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  #1461  
Old 08-20-2008, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
PROVE IT! The letter you posted as 'proof' before says nothing of the kind. This is YOUR SPECULATION.
No, it is not. It comes from Prince Frederick of Saxe Altenburg.

Quote:
Where is this letter and who has it? Even if it is true, you know, dying 87 year old women imagine all sorts of things that aren't true. My aunt thinks a man lives inside her wall.
The letter is part of the papers from the Hamburg trial and is kept in the German State Archives. (See Peter Kurth)

Quote:
He's listed as the source in the footnotes for the 'she is similar' speech in Riddle of Anastasia.
No, he is not. Prince Frederick von Saxe Altenburg is the source.

Quote:
No she walked across the room and pulled down the sheets.
Aha, so she DID see the eyes close up after all.

Quote:
She was put out with Gibbes and Gilliard mistaken for a foreign national due to her name.
And Schneider was not.

Quote:
Where is this alleged unpublished memoir? The real Yurovsky memoir has recently been found and translated, casting doubt on this alleged copy, especially since nobody can manage to produce it for translation by others. In the newly found real one, he is clearly surprised to see the jewels sewn into the clothes after they are dead, and only then did he have issues with them.
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Yu...teEnglish.html
It says right there in my post where it is.
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  #1462  
Old 08-20-2008, 06:44 PM
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AA=ANR (65 million : 1) !

So, the probability of a coincidence in case of AA and Carl Maucher was just 1 in 300.
(See http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f202/dna-and-the-law-17723-5.html#post813869 )
On the other hand, we know, that AA (and ANR) had HV (heavy HV or even C-HV) and FS had no HV. We know also, that medical statistics of heavy HV is 1:6500 (and C-HV - 1:18,000,000).
My question:
why opponents of AA prefer results of DNA-tests (with probability of a coincidence 1:300) instead of medical statistics of HV (1:6500 at least)?
P.S. I live in the big multi-storey house where approximately 4500 person live too. Full inspection of all tenants of our house (on DNA) would give Carl Maucher 15 more "relatives" (4500\300=15). However, in our house any woman has no C-HV or even only heavy HV :)

AND
We know also, that АА and АNR had completely identical auricles (ear). You can read through in Wikipedia, that auricles (ear) give the same accuracy of identification, as well as prints of fingers.

ATTENTION NOW!
The statistics of accuracy of identification on prints of fingers ("False Accept Rate", "False Match Rate") is well-known, it is not less than 1 : 10 000.
http://www.morepc.ru/security/authentication/precise_biomatch.html (in Russian)

Thus, probability of that casual concurrence, that AA and ANRhad identical ears + heavyHV = 1 : (6500X10000) = 1 : 65 000 000!!!
Thus, a probability of that Anna Anderson was Anastasia Romanova is not less 65 million :1 !!!
********************************************************************************************************************

You can see also two new articles (by Vladimir Momot, Ekaterinburg) about Anna Anderson:
http://www.proza.ru/texts/2008/08/15/173.html (in English)
http://www.proza.ru/texts/2008/08/15/195.html
(in English too)



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  #1463  
Old 08-20-2008, 08:40 PM
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Please note that the Ear comparison studies like facial comparison studies are subjective.
For instance:

Moritz Furtmayr's 1970's study of AA face and ears with Anastasia's. He accidentally included a photograph of the Grand Duchess Maria's ear (Which was distinctly different than that of Anastasia's) and yet he concluded it was the same ear as Anna Anderson's-which shows that his test is unreliable. (See the 1970's documentary IN SEARCH OF ANASTASIA on You Tube and you can see the photograph of Maria when they interview Furtmayr. In addition he concluded that the original "mug shot" photograph of AA was actually a mirror image (he believed that the negative had been reversed) because he didnt think that AA's ear in that photo matched other photographs of AA showing the same ear. Yet looking at the photo it appears that it is not reversed for two reasons. The first being that the lower part of her jaw which had been broken (as indicated by Xrays) appears to be on the correct side and secondly looking at the photo one can see the way that AA had her hair parted was the same as she had in the mid 1920's and if the image was reversed the part should be on the other side which it wasn't. While the ear may look different from other photographs of AA's ears it appears it is simply taken at a different angle. Again making me question Furtmayr's credibility.

