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  #1441  
Old 08-19-2008, 12:02 PM
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From an earlier reply of mine, you will also clearly see that she was not the only one to believe that she was Anastasia. Does that mean that we had a whole bunch of insane people out there?
No comment

We may never know the reasons some had for supporting her, whether or not they were insane, delusional, wishful thinking, and if they even really believed her and were just opportunists for the alleged fortune. But now that we have the DNA and the possibility has been ruled out, very few people still consider it, and they have to hang onto conspiracy theories.
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  #1442  
Old 08-19-2008, 12:17 PM
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And while I'm at it, for the record, I'm going to go ahead and post, yet again, my list of quotes from those who did NOT believe AA was AN (and Chat has some of them on on his pro AA list)

Princess Irene of Prussia, sister of Alexandra:

"I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces. Even though I had not seen them for nine years, the fundamental facial characteristics could not have altered to that degree, in particular the position of the eyes, the ear, etc. .. At first sight one could perhaps detect a resemblance to Grand Duchess Tatiana.
At first I remained with the unknown one in the company of Miss of Oertzen, then alone, but I was not able to notice in her any signs which led me to believe that she recognized me. I had lived in 1912 and 1913 entire weeks with my nieces and since that time I have changed little. At the table, we sat straight across from each one other; then, she got up and left, without saying a word, and went to her room. At this time I already had the conviction that she was not my niece, but, at the desire of the Dr Grunberg, I went up to her room, and approached her bed. I addressed her in vain with words in the language that we habitually used, recalled situations from the past, spoke the nicknames or the names of persons we knew: she did not react to anything. She still did not reply when I prayed for her to say a word or to make a sign that she had recognized me; even when -in order to not neglect anything - I said to her: "Do you not know your Aunt Irene?"

To the Grunbergs big disappointment, who were so well intentioned, I left with the firm conviction that this unknown one is not my niece; I no longer kept the least doubt in this respect. We had lived, formerly, in such intimacy, that it would have sufficed for a small sign or an unconscious movement to awaken in me a familial feeling to convince me."

Signed: Irene, Princess Henri Of Prussia.


(note: this is her signed statement, and the alleged 'she is similar' statement only came from an interview with supporter George Leuchtenberg, not directly from her, so we may question it's accuracy. Also, all claims she was upset about her denial are pure unproven speculation by AA supporters.)



Baroness Sophie Buxhoevedon

She was in bed close to the wall, she was turned facing against the window, in full sunlight. When she heard us enter the room, she hid herself under the cover to hide herself from our stares, and we were not able to get her to show us her face....The unknown one spoke German with Miss Peuthert. Although she was permitted to get up, she prefered to stay in bed as long as possible. This is how I found her. After asking my companions to move away from the bed a little, I tried to attract the young woman's attention as I caressed her hair and speaking to her in English while using the types of phrases I would have used while speaking with the Grand Duchesses, but I did not refer to her by any name other than 'Darling'. She did not reply and I saw that she did not understand a word of what I had said, for when she raised the cover after a certain period of time, and I saw her face, there was nothing in her eyes which showed she had recognized me. The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna, resemblance that disappeared, nevertheless, as soon as her face was not covered. I had to remove the cover by force, and I saw that neither the nose, the mouth, nor the chin were formed like that of the Grand Duchess. The hair was lighter in color, some of her teeth were missing-and the remaining ones were not like those of the Grand Duchess...Her hands were also completely different, the fingers were longer and the nails narrower. I wanted to measure her height, but she refused, and I found it impossible to get an exact measurement without force. We judged roughly that in any case, she was smaller than me, while the Grand Duchess Tatiana was more than ten centimeters taller than me. I have been able to verify this, thanks to the patient's official measurement at the time of her arrival at the hospital and that corresponded exactly with the one which was taken in my presence.

I tried to awaken the memory of the young woman by all the possible means; I showed to her an 'icon', with the date of the Romanov jubilee, that the emperor had given to some persons of the suite, after that a ring that had belonged to the empress; the latter had been given given to her in the presence of the Grand Duchess Tatiana. But none of these things seemed not to evoke in her the slightest recognition. She remained completely indifferent, she whispered some incomprehensible words into Ms. Peuthert's ear. Although I noted a certain similarity in the upper part of the face with the unknown -currently Mrs. Tschaikovski- with the Grand Duchess Tatiana, I am sure that she is not her. I later learned that the she supposes that she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, but she does not physically resemble her in the least. She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

(note: AA supporters denounce her as a 'traitor' but there is no proof of that, either. Please see Sophie's own books for her true story)
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  #1443  
Old 08-19-2008, 12:17 PM
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Felix Yussoupov

Felix met her in 1927 and pronounced her a 'frightful playactress' and a 'wretched creature who could not possibly be the daughter of the Tsar." "I claim categorically that she is not Anastasia Nicolaievna, but just an adventuress, a hysteric and a frightful playactress. I simply cannot understand how anyone can be in doubt of this. These pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere." He had spoken to her in all four languages, Russian, English, French and German, and he reported she only answered him in German.

Prince Christoper of Greece

"The poor girl was a pathetic figure in her loneliness and ill health, and it was comprehensible enough that many of those around her let their sympathy over-rule their logic. ... She was unable to recognise people whom the Grand Duchess Anastasia had known intimately, and her descriptions of rooms in the different palaces and of other scenes familiar to any of the Imperial Family were often inaccurate."

