HOOK article and ask him.

That forum is heavily laden with AA supporters, some of them are probably the same person more than once (like the one who trolled my guestbook under 16 different names and the same IP) So it's possible they were helping her out. Some people who met her want to believe she was for real, because maybe their own lives are a little less special if she wasn't.

Also, most people in America don't know much about languages, or what Russian sounds like, so they'd be fooled into believing any foreign language was Russian. Another visitor, who knew Russian (I can't find this source now but I'll keep trying) said that AA 'spoke to her dogs in a language I had never heard before.' My guess is it was Kashub Polish.
Dave Howey, who met Anderson/Mrs. Manahan when he was a cadet at a Virginia military academy in 1977, wrote of their meeting that "Her husband talked for her since she spoke very little English. Her only functional language was German, her Russian having been wiped out, we were told, as a result of the trauma from seeing her family gunned down in the cellar of a house in Ekaterinburg, Russia."
Again, all hearsay and nothing to comment on. And Jack did not "get her away on time." She was not being "committed", only transferred to the nearby University of Virginia Medical Center by the doctors after they found no evidence of mental illness.
  #1569  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Again, all hearsay and nothing to comment on.
It is on BOTH sides.

Quote:
And Jack did not "get her away on time." She was not being "committed", only transferred to the nearby University of Virginia Medical Center by the doctors after they found no evidence of mental illness.

THEN WHY DID HE FEEL THE NEED TO ABDUCT HER AND GO ON THE LAM?!

What you claim is very different from the news stories of the time.

Manahan "said he was very concerned for her welfare," (Amherst County Sheriff Michael) Cox said. "He said that's why he took her away. He said he was afraid she would be committed to a mental institution."

Manahan was taken to the Albemarle sheriff's office and later appeared for a bond hearing in the county court. He was released on a $1000 personal recognizance bond and told he will not be allowed to visit his wife without permission of the hospital and her guardian, attorney William C. Preston. Preston said Mrs. Manahan would not be institutionalized if Manahan cooperates "in finding a viable solution."

So you see, her court appointed guardian felt commitment was possible!
  #1570  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
"He said that's why he took her away. He said he was afraid she would be committed to a mental institution."

*see I told you most Americans can't tell one foreign language from another!
I have no idea why you find this important. Jack Manahan's personal belief has no bearing on AA's mental state.
As for understanding languages, you are unfortunately correct. But that does not mean that ALL Americans are unable to tell languages apart.
  #1571  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
It is on BOTH sides.
Again, there is a big difference between hearsay and sworn testimony, written letters and direct experience.

Quote:
THEN WHY DID HE FEEL THE NEED TO ABDUCT HER AND GO ON THE LAM?!
Frankly, my dear..............

Quote:
What you claim is very different from the news stories of the time
And what do I claim?

Quote:
Manahan "said he was very concerned for her welfare," (Amherst County Sheriff Michael) Cox said.
Quote:
"He said that's why he took her away. He said he was afraid she would be committed to a mental institution."
Again, what has his actions to do with AA's mental condition? He seems to be the one that is a little off here.
  #1572  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Again, there is a big difference between hearsay and sworn testimony, written letters and direct experience.
Again, we have this from BOTH sides. Everyone isn't right. The DNA proved who was right, and it wasn't AA's side.

Quote:
Again, what has his actions to do with AA's mental condition? He seems to be the one that is a little off here.
From the Daily Progress article, Dec. 3, 1983:


Manahan was taken to the Albemarle sheriff's office and later appeared for a bond hearing in the county court. He was released on a $1000 personal recognizance bond and told he will not be allowed to visit his wife without permission of the hospital and her guardian, attorney William C. Preston.

Manahan "said he was very concerned for her welfare," Cox said. "He said that's why he took her away. He said he was afraid she would be committed to a mental institution."

Preston said Mrs. Manahan would not be institutionalized if Manahan cooperates "in finding a viable solution."