Peter Vanesis's 1990's study of AA's ears included a panel of judges. Even though Vanesis gave the ears of AA a high score when matching it with the ears of Anastasia, one of the judges refused to agree with Peter and the other members of the panel and stated he did not agree that the ears were the same. Showing again subjective opinions not science fact.

Anastasia's Hessian relatives declared emphatically that Anastasia had ears similar to one of her German relatives Prince Henri of Prussia whose ears were very distinct (In pictures they appear to lack the usual curvature on the upper portion of the ear). In fact they commented that Anastasia had been teased about this very distinctive feature- the caster molds of AA's ears which had been sent to them by Harriet von Rathlef-Keilmann did not resemble Anastasia's ears. A series of photos comparing the ears of Anastasia, her relative Prince Henri of Prussia and AA can be found in Pierre Gilliard's book La Fausse Anastasie.

The fact the nuclear DNA of the recent remains found in Ekaterinburg showed that the remains were brother and sister and the son and daughter of the bones of Nicholas and Alexandra definitively prove that all of the Romanovs are accounted for. (See National Geographic's program entitled "Finding Anastasia" which goes into surprising detail proving the genetic connection.

Not only has DNA showed that all of the Romanovs are accounted for they also have indicated (With two distinct samples) that AA was not a Romanov and instead matched the genetic code of the Schanzkowski family.

Indeed there was a very large number of people who knew Anastasia and rejected AA, (Princess Irene of Hesse The Empress's sister and Anastasia's Aunt; Sydney Gibbes The Romanov Children's English tutor; Pierre Gilliard the Romanov Children's French Tutor; Sophie Buxdoeveden the Empress's Maid of Honor; Captain Nicholas Sablin Captain of the Romanov yacht Standart;Basil Woitinsky and George Taube both officers on the Standart; Darya Hesse friend of Anastasia's sister Olga Nikolaievna and her Mother; Felix Yussuppov murderer of Rasputin and husband to Anastasia's first cousin etc.)

The similarities between AA and Franziska Schanzkowska's family are remarkable:The Leuchtenberg children, who at the time were living under the same roof as AA, were present at the initial meeting between AA and Felix Schanzkowski (Franziska's "Favorite" brother) told Faith Lavington that in height, coloring and especially the shape of the lips AA and Felix were strikingly similar. (Welch pg 136)

I strongly encourage those interested in learning more to read A Romanov Fantasy: Life at the Court of Anna Anderson by Frances Welch or Robert K. Massie's The Romanovs: The Final Chapter
  #1464  
Old 08-20-2008, 09:10 PM
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Identical ears from photos of that genre. Please!!! You can barely discern features. DNA, certainly, scotched any other ideas. Many people resemble people they are not related to. I have a cousin who was adopted and he looked very much like his adopted father. No, Anna was a fraud.
  #1465  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:45 PM
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Believe in Anastasia

It actually pains me to face the facts--well, the DNA results. I travelled to Ekaterinburg in 1997 on the 79th anniversary of the family's massacre. At that time only 9 of the 11 bodies had been found and I felt sure Anastasia had escaped. I was allowed to view the remains in the city morgue and having already seen photos and video of the remains I was sure her skull wasn't there. And there were so many unexplained coincidences and physical characteristics identified by people who had known her that I was absolutely disbelieving when the DNA results were announced. It took me some time--probably years to come to accept the deaths of the whole family. And sometimes I still believe.
  #1466  
Old 08-20-2008, 10:50 PM
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Believe in Anastasia

Oh I forgot to add that Charlotte Zeepvat's book The Camera of the Tsars (I think) has some family photos in it which will shock you with the resemblance to the younger Anna Anderson.
  #1467  
Old 08-20-2008, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
It actually pains me to face the facts--well, the DNA results. I travelled to Ekaterinburg in 1997 on the 79th anniversary of the family's massacre. At that time only 9 of the 11 bodies had been found and I felt sure Anastasia had escaped. I was allowed to view the remains in the city morgue and having already seen photos and video of the remains I was sure her skull wasn't there. And there were so many unexplained coincidences and physical characteristics identified by people who had known her that I was absolutely disbelieving when the DNA results were announced. It took me some time--probably years to come to accept the deaths of the whole family. And sometimes I still believe.
There was new remains discovered in July 2007- that was of Alexei and his sister (either Maria or Anastasia). None of the romanov never survived. AA was always FS along. AA was a mentally ill woman, she was walking on the roof necked, hitting sticks with people, trying to commit suicide and pretending to be a grand duchess who looks nothing like her.