(note: AA supporters claim his book was ghostwritten and he was really a supporter yet there is no proof at all of any such thing)

Alexei Volkov

"the conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tchiakovsky seemed to me very suspect. They intervened all the time, completed her inadequate answers, and excused all her errors under the pretext she was 'ill.'"


Sidney Gibbes

The English tutor of the Imperial children, Gibbes had seen them on a daily basis up until their separation at Ekaterinburg. Gibbes denounced Anderson outright. "She in no way resembles the true Grand Duchess Anastasia that I had known..I am quite satisfied that she is an imposter."

and also 'If that's Anastasia, I'm a Chinaman."

Earl Mountbatten

"I can assure you that there is not the remotest doubt that this woman is not my cousin. She was seen by all our closest mutual relations, all of whom declared there was no resemblance." He once told the BBC, strongly advising them against interviewing her and helping her supporters, who, he claimed, "simply wanted to get rich on the royalties of further books, magazine articles, plays, etc."

From Olga A's bio

p. 174

When Olga entered the room, the woman lying on a bed asked a nurse: “Ist das die Tante?”[Is this the Aunt?] “That”, confessed Olga, “at once took me aback. A moment later I remembered that the young woman having spent five years in Germany, would naturally have learnt the language, but then I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German – when she spoke at all- which was not often. I readily admit that a ghastly horror experienced in one’s youth can work havoc with one’s memory but I have never heard of any ghastly experience endowing anyone with a knowledge they had not had before it happened. My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family."
“My beloved Anastasia was fifteen when I saw her for the last time in the summer of 1916. She would have been twenty four in 1925. I thought Mrs Anderson looked much older than that. Of course, one had to make allowances for a very long illness and the general poor condition of her health. All the same, my niece’s features could not possibly have altered out of all recognition. The nose, the mouth, the eyes were all different.”
P. 175

The Grand Duchess [Olga Alexandrovna] remarked that the interviews were made all the more difficult by Mrs Anderson’s attitude. She would not answer some of the questions, and looked angry when those questions were repeated. Some Romanov photographs were shown to her, and there was not a flicker of recognition in her eyes. The Grand Duchess had brought a small icon of St Nicholas, the patron saint of the imperial family. Mrs Anderson lookes at it so indifferently that it was obvious the icon said nothing to her.

P. 176

Olga Alexandrovna: “…That child was as dear to me as if she were my own daughter. As soon as I sat down by that bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home, I knew I was looking at a stranger… I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished. "
P. 176

“Then again I heard that a party in Berlin, when she was offered some vodka, Mrs Anderson said : ‘How nice! It does remind me of the days at Tsarskoe Selo!” Vodka certainly would not have brought any such reminder to my niece… My nieces never touched either wine or spirits – and indeed how could they at their age?…”
Here is where she explains how Anderson's 'memory' of geting the scar on her hand as "Anastasia" was wrong:

“…The mistakes she made could not be all attributed to lapses of memory. For instance, she had a scar on one of her fingers and she kept telling everybody that it had been crushed because of a footman shutting the door of a landau too quickly. And at once I remembered the incident. It was Marie, her elder sister, who got her hand hurt rather badly, and it did not happen in a carriage but on board the imperial train. Obviously someone, having heard something of the incident, had passed a garbled version of it to Mrs Anderson.

(Though Anderson supporters discount this story, and claim Olga's children disagreed with her biographer, in fact Olga's own son Tikhon backed up this very story completely in his book, The Tsar's Nephew.)

Olga A. (Quest for Anastasia page 102)

They pretend that she recognized me, but I want to tell you how it all happened: they had warned her of my visit. She herself acknowledged that they had said: 'On Tuesday you will be very happy. Someone is coming from Denmark.' Then, obviously, she could imagine the rest and wait for 'her aunt.' She was unable to reply to any of the small intimate questions which I put to her.

Olga A. again

"But the whole story is palpably false. I was convinced then, as I am now, that it is so from beginning to end. Just think of the supposed rescuers - vanishing into thin air, as it were! Had Nicky's daughter been really saved, her rescuers would have known just what it meant to them. Every royal house in Europe would have rewarded them. Why, I am sure that my mother would not have hesitated to empty her jewel-box in gratitude. There is not one tittle of genuine evidence in the story."



and of course, there's no need to even mention Gilliard or Ernst of Hesse because AA supporters call them 'liars.'
  #1444  
Old 08-19-2008, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence View Post
Yes, it's possible if the person had a so many issues in their childhood. The issues affected them so much. Some people from the world war were affected mentally. But, Anastasia was not mentally ill from anything. At the time of captivity and the world war, she was still the same type of fun person that kept the family in high spirits. She always looked on the bright side, dispite everything. I just don't think Anastasia could end up killing herself, even if her life was so unbearable.
What kind of degree do you have which makes you an expert on GD Anastasia's mental state before or after they were taken prisioners?

If GD Anastasia had survived the early morning hours of 17 July 1918, there would have been all kinds of dramatic impact upon her mentally and physically. One of the problems by many of the people who survive is "survival guilt" which can lead to suicide. Run through google "survial syndrome" and you'll find many examples.

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  #1445  
Old 08-19-2008, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
What kind of degree do you have which makes you an expert on GD Anastasia's mental state before or after they were taken prisioners?

If GD Anastasia had survived the early morning hours of 17 July 1918, there would have been all kinds of dramatic impact upon her mentally and physically. One of the problems by many of the people who survive is "survival guilt" which can lead to suicide. Run through google "survial syndrome" and you'll find many examples.