You see, AA had been taken away from Manahan by the court and appointed with a legal guardian named William C. Preston. This guardian felt institutionalization was very possible, unless Manahan could find 'a viable solution.' Since she died only 2 months later, that ended it.
  #1573  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:09 PM
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As for understanding languages, you are unfortunately correct. But that does not mean that ALL Americans are unable to tell languages apart.
Apparently, the Sheriff didn't know what language it was, or he'd have said.
  #1574  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
This is all based on your assumptions. It is possible (and my brother and several friends I know are an example) for a person to study German in school and not know it or be able to speak or understand it. Just because you have lessons that does NOT prove she 'knew' any German. Several people who knew her stated she didn't know it.
Again, Anastasia's schoolbooks clearly show that she could write German, even with fewer mistakes than her Russian. Anybody who can write a language, also knows how to speak it, however badly.

Quote:
Perhaps he'd never seen it. That doesn't make him a liar. Also, I have heard many people say her descriptions were wrong.
If he had never seen it, he should have said so, not that such a room did not exist. And who are these many people?

Quote:
Who knows what they discussed when they were home, and the heat of the emotion had worn off? This doesn't prove he lied.
Yes, it does! Both him and his wife found several likenesses between AA and AN when they visited her in Berlin, that's also why Olga joined them there.

Quote:
So they weren't sure for awhile, because of her condition, but finally realized it wasn't her. NONE of this proves he intentionally lied.
So, they were not sure for three months or so, and then suddenly changed their mind? Actually, Gilliard was the one who persuaded Olga to change hers. And they never saw AA again for a second opinion. A likely story. Especially when Gilliard started calling himself "The Representative of the House of Hesse." Explain that one to me.
  #1575  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
It could be. FS left home to work in Berlin in 1914 when the war broke out, that gave her feet six years to get that way.
Actually, Felix saw her last in 1918, and Gertrude lived with her in Berlin. Try again.

Quote:
Yet, as Elspeth has shown us, there is no medical basis for any of it.
Is Elspeth a doctor now? The last website I looked at, a Danish foot doctor stated that "some Hallux Valgus are congenital, others grow slowly in adulthood."

Quote:
You have to remember and consider these people had denied her, for her and their own good, and were afraid of their lies getting them into trouble (according to Klier and Mingay, even today the descendants fear prosection for FS/AA's fraud and that's why they are reluctant to discuss it) so they weren't likely to beat a path to her door by denying her, then accepting everything about her which would paint her as their relative. They had to 'cover themselves'. This is why I disregard what the family said in their denials.
Klier and Mingay have their own agenda.
Martin Knopf had visited the Schanzkowskis before this whole story broke and even tried to make them agree to say that FS had born a child so that he could use that as well. But no luck in that department.
When Felix met Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann at the railway station and drove with her to the inn in Wassersburg, he said that he would only say what his mother had told him. He was also assured that if AA turned out to be his sister, she would be able to continue her stay at Schloss Seeon, and he would in no way be responsible for her. That may have been the reason for him saying "It's my sister". Then later on, when he realized what damage a perjury might do to him, he pointed out all the differences between FS and AA and refused to sign a declaration "that might land him in jail" stating that AA was his sister FS.
  #1576  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:24 PM
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Again, Anastasia's schoolbooks clearly show that she could write German, even with fewer mistakes than her Russian.
This does not prove anything. As for 'mistakes' she had a harder time with the cyrillic alphabet. Copying down words means nothing. I could do that, anyone could.

Quote:
Anybody who can write a language, also knows how to speak it, however badly.
This is NOT TRUE! One of our posters here recently told you she could translate in several languages in writing, but couldn't speak some of them. A lot of people can write, or even read, a language they can't understand. Politicians always read things in another language, and sometimes rock stars read greetings in the language of the country they're playing in to be friendly to the crowd, but none of this proves proficiency. Before I was born, my parents had a German maid who my mother always said could read the most perfect English to my brother and sister from Little Golden books, but was barely functional in conversation and usually had to use her hands to get her point across. Nope, writing words down is NOT proof of ability.