Quote:
Oh I forgot to add that Charlotte Zeepvat's book The Camera of the Tsars (I think) has some family photos in it which will shock you with the resemblance to the younger Anna Anderson.
She doesn't have no resemblence to AA at all. They look totally different. They are two completely different people. These are the real Anastasia's family members and tutors who stated the differences between AA and Anastasia. Pierre Gillard also called AA an 'first-rate actress'. This is what they had to say about AA...

I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess.I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

-Baroness Sophie Buxhoevedon

She in no way resembles the true Grand Duchess Anastasia that I had known .... I am quite satisfied that she is an impostor-If that's Grand Duchess Anastasia," Gibbes exclaimed, "I'm a Chinaman

Sydney Gibbes.

I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces. Even though I had not seen them for nine years, the fundamental facial characteristics could not have altered to that degree, in particular the position of the eyes, the ear, etc. ..

- Princess Irene

Five reasons, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovan denied Anna Anderson.
1. When Mrs. Tschiakovsky arrived in Seeon she did not speak or understand Russian; she did not speak or understand English, except for what she learned from lessons taken in Lugano and in Obersdorf before coming to Seeon; she did not speak or understand French. She spoke only German with a north German accent. Grand Duchess Anastasia, on the contrary, spoke always Russian to her father, English to her mother, understood and spoke French and did not speak any German.

2. When I took Mrs. Tschiakovsky to our Russian Orthodox church she behaved and acted as a Roman Catholic and did not know the Russian Orthodox rite, whereas Grand Duchess Anastasia and the whole imperial family were an extremely religious church going family, brought up entirely in the Russian Orthodox rite.

3. I was present during the surprise meeting of Mrs. Tschiakovsky with Felix Schankovsky [sic] when the latter recognised her as his sister Francizka Schankovsky [sic], agreeing to sign a statement to that effect. Later, following a short conference with his sister beyond our earshot, he refused to sign such a statement, for reasons that could be easily understood: he was a poor Communist miner, his mother was very ill with cancer without means, and his sister lived in a castle being treated as a potential Grand Duchess. Why should he spoil her 'career'?

4. All persons who knew the Grand Duchess well personally and saw Mrs. Tschaikovsky did not recognise her as being the Grand Duchess Anastasia, did not know her at all, or with a few exceptions, only slightly. Some of those had aims of gain from that affair, but the majority were White Russians, loyal to the imperial family and approached the riddle of Tschiakovsky-Anderson under a strong influence of wishful thinking.

5. Dr. Kostrizky, the dentist of the imperial family, testified in writing that the jaws of Mrs. Tschiakovsky, of which we sent him a plaster impression made by our family dentist in 1927, have nothing in common with the jaws of Grand Duchess Anastasia.
My personal impression was that Mrs. Tschiakovsky-Anderson came from a family of a lower social stratum, she did not have the inborn grace of the members of the imperial family, and certainly did not act as a lady. My impressions are, of course, not a proof, but the above mentioned facts are.
In conclusion, I must mention that my father agreed to receive Mrs. Tschiakovsky in Seeon, because, as he told us: 'If she is the Grand Duchess, it would be a crime not to help her and if she is not the Grand Duchess, I do not commit a crime by giving shelter to a poor, sick, persecuted woman, while making investigations regarding her identity.

(signed) Dmitri Leuchtenberg.

When Olga entered the room, the woman lying on a bed asked a nurse: “Ist das die Tante?”[Is this the Aunt?] “That”, confessed Olga, “at once took me aback.(According to the other witnesses in the room, the patient said nothing when Olga entered.) A moment later I remembered that the young woman having spent five years in Germany, would naturally have learnt the language, but then I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German – when she spoke at all - which was not often. I readily admit that a ghastly horror experienced in one’s youth can work havoc with one’s memory but I have never heard of any ghastly experience endowing anyone with a knowledge they had not had before it happened. My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. (In a letter to Anatol Mordvinov, she did, however, admit that "She seems to understand Russian") French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family”.

The nose, the mouth, the eyes were all different. She would have been twenty four in 1925. I thought Mrs Anderson looked much older than that.The patient had a long nose, strongly turned up at the end, a very large mouth, thick and fleshy lips; the grand duchess, on the other hand, had a short, sharp nose, a much smaller mouth and fine lips .... Apart from the colour of the eyes, we could find nothing to make us believe that this was the grand duchess.