AGRBear
Well, AnnawasFranziska, posted so much information of the people who actually knew the real Anastasia. According to their records Anastasia didn't have mental illness. Also, in family letters there wasn't anything mention about Anastasia being mentally ill. So, you're saying if Anastasia survived on July 17, from the murder then you would think she would become mentally ill? If she survived, I know she would have been affected by the fact that her family was shot down. But, I don't think she'll try to commit sucide or do any physical harm to herself.
  #1446  
Old 08-19-2008, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
No comment

We may never know the reasons some had for supporting her, whether or not they were insane, delusional, wishful thinking, and if they even really believed her and were just opportunists for the alleged fortune. But now that we have the DNA and the possibility has been ruled out, very few people still consider it, and they have to hang onto conspiracy theories.
You call it supporting. I think the people involved called it recognition.
  #1447  
Old 08-19-2008, 02:33 PM
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[quote=Anna was Franziska;813307]And while I'm at it, for the record, I'm going to go ahead and post, yet again, my list of quotes from those who did NOT believe AA was AN (and Chat has some of them on on his pro AA list)

Princess Irene of Prussia, sister of Alexandra:

"I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces

And even so, according to signed testimony from Miss van Oertzen, she begged AA to come home with her to Hemmelmark so the situation could be straightened out.

Quote:
At first I remained with the unknown one in the company of Miss of Oertzen, then alone, but I was not able to notice in her any signs which led me to believe that she recognized me.
And according to AA, she got up and left the table when she recognized her aunt Irene and realized that she had come to see her under an assumed name.

Quote:
(note: this is her signed statement, and the alleged 'she is similar' statement only came from an interview with supporter George Leuchtenberg, not directly from her, so we may question it's accuracy. Also, all claims she was upset about her denial are pure unproven speculation by AA supporters.)
I think this came from her son in law, Prince Sigismund. And George Leuchtenberg was not a "supporter", he was the first one to willingly give her over to the police when the Schanzkowska scandal broke. Only after meeting Doris Wingender did he realize that something "was fundamentally wrong with that case."


Quote:
Baroness Sophie Buxhoevedon

The eyes and forehead showed some resemblance to the Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicolaievna,
Had she forgotten that Tatiana had dark grey eyes?

Quote:
She has none of the special characteristics that would allow any one who knew the Grand Duchess Anastasia well to identify her.

Again, she seem to ignore both the color of the hair and the eyes. And what about the feet? Apparently, she did not take a good look.


Quote:
(note: AA supporters denounce her as a 'traitor' but there is no proof of that, either. Please see Sophie's own books for her true story)
Yes, read her true story where she neglects to write about a certain interview with a certain Bolshevik. And don't forget, she was the only one who refused to testify for Sokolov, both in Russia and later in Europe.
  #1448  
Old 08-19-2008, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Her whole life, her behavior, her history of being sent to asylums (again this happening repeatedly just doesn't happen to sane people!) and most of all PRETENDING TO BE A DEAD PRINCESS and possibly even coming to believe her charade.
Weren't hosptials also called asylums?
  #1449  
Old 08-19-2008, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Felix Yussoupov

Felix met her in 1927 and pronounced her a 'frightful playactress' and a 'wretched creature who could not possibly be the daughter of the Tsar." "I claim categorically that she is not Anastasia Nicolaievna, but just an adventuress, a hysteric and a frightful playactress. I simply cannot understand how anyone can be in doubt of this. These pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere." He had spoken to her in all four languages, Russian, English, French and German, and he reported she only answered him in German.


Are we talking about the same Felix who, when seeing a photo of AA's hands, said to Gleb Botkin: Where did you get that photo of her Majesty's hands?
The same Felix who later was willing to acknowledge AA against a cut of the alleged Tsar's fortune?

Quote:
Prince Christoper of Greece

"The poor girl was a pathetic figure in her loneliness and ill health, and it was comprehensible enough that many of those around her let their sympathy over-rule their logic. ... She was unable to recognise people whom the Grand Duchess Anastasia had known intimately, and her descriptions of rooms in the different palaces and of other scenes familiar to any of the Imperial Family were often inaccurate."

(note: AA supporters claim his book was ghostwritten and he was really a supporter yet there is no proof at all of any such thing)
Why even mention prince Christopher? He never met AA. But, according to Gleb Botkin, he said about Olga that "She knows better than anybody that she is Anastasia."

Quote:
Alexei Volkov

"the conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tchiakovsky seemed to me very suspect. They intervened all the time, completed her inadequate answers, and excused all her errors under the pretext she was 'ill.'"
Which does not gainsay his statement that "I believe she is the Grand Duchess."
By the way, I have seen you use the above statement several times, but you have never given a source for it. May we please have it?


Quote:
Sidney Gibbes

The English tutor of the Imperial children, Gibbes had seen them on a daily basis up until their separation at Ekaterinburg. Gibbes denounced Anderson outright. "She in no way resembles the true Grand Duchess Anastasia that I had known..I am quite satisfied that she is an imposter."

and also 'If that's Anastasia, I'm a Chinaman."
This is quite correct.

Quote:
Earl Mountbatten

"I can assure you that there is not the remotest doubt that this woman is not my cousin. She was seen by all our closest mutual relations, all of whom declared there was no resemblance." He once told the BBC, strongly advising them against interviewing her and helping her supporters, who, he claimed, "simply wanted to get rich on the royalties of further books, magazine articles, plays, etc."

From Olga A's bio
Another one who never met AA.