Quote:
If he had never seen it, he should have said so, not that such a room did not exist. And who are these many people?
That doesn't make him a liar! Getting something accidently wrong or making a mistake is not the same thing as a lie. Really, if he'd known about the room, he never would have said there wasn't one, because he knew he could be proven wrong! (as for the people, I have seen it written many times but do not have the source available, I'll dig when I have time)



Quote:
Yes, it does! Both him and his wife found several likenesses between AA and AN when they visited her in Berlin, that's also why Olga joined them there.
Maybe they sent for Olga to see what SHE thought, because she knew her better, and they weren't sure.



Quote:
So, they were not sure for three months or so, and then suddenly changed their mind? Actually, Gilliard was the one who persuaded Olga to change hers. And they never saw AA again for a second opinion. A likely story. Especially when Gilliard started calling himself "The Representative of the House of Hesse." Explain that one to me.
None of this proves he is a liar. This is only your personal view.
  #1577  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:24 PM
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Apparently, the Sheriff didn't know what language it was, or he'd have said.
And what does it matter? She may have been speaking German, she may have been speaking Russian, but the truth is: We do not know, and it has no relevance.
  #1578  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Again, we have this from BOTH sides. Everyone isn't right. The DNA proved who was right, and it wasn't AA's side.
So far, nothing has been legally proven.


Quote:
From the Daily Progress article, Dec. 3, 1983:


Manahan was taken to the Albemarle sheriff's office and later appeared for a bond hearing in the county court. He was released on a $1000 personal recognizance bond and told he will not be allowed to visit his wife without permission of the hospital and her guardian, attorney William C. Preston.

Manahan "said he was very concerned for her welfare," Cox said. "He said that's why he took her away. He said he was afraid she would be committed to a mental institution."

Preston said Mrs. Manahan would not be institutionalized if Manahan cooperates "in finding a viable solution."

You see, AA had been taken away from Manahan by the court and appointed with a legal guardian named William C. Preston. This guardian felt institutionalization was very possible, unless Manahan could find 'a viable solution.' Since she died only 2 months later, that ended it.
As I told you already, she was being transferred to another medical institution. She was not able to care for herself, and Manahan was not able to care for her either. There was NO talk of mental illness.
  #1579  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:33 PM
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Actually, Felix saw her last in 1918, and Gertrude lived with her in Berlin. Try again.
Doesn't prove a thing.



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Is Elspeth a doctor now? The last website I looked at, a Danish foot doctor stated that "some Hallux Valgus are congenital, others grow slowly in adulthood."
She did a lot of research and posted it here.



Quote:
Klier and Mingay have their own agenda.
AND YOU DON'T??!!

Quote:
Martin Knopf had visited the Schanzkowskis before this whole story broke and even tried to make them agree to say that FS had born a child so that he could use that as well. But no luck in that department.
As I have said many, many times, you have to consider what a shame on the family an illegitimate pregnancy was in those days. People would go to such great lenghts to hide them they'd send girls away and sometimes mothers or even grandmothers would claim the 'bastard.' It all seems silly now that even wealthy career woman voluntarily have babies out of wedlock, but we're talking about the 20's here, not 2008. Take it in that context.

Quote:
He was also assured that if AA turned out to be his sister, she would be able to continue her stay at Schloss Seeon, and he would in no way be responsible for her.
Oh give me a break, who would believe this? Why would anyone keep a lying fraud in high style at a castle? Even to this day, the family fears being held responsible. As someone once said "I don't believe in never."

Quote:
That may have been the reason for him saying "It's my sister". Then later on, when he realized what damage a perjury might do to him, he pointed out all the differences between FS and AA and refused to sign a declaration "that might land him in jail" stating that AA was his sister FS.
What happened was, (and Dmitri L. thinks so too, he could tell they recognized each other) he did say it when he first saw her, but when they talked alone out of earshot (as Dmitri L. said) he changed his tune. Perhaps she begged him not to expose her and ruin everything for her, or perhaps he realized on his own what trouble it would be for her and possibly the family if she were caught, and it was better to leave her to her 'career' as "Anastasia."
  #1580  
Old 09-02-2008, 04:35 PM
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Then WHY did Manahan fear she was going to be put in a mental institution? We have a direct quote from the arresting sheriff that he said it.
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