She spoke only German with a north German accent. Grand Duchess Anastasia, on the contrary, spoke always Russian to her father, English to her mother, understood and spoke French and did not speak any German.

-Olga Alexandrovna

I claim categorically that she is not Anastasia Nicolaievna, but just an adventuress, a sick hysteric and a frightful playactress. I simply cannot understand how anyone can be in doubt of this. If you had seen her, I am convinced that you would recoil in horror at the thought that this frightful creature could be a daughter of our Tsar ... These false pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere.

Felix Yussopov-
  #1468  
Old 08-21-2008, 12:28 AM
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Here are the two pages showing the ears from Pierre Gilliard's book:

The first shows from left to right: Anastasia's ear, AA's ear (At that time she was known as Anastasia Tschaikovsky), and Anastasia's ear
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...rskoe/ear2.jpg

This next series shows from left to right: Anastasia's ear, AA's ear and Prince Henri of Prussia's ear. Note how Anastasia and Henri's ears are almost elfish while Anna's ear has a flat ledge across the entire length of the upper ear.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...rskoe/ear1.jpg

Here is a copy of the original "mug shot" photographs of Anna- this is the photograph that the above ear of AA was taken. Furtmayr insisted that the photo was reversed and so the right ear of Anastasia and the left ear of AA were compared. It is obvious that these cannot be the same ear. Yet note the hair style of AA in the photograph.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/mug.jpg

And see it compared with photographs of AA taken just a few years later. AA commented, several years after this initial photo, when looking at a photograph of Anastasia taken in Siberia that she still styled her hair the same as she had before her "escape". This confirms that her hairstyle had not altered at least from the time when the original mug shot was taken. And thus the photo is not reversed and that is indeed her right ear.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...rskoe/hair.jpg

Here is the photograph of Maria which was mistook to be Anastasia in the ear comparison. Note the lack of bangs, which Anastasia wore unlike her sister Maria. See the photo below this one comparing this photo to one of Maria (Who stands to the far right)- note the similarity of profile, hair style and hairline- note Anastasia with her typical bangs on the far left.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...skoe/maria.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/atm.jpg
  #1469  
Old 08-21-2008, 01:56 AM
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And here is another photo of "Maria". Complete with bangs. Or maybe it's the same photo.....



As for the other ear photos: How can we know who's ears they were when we cannot see the faces?
  #1470  
Old 08-21-2008, 10:41 AM
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Maria isn't wearing any fringes in the photo, she has her hair halfway back in a bow.
  #1471  
Old 08-21-2008, 11:42 AM
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No, he is not. Prince Frederick von Saxe Altenburg is the source.
Yes, this is right, I made a mistake, however, it makes little difference since it's still just a quote from a big supporter and it cannot be proven Irene said it. The letter you post claiming Irene was 'upset' is simply stating she and her husband had made up her mind AA was not AN and did not want to be bothered with the matter anymore. Anything else you read into it is pure speculation on your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
I cannot find any connection with Peter Vanesis and NOVA. As far as I know, he was contacted by film maker Julian Knott to undertake an analysis of AA's ears and compare them to AA. He and and a team of four other scientists, each working in isolation, analyzed the pictures of AA and AN. 4 of them came to the conclusion that they were 100% certain that the photos depicted the same person. The 5th colleague failed to reach 100% of certainty.
Yes, but I do believe the Vanesis team did the NOVA ear exams. Also NO ONE said anything about it proving they were the same person. Additionally, you still do not explain why the comment in "Tsar" claims that FACIAL tests proved AA was AN when the 1990's face tests, by Oxlee, said she was FS, and why you claim tests were redone in the US and showed 'with certainty AA was AN' This isn't true, no one said AA was AN, the face tests went against her, and no tests were redone in the US. You have not answered those descrepencies. If you cannot, just admit it was an error. Otherwise, please produce proof.
  #1472  
Old 08-21-2008, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tsarskoe View Post
And see it compared with photographs of AA taken just a few years later. AA commented, several years after this initial photo, when looking at a photograph of Anastasia taken in Siberia that she still styled her hair the same as she had before her "escape". This confirms that her hairstyle had not altered at least from the time when the original mug shot was taken. And thus the photo is not reversed and that is indeed her right ear.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...rskoe/hair.jpg
That's true AA's hairstyle had not changed (also same one she wore as FS) but she made a blunder claiming to have the same hairdo as before her "escape" since the real AN had short hair due to her head being shaved the year before. In the last two pictures of AN you can see she had short hair with bangs, nothing like AA's long, side parted, fringeless bun look. Even later when AA cut her hair she still wore it side parted and with no bangs, making her look exactly the same as she did with it long and up and nothing like the real AN. (but just like FS!)