Quote:
When Olga entered the room, the woman lying on a bed asked a nurse: “Ist das die Tante?”[Is this the Aunt?] “That”, confessed Olga, “at once took me aback.
InHarriet Rathlef-Keilmann's version, AA did not say a word when Olga entered the room. Her eyes lit up, her face turned red, and she looked "radiantly happy"
This version is backed up by Herluf Zahle and AA's surgeon, Professor Serge Rudnev. The manuscript was later sent to Olga in Copenhagen for verification, and she returned it, saying that the description of the events were "quite correct".

Quote:
My nieces knew no German at all.


And as we now know from their workbooks from school, they all studied German seriously.

Quote:
Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian


Seeletter from Olga to Anatole Mordvinov where she states that "curiously enough, she seems to understand Russian, but prefers to answer in German."

Quote:
All the same, my niece’s features could not possibly have altered out of all recognition. The nose, the mouth, the eyes were all different.”
P. 175
Even Gilliard could not get away from the fact that the eyes looked like the ones of the Grand Duchess.

Quote:
Some Romanov photographs were shown to her, and there was not a flicker of recognition in her eyes.
Read Bella Cohen's article in the New York Times where she quotes Shura as talking about how AA recognized her in a photo even though her face was hidden behind a bell.

Quote:
The Grand Duchess had brought a small icon of St Nicholas, the patron saint of the imperial family. Mrs Anderson lookes at it so indifferently that it was obvious the icon said nothing to her.
And, of course, a deadly ill person who was given morphine several times a day should have jumped for joy by seeing an icon that was a copy of the one hanging over her bed.

Quote:
Olga Alexandrovna: “…That child was as dear to me as if she were my own daughter. As soon as I sat down by that bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home, I knew I was looking at a stranger… I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished. "
And as we know, she told Herluf Zahle and Bella Cohen that "My head cannot grasp it, but my heart tells me the little one is Anastasia."
And later, she would write to AA: "I remember when we were together, and you stuffed me with coffee, tea and chocolate."

Quote:
“Then again I heard that a party in Berlin, when she was offered some vodka, Mrs Anderson said : ‘How nice! It does remind me of the days at Tsarskoe Selo!” Vodka certainly would not have brought any such reminder to my niece… My nieces never touched either wine or spirits – and indeed how could they at their age?…”
So she heard this "at a party"? And you are the one to talk about hearsay.....

Quote:
Here is where she explains how Anderson's 'memory' of geting the scar on her hand as "Anastasia" was wrong:

“…The mistakes she made could not be all attributed to lapses of memory. For instance, she had a scar on one of her fingers and she kept telling everybody that it had been crushed because of a footman shutting the door of a landau too quickly. And at once I remembered the incident. It was Marie, her elder sister, who got her hand hurt rather badly, and it did not happen in a carriage but on board the imperial train. Obviously someone, having heard something of the incident, had passed a garbled version of it to Mrs Anderson.
According to Shura, one of the Grand Duchesses got her finger crushed in a landau accident, but she could not say for sure which one anymore. However, Captain Sablin from the Standart remembered the accident well since he was there when it happened to Anastasia. Also Admiral Shilling's niece and Professor Berg remembered the accident well.

Quote:
They pretend that she recognized me, but I want to tell you how it all happened: they had warned her of my visit. She herself acknowledged that they had said: 'On Tuesday you will be very happy. Someone is coming from Denmark.' Then, obviously, she could imagine the rest and wait for 'her aunt.' She was unable to reply to any of the small intimate questions which I put to her.
According to Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann, you know, the one who sent her manuscript to Olga for verification, wrote that "they sent in Olga after Gilliard to see if she would make a mistake and think it was Shura."
As far as the small intimate questions, read Bella Cohen's article in New York Times. It shows that AA mentioned rooms and names and trivial things that no Franziska would have known.

Quote:
"But the whole story is palpably false. I was convinced then, as I am now, that it is so from beginning to end. Just think of the supposed rescuers - vanishing into thin air, as it were! Had Nicky's daughter been really saved, her rescuers would have known just what it meant to them. Every royal house in Europe would have rewarded them. Why, I am sure that my mother would not have hesitated to empty her jewel-box in gratitude. There is not one tittle of genuine evidence in the story."
From Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann's book: "I am so glad I came. Mama was so angry with me for going to Berlin. If I only had some money, I would do anything for the little one. But I don't have any, I have to earn my pocket money by painting."
"Our little one and Shura seem happy to have found each other again."

Quote:
and of course, there's no need to even mention Gilliard or Ernst of Hesse because AA supporters call them 'liars.'
No need to. Gilliard was the one who made Olga come to Berlin, and then told Zahle that "we are leaving Berlin unable to say that she is NOT the Grand Duchess." Ernst of Hesse never saw her.
  #1450  
Old 08-19-2008, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
And even so, according to signed testimony from Miss van Oertzen, she begged AA to come home with her to Hemmelmark so the situation could be straightened out.
And didn't she and her husband send a letter to Von Kliest telling him to leave them alone, they had already made up their minds against her?


Quote:
And according to AA, she got up and left the table when she recognized her aunt Irene and realized that she had come to see her under an assumed name.
"According to AA" means nothing, since she was an imposter making up excuses.



Quote:
I think this came from her son in law, Prince Sigismund. And George Leuchtenberg was not a "supporter", he was the first one to willingly give her over to the police when the Schanzkowska scandal broke. Only after meeting Doris Wingender did he realize that something "was fundamentally wrong with that case."
Read Peter Kurth! Sigismund was her son, and the quote is directly attributed to
'an interview with Leuchtenberg' who was by then a solid supporter.