Tobolsk

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/sideview.jpg

Leaving for Ekaterinburg, spring 1918. Sophie B. wrote in her book "Left Behind" 'all of the Grand Duchesses had bobbed hair."

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra...astasiaRus.jpg

Quote:
Here is the photograph of Maria which was mistook to be Anastasia in the ear comparison. Note the lack of bangs, which Anastasia wore unlike her sister Maria. See the photo below this one comparing this photo to one of Maria (Who stands to the far right)- note the similarity of profile, hair style and hairline- note Anastasia with her typical bangs on the far left.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...skoe/maria.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/atm.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Maria isn't wearing any fringes in the photo, she has her hair halfway back in a bow.
Exactly, Maria's hair is pulled back in a bow. She may have a tiny bit of stray 'baby hairs' sticking out but it's not cut bangs/fringe like AN had.
  #1473  
Old 08-21-2008, 12:09 PM
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Yes, Maria had baby hairs near her ears and on the edges of her hairline. That photo of Anastasia in spring of 1918, it's acutally her real hair that grown back slightly past shoulder length. It was long enough to put back up. Anastasia always wore bangs, even in Yakeringburg. But, AA's hair was never in bangs her headline looks completely different from Anastasia. The photo of FS, AA's hair looks just like hers. The same exact style.
  #1474  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Maria isn't wearing any fringes in the photo, she has her hair halfway back in a bow.
Yes, by a closer look, I see that you are right.
In the video with Dr. Furtmayr, this photo is shown before a photo of AA's ear. I realize now that these two photos were taken from James Lovell's book, where he labels the photo of Maria as from The Furtmayr Collection. The photo is actually from the Beinecke Library at Yale. The photo that Furtmayr used, is the one you see in this video
when you stop the video at 3:10.
Mystery solved.
As for the inverted photo of AA, Peter Kurth states in his book that Furtmayr used a photo taken of AA at Dalldorf. He says nothing about a police mugshot. Maybe Tsarskoe could provide further proof here.
  #1475  
Old 08-21-2008, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Yes, this is right, I made a mistake, however, it makes little difference since it's still just a quote from a big supporter and it cannot be proven Irene said it. The letter you post claiming Irene was 'upset' is simply stating she and her husband had made up her mind AA was not AN and did not want to be bothered with the matter anymore. Anything else you read into it is pure speculation on your part.
Sorry to tell you this, but I am not at all speculating on this, just reporting what Prince Friederich said.


Quote:
Yes, but I do believe the Vanesis team did the NOVA ear exams.
Vanesis did this for an English program. Nova was produced in Boston.

Quote:
Also NO ONE said anything about it proving they were the same person.
As I stated earlier, 5 scientists compared photos. 4 of them came to the conclusion that the identification of AA as AN was a 100% certain, the 5th did not come to that result.

Quote:
Additionally, you still do not explain why the comment in "Tsar" claims that FACIAL tests proved AA was AN when the 1990's face tests, by Oxlee, said she was FS, and why you claim tests were redone in the US and showed 'with certainty AA was AN' This isn't true, no one said AA was AN, the face tests went against her, and no tests were redone in the US. You have not answered those descrepencies. If you cannot, just admit it was an error. Otherwise, please produce proof.
I think you should ask Peter Kurth about this.
  #1476  
Old 08-21-2008, 03:18 PM
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ChatNoir, is this the photo you're talking about?
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/f...Anastziepe.jpg
The photo you posted of Maria in the classroom is from the online Yale Romanov albums. NOVA is a program from PBS.
  #1477  
Old 08-21-2008, 03:35 PM
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Yes, that's the one. Thank you.
  #1478  
Old 08-21-2008, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Sorry to tell you this, but I am not at all speculating on this, just reporting what Prince Friederich said.
We cannot prove she said what he claimed, especially since it contradicts her signed statement. What I was talking about you speculating on was that letter you posted once where her husband asked Von Kliest to stop bothering them since they'd already made up their minds. There was nothing in there to imply Irene was upset or unsure, yet you allege that.


Quote:
Vanesis did this for an English program. Nova was produced in Boston.
Then maybe "English program" is yet another inaccuracy in the statement, because Vanesis did do the ear comparisons on NOVA (which seemed to use both Brit and US content)


Quote:
As I stated earlier, 5 scientists compared photos. 4 of them came to the conclusion that the identification of AA as AN was a 100% certain, the 5th did not come to that result.
No, it is true 4 of 5 said the ears matched, (if it was even hers) but no one said it meant she was AN, and certainly not 'with certainty.'



Quote:
I think you should ask Peter Kurth about this.
Okay! Consider him asked. I await his response.
  #1479  
Old 08-21-2008, 05:14 PM
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from the translations again, I just noticed two more glaring things that have not been brought to light before:

According to statements by Dr Graede who had cared for her during this time, stated that there were some lesions on the body of the patient, but they all had (been caused by) tuberculosis of the bone and not in any case could be caused by rifle butts or of a bayonet.

SO! We have a doctor, by name (Graede) who says some of the scars were lesions and not wounds, yet you never see him or his comments mentioned by AA supporters, apparently because of their negative nature to her story.

Here's another doozy/clunker:

she declared to him that she had a son and "that one could always recognize this child thanks to the linens he wears with Imperial crowns and a medallion." which she had left to him.


AH! So now the 'little bastard that no one would recognize' had royal medalions? When did this part leave the story? Probably when she realized something like that would not go unnoticed, and she (and/or some of her supporters) decided it would be better the more anonymous and lost he would seem!

It's almost hilarious how many times her story changed versions. Starting with the more wild versions she and Clara came up with at the asylum, then the parts changed or added with Von Kliest, to the final copy perfected by professional writer Rathlef, who apparently sorted out all the junk and more sensationa/unbelievable stuff to create a more (supposedly) realistic and sympathetic version- the one she used henceforth, and the one repeated by her supporters to this day. However, finding the old original parts and seeing how silly they were only casts far more doubt on the authenticity of the whole story than its own unrealistic absurdity.

Very interesting:

Nevertheless, all the attempts by Baron Kleist to identify the unknown one remained unsuccessful. Among numerous persons who came to see her, none of them recognized her as the Tsar's daughter. Mrs. Zenaïde Tolstoii who at first had taken her for the Grand Duchess Tatiana, recounted her error in a letter she addressed to Baron Kleist on August 7, 1922.]

SO! This is what I thought. Many people came to see her, not just the few we know by name, and NONE of them thought she was AN! Then Zina Tolstoii, who had identified her as "Tatiana" recanted her 'error' and accepted her as "Anastasia"! Clearly, the woman did not know either girl very well or this wouldn't have occured, since the two sisters didn't look alike.
  #1480  
Old 08-21-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
We cannot prove she said what he claimed, especially since it contradicts her signed statement. What I was talking about you speculating on was that letter you posted once where her husband asked Von Kliest to stop bothering them since they'd already made up their minds. There was nothing in there to imply Irene was upset or unsure, yet you allege that.
I allege nothing. From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson": Suddenly the Princess burst into tears. Pacing the floor, wringing her hands, she exclaimed in real anguish, "She is similar, she is similar, but what does that mean if it is not she?" (Interview with Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg; in FOT, 235.)
The whole affair had upset Irene "so terribly," Oscar reported, that her husband, Prince Henry, had forbidden Anastasia as a topic of conversation in the house. (Lillian Zahle to Maria Debagory, January 1, 1927, BA.)

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Then maybe "English program" is yet another inaccuracy in the statement, because Vanesis did do the ear comparisons on NOVA (which seemed to use both Brit and US content)
We may be talking about two different programs here.

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No, it is true 4 of 5 said the ears matched, (if it was even hers) but no one said it meant she was AN, and certainly not 'with certainty.'
You better be prepared to prove this.

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Okay! Consider him asked. I await his response.
When did you call him?
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anastasia, anna anderson, dr berenberg-gossler, ekaterinburg, franziska schanzkowska, grand duchess anastasia, pierre gilliard, prince michael romanov


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