Quote:
Had she forgotten that Tatiana had dark grey eyes?
Probably she was going only by the general look of the features, you can't see the color from across the room anyway. Zina Tolstoy certainly forgot Tatiana had dark grey eyes when she said AA (as "Tatiana") had 'the eyes of the Tsar!'

Quote:
Yes, read her true story where she neglects to write about a certain interview with a certain Bolshevik. And don't forget, she was the only one who refused to testify for Sokolov, both in Russia and later in Europe.
She got no favors from them and spent over a year running for her life. The Bolsheviks didn't know about the jewels until the bodies were disposed of, so the story of her telling about them is bogus. Also Rasputin's son in law stole the money she got accused of taking. She had no money, and was broke on the run. The issue she had with Gibbes was over a loan they had taken out together and she not paying back- the woman had no money! If she had money and was given favors by the Bolsheviks why didn't she just take a train right out of the country? She didn't and she couldn't, not until a year later when the Brits helped her!
  #1451  
Old 08-19-2008, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post

Are we talking about the same Felix who, when seeing a photo of AA's hands, said to Gleb Botkin: Where did you get that photo of her Majesty's hands?
Where on earth did you get this, you are the only person I've ever seen say it.

Quote:
The same Felix who later was willing to acknowledge AA against a cut of the alleged Tsar's fortune?
This is a rumor, and hey, if he was willing to fake backing her for a cut of the money how can you be sure the other supporters, including the Botkins, didn't do the same?


Quote:
Why even mention prince Christopher? He never met AA. But, according to Gleb Botkin, he said about Olga that "She knows better than anybody that she is Anastasia."
Then it means nothing.



Quote:
Which does not gainsay his statement that "I believe she is the Grand Duchess."
When? Under what circumstances?

Quote:
By the way, I have seen you use the above statement several times, but you have never given a source for it. May we please have it?
You mean this?

But the whole story is palpably false. I was convinced then, as I am now, that it is so from beginning to end. Just think of the supposed rescuers - vanishing into thin air, as it were! Had Nicky's daughter been really saved, her rescuers would have known just what it meant to them. Every royal house in Europe would have rewarded them. Why, I am sure that my mother would not have hesitated to empty her jewel-box in gratitude. There is not one tittle of genuine evidence in the story." But the whole story is palpably false. I was convinced then, as I am now, that it is so from beginning to end. Just think of the supposed rescuers - vanishing into thin air, as it were! Had Nicky's daughter been really saved, her rescuers would have known just what it meant to them. Every royal house in Europe would have rewarded them. Why, I am sure that my mother would not have hesitated to empty her jewel-box in gratitude. There is not one tittle of genuine evidence in the story."

It came from AP, I don't know offhand, will look.

While we're asking for sources, I'm still waiting for you to prove that any 1994 British documentary said AA and AN were 'with certainty' the same person, or that any face exam matched up, or that the tests were redone in the states with the same results. NONE of this is accurate. The show was NOVA, and Oxlee's face tests declared AA to be FS. The ear tests said nothing of 'certainty' and there were no tests redone in the US. Unless you have proof otherwise, stop using this incorrect information.


Quote:
InHarriet Rathlef-Keilmann's version, AA did not say a word when Olga entered the room. Her eyes lit up, her face turned red, and she looked "radiantly happy"
Rathlef was a supporter, and a creative writer. Olga tells a different story.

Quote:
This version is backed up by Herluf Zahle and AA's surgeon, Professor Serge Rudnev. The manuscript was later sent to Olga in Copenhagen for verification, and she returned it, saying that the description of the events were "quite correct".
Rudnev was a supporter. There is no proof Olga read it and said anything, and, she didn't read German well.


Quote:
And as we now know from their workbooks from school, they all studied German seriously.
And my daughter took 3 years of French and now, after being out of school only a year, can't speak a word. This means NOTHING. And you have yet to prove the existence of much mentioned 'schoolbooks.' Olga A. said 'no German was used in the family.'

Quote:
Seeletter from Olga to Anatole Mordvinov where she states that "curiously enough, she seems to understand Russian, but prefers to answer in German."
No proof, just more smoke and mirrors. We can never be sure if any of this is even accurate.



Quote:
Even Gilliard could not get away from the fact that the eyes looked like the ones of the Grand Duchess.
And my daughter's eyes look just like Kiera Knightly. Let's put her in the next 'Pirates' movie and see if anyone notices. Giliard was a staunch opponent for years. AA's face looked nothing like AN, but looked like FS.


Quote:
Read Bella Cohen's article in the New York Times where she quotes Shura as talking about how AA recognized her in a photo even though her face was hidden behind a bell.
Then why did she think Shura was Olga when she first came in the room? Somebody had tipped her off ahead of time only it was the wrong person!





Quote:
It shows that AA mentioned rooms and names and trivial things that no Franziska would have known.
This is pointless! So somebody told FS/AA!

Sigh, here we go in circles again, same old lists, same old refutes. Nothing matters but the fact that all the bodies are now found and everyone died so no claimants are true.
  #1452  
Old 08-19-2008, 04:28 PM
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Okay Chat I found the source for the Olga quote you asked about, it's Vorres p. 177. Still waiting for you to clear up those false claims about the tests done for the TV show.

Here's something else interesting I found, Dmitri Leuchtenberg, son of George, wrote this to Vorres, Olga's biographer and is in the book "The Last Grand Duchess," p. 239-240:

The reasons for my disbelief in the authenticity of Mrs.Tschiakovsky-Anderson are as follows:

1. When Mrs. Tschiakovsky arrived in Seeon she did not speak or understand Russian; she did not speak or understand English, except for what she learned from lessons taken in Lugano and in Obersdorf before coming to Seeon; she did not speak or understand French. She spoke only German with a north German accent. Grand Duchess Anastasia, on the contrary, spoke always Russian to her father, English to her mother, understood and spoke French and did not speak any German.

2. When I took Mrs. Tschiakovsky to our Russian Orthodox church she behaved and acted as a Roman Catholic and did not know the Russian Orthodox rite, whereas Grand Duchess Anastasia and the whole imperial family were an extremely religious church going family, brought up entirely in the Russian Orthodox rite.

3. I was present during the surprise meeting of Mrs. Tschiakovsky with Felix Schankovsky [sic] when the latter recognised her as his sister Francizka Schankovsky [sic], agreeing to sign a statement to that effect. Later, following a short conference with his sister beyond our earshot, he refused to sign such a statement, for reasons that could be easily understood: he was a poor Communist miner, his mother was very ill with cancer without means, and his sister lived in a castle being treated as a potential Grand Duchess. Why should he spoil her 'career'?

4. All persons who knew the Grand Duchess well personally and saw Mrs. Tschaikovsky did not recognise her as being the Grand Duchess Anastasia. [Those who recognised her] did not know her at all, or with a few exceptions, only slightly. Some of those had aims of gain from that affair, but the majority were White Russians, loyal to the imperial family and approached the riddle of Tschiakovsky-Anderson under a strong influence of wishful thinking.

5. Dr. Kostrizky, the dentist of the imperial family, testified in writing that the jaws of Mrs. Tschiakovsky, of which we sent him a plaster impression made by our family dentist in 1927, have nothing in common with the jaws of Grand Duchess Anastasia.

My personal impression was that Mrs. Tschiakovsky-Anderson came from a family of a lower social stratum, she did not have the inborn grace of the members of the imperial family, and certainly did not act as a lady. My impressions are, of course, not a proof, but the above mentioned facts are.

In conclusion, I must mention that my father agreed to receive Mrs. Tschiakovsky in Seeon, because, as he told us: 'If she is the Grand Duchess, it would be a crime not to help her and if she is not the Grand Duchess, I do not commit a crime by giving shelter to a poor, sick, persecuted woman, while making investigations regarding her identity.

(signed) Dmitri Leuchtenberg.
  #1453  
Old 08-20-2008, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Where on earth did you get this, you are the only person I've ever seen say it.
No, I don't think so, we just discussed it a little while back. Anyway, it comes from Botkin's book. Unfortunately I don't have a scanner, or I could have enclosed the photo of AA's hands.


Quote:
This is a rumor, and hey, if he was willing to fake backing her for a cut of the money how can you be sure the other supporters, including the Botkins, didn't do the same?
No, it is not a rumor, it is also taken from Botkin's book. And we already know that the Botkins were not willing to take a penny from AA.

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Then it means nothing.
Neither does your opinion.

Quote:
When? Under what circumstances?
Volkov told Professor Serge Ostrogorsky in 1929 that "It is true, I believe that she is the Grand Duchess."

Quote:
You mean this?
I mean the account of Volkov talking about "the people around her acting suspiciously."

Quote:
While we're asking for sources, I'm still waiting for you to prove that any 1994 British documentary said AA and AN were 'with certainty' the same person, or that any face exam matched up, or that the tests were redone in the states with the same results. NONE of this is accurate. The show was NOVA, and Oxlee's face tests declared AA to be FS. The ear tests said nothing of 'certainty' and there were no tests redone in the US. Unless you have proof otherwise, stop using this incorrect information.
This information comes from "Tsar", and the name of the British scientist was Dr. Peter Vanesis, member of ICARIS at the Sheffield University Medical School. (International Centre for Advanced Research in Identification Science.)


Quote:
Rathlef was a supporter, and a creative writer. Olga tells a different story.
Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann was not a creative writer, she was an artist. She sent her manuscript through the Danish Embassy to Olga in the fall of 1926, and Olga only read the chapter dealing with her own visit to the invalid of which she found the account quite correct.

Quote:
Rudnev was a supporter. There is no proof Olga read it and said anything, and, she didn't read German well.
You make it sound like all "supporters" were lying. Please provide some examples of this. Olga would not have sent the manuscript back saying what she said if she had not read it.

Quote:
And my daughter took 3 years of French and now, after being out of school only a year, can't speak a word. This means NOTHING.
Yes, it means that your daughter obviously did not study well or has no aptitude for languages.

Quote:
And you have yet to prove the existence of much mentioned 'schoolbooks.' Olga A. said 'no German was used in the family.'
The schoolbooks were purchased by Ian Lilburn at an auction in London and were presented in the Hamburg court. They are now most likely a part of the German State Archives. And no German was used in the family except on occasions which made it necessary. This does not mean that the Grand Duchesses did not study German. In the Tsarinas diary, there is a note where she stated that she "helped Tatiana with a German lesson."

Quote:
No proof, just more smoke and mirrors. We can never be sure if any of this is even accurate.
The proof is in the letter written by Olga to colonel Anatoly Mordvinov where she writes: Curiously, she seems to understand Russian.....


Quote:
And my daughter's eyes look just like Kiera Knightly. Let's put her in the next 'Pirates' movie and see if anyone notices. Giliard was a staunch opponent for years. AA's face looked nothing like AN, but looked like FS.
Your daughter's eyes are hardly relevant here.
As for AA's face looking like that of AN, this is what Professor von Eyckstedt says: "with respect to none of the physical characteristics [of the face] were there any certain and constantly recurring deviations between Mrs. Anderson and Grand Duchess Anastasia" - in plain words, that the two women were identical. "It is not only possible that we are dealing with an identity," said Eyckstedt and his partner, W. Klenke, "it is the only acceptable solution."
This was later confirmed by Otto Reche and Mauritz Furtmayr.

Quote:
Then why did she think Shura was Olga when she first came in the room? Somebody had tipped her off ahead of time only it was the wrong person!
She did not at all think that Shura was Olga. Olga was already in the room, pretending not to know Shura, and asked AA who it was. "Shura", said AA. (They all heard it.)

Quote:
This is pointless! So somebody told FS/AA!
Pointless to you, maybe, because you cannot explain how she knew the intimate details from her family's life. And if you are going to harp on "somebody told her", I think we should soon be told who that "somebody" was.
  #1454  
Old 08-20-2008, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Here's something else interesting I found, Dmitri Leuchtenberg, son of George, wrote this to Vorres, Olga's biographer and is in the book "The Last Grand Duchess," p. 239-240:

The reasons for my disbelief in the authenticity of Mrs.Tschiakovsky-Anderson are as follows:

1. When Mrs. Tschiakovsky arrived in Seeon she did not speak or understand Russian; she did not speak or understand English, except for what she learned from lessons taken in Lugano and in Obersdorf before coming to Seeon; she did not speak or understand French. She spoke only German with a north German accent. Grand Duchess Anastasia, on the contrary, spoke always Russian to her father, English to her mother, understood and spoke French and did not speak any German.


It is a common fact that Dmitri Leuchtenberg was against AA from the very beginning.
And here is what his father wrote:
1. That the German she speaks is so faulty that it must be clear to everyone that German cannot be her mother tongue.
2 That she understands Russian escellently well, and could also s[peak Russian if she were not suffering from an inhibition.
3. That she not only understands English, but also reads, writes, and speaks English.

Quote:
2. When I took Mrs. Tschiakovsky to our Russian Orthodox church she behaved and acted as a Roman Catholic and did not know the Russian Orthodox rite, whereas Grand Duchess Anastasia and the whole imperial family were an extremely religious church going family, brought up entirely in the Russian Orthodox rite.


From his father's notes: Our most cultured and judicious priest said to me after the confession that she was without a doubt a member of the Orthodox Church. He had noticed certain little mannerisms in the invalid's behaviour which bore the stamp of the homely - one might say - rustic way in which the rites were administered in the Tsar's household.

Quote:
3. I was present during the surprise meeting of Mrs. Tschiakovsky with Felix Schankovsky [sic] when the latter recognised her as his sister Francizka Schankovsky [sic], agreeing to sign a statement to that effect. Later, following a short conference with his sister beyond our earshot, he refused to sign such a statement, for reasons that could be easily understood: he was a poor Communist miner, his mother was very ill with cancer without means, and his sister lived in a castle being treated as a potential Grand Duchess. Why should he spoil her 'career'?


There was no "surprise" meeting, AA knew exactly whom she was meeting and why. There was no "conference" out of earshot, everything took place at the same table with everyone present. AA had some difficulties understanding Felix due to his speaking low German. And he was not a communist miner, just a German miner. He was also told before the meeting, that if AA turned out to be his sister, she was still welcome to continue her stay at Schloss Seeon, and neither her, nor the family, would bear any responsibility for her. But he did not recognize AA as his sister, and refused to sign an affidavit "that may land him in jail."

Quote:
4. All persons who knew the Grand Duchess well personally and saw Mrs. Tschaikovsky did not recognise her as being the Grand Duchess Anastasia. [Those who recognised her] did not know her at all, or with a few exceptions, only slightly. Some of those had aims of gain from that affair, but the majority were White Russians, loyal to the imperial family and approached the riddle of Tschiakovsky-Anderson under a strong influence of wishful thinking.


I guess this includes the Botkin siblings, Captain Dassel, Lieutenant Arapov, Alexei Volkov, Lili Dehn etc etc.

Quote:
5. Dr. Kostrizky, the dentist of the imperial family, testified in writing that the jaws of Mrs. Tschiakovsky, of which we sent him a plaster impression made by our family dentist in 1927, have nothing in common with the jaws of Grand Duchess Anastasia.


Kostritsky testified to no such thing. All he said, was "Would I have left the teeth of the Grand Duchess in this condition." But he never testified against her.

Quote:
My personal impression was that Mrs. Tschiakovsky-Anderson came from a family of a lower social stratum, she did not have the inborn grace of the members of the imperial family, and certainly did not act as a lady. My impressions are, of course, not a proof, but the above mentioned facts are.


And this is what his father said: Never, even in her feverish fantasies, did she break any of the unwritten rules of our class.
Nina Chavchavadze, who did not believe in AA's claim, said after meeting her: Whoever she is, she is a lady of good society, and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian.

Quote:
In conclusion, I must mention that my father agreed to receive Mrs. Tschiakovsky in Seeon, because, as he told us: 'If she is the Grand Duchess, it would be a crime not to help her and if she is not the Grand Duchess, I do not commit a crime by giving shelter to a poor, sick, persecuted woman, while making investigations regarding her identity.


That seems to be the only true statement of his.
  #1455  
Old 08-20-2008, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
And didn't she and her husband send a letter to Von Kliest telling him to leave them alone, they had already made up their minds against her?
Yes, they did. The subject was taboo in the household because it upset Princess Irene too much.

Quote:
"According to AA" means nothing, since she was an imposter making up excuses.
Your opinion.

Quote:
Read Peter Kurth! Sigismund was her son,
Correct, I get a little vermischt now and then.

Quote:
and the quote is directly attributed to
'an interview with Leuchtenberg' who was by then a solid supporter.
"Later on in the decade Irene was deeply anxious to know what other family members thought about AA, and before her death in 1953, according to Grand Duke Andrew of Russia, she admitted that she "might have made a mistake and that it probably [was] Anastasia" (see letter of Grand Duke Andrew to Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, February 10, 1955, Hamburg)." (Peter Kurth)
I have no idea where the Duke of Leuchtenberg comes in....


Quote:
Probably she was going only by the general look of the features, you can't see the color from across the room anyway. Zina Tolstoy certainly forgot Tatiana had dark grey eyes when she said AA (as "Tatiana") had 'the eyes of the Tsar!'
So la Buxhoeveden tore her out of bed from across the room?

Quote:
She got no favors from them and spent over a year running for her life.
Not being shot together with Hendrikova and Schneider must have been quite a favor....

Quote:
The Bolsheviks didn't know about the jewels until the bodies were disposed of, so the story of her telling about them is bogus.
In his 1922 memoirs, Yurovsky wrote of "the damn valuables and jewels we knew they had concealed in their clothes when they arrived, which caused troubles to no end." (Yakov Yurovsky, unpublished memoirs, 1922, in Archives of the President of the Russian Federation (APRF) f.3, op.58, d.280)
  #1456  
Old 08-20-2008, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Yes, they did. The subject was taboo in the household because it upset Princess Irene too much.
PROVE IT! The letter you posted as 'proof' before says nothing of the kind. This is YOUR SPECULATION.

Quote:
(see letter of Grand Duke Andrew to Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, February 10, 1955, Hamburg)."
Where is this letter and who has it? Even if it is true, you know, dying 87 year old women imagine all sorts of things that aren't true. My aunt thinks a man lives inside her wall.

Quote:
(Peter Kurth)
I have no idea where the Duke of Leuchtenberg comes in....
He's listed as the source in the footnotes for the 'she is similar' speech in Riddle of Anastasia.


Quote:
So la Buxhoeveden tore her out of bed from across the room?
No she walked across the room and pulled down the sheets.



Quote:
Not being shot together with Hendrikova and Schneider must have been quite a favor....
She was put out with Gibbes and Gilliard mistaken for a foreign national due to her name.



Quote:
In his 1922 memoirs, Yurovsky wrote of "the damn valuables and jewels we knew they had concealed in their clothes when they arrived, which caused troubles to no end." (Yakov Yurovsky, unpublished memoirs, 1922, in Archives of the President of the Russian Federation (APRF) f.3, op.58, d.280)
Where is this alleged unpublished memoir? The real Yurovsky memoir has recently been found and translated, casting doubt on this alleged copy, especially since nobody can manage to produce it for translation by others. In the newly found real one, he is clearly surprised to see the jewels sewn into the clothes after they are dead, and only then did he have issues with them.
http://alexanderpalace.org/palace/Yu...teEnglish.html
  #1457  
Old 08-20-2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
[/i]

It is a common fact that Dmitri Leuchtenberg was against AA from the very beginning.
And here is what his father wrote:
1. That the German she speaks is so faulty that it must be clear to everyone that German cannot be her mother tongue.
2 That she understands Russian escellently well, and could also s[peak Russian if she were not suffering from an inhibition.
3. That she not only understands English, but also reads, writes, and speaks English.

From his father's notes: Our most cultured and judicious priest said to me after the confession that she was without a doubt a member of the Orthodox Church. He had noticed certain little mannerisms in the invalid's behaviour which bore the stamp of the homely - one might say - rustic way in which the rites were administered in the Tsar's household.
So why was the son so different? The son was the one who turned out to be right, and perhaps the father was embellishing for his own possible advantage$

Quote:
There was no "surprise" meeting, AA knew exactly whom she was meeting and why. There was no "conference" out of earshot, everything took place at the same table with everyone present.
And what is your proof of this? You value eyewitness testimony so much, well, Dmitri was there, so don't try to counteract what he saw with some quote from Botkin or Rathlef!


Quote:
I guess this includes the Botkin siblings, Captain Dassel, Lieutenant Arapov, Alexei Volkov, Lili Dehn etc etc.
We've been through all this before. You know what I think of those 'endorsements.' Botkins- in on it, Volkov- denied her in person, Dassel was tricked, Von Kliest's daughter told the story, and Dehn was old and her daughter denied her belief. As Dmitri said, those who knew AN best denied AA.

Quote:
Kostritsky testified to no such thing. All he said, was "Would I have left the teeth of the Grand Duchess in this condition." But he never testified against her.
This is your version, how can you prove Dmitri's isn't the right one?

Quote:
it comes from Botkin's book
Quote:
No, it is not a rumor, it is also taken from Botkin's book. And we already know that the Botkins were not willing to take a penny from AA.
Sigh...ho hum..whatever...case dismissed due to lack of credibility!

Quote:
And no German was used in the family except on occasions which made it necessary.
And what would this occasion be? They had no German visitors other than the family who spoke and wrote to them in English. This is proven by their correspondence as well as writings of those close to them.

No Germans came after 1914, that's for sure, so naturally the language was unused. For goodness sakes, the whole country was so anti German they changed the name of the city from St. Petersburg to Petrograd, you expect me to believe they were all scholarly studying German at that point?

Quote:
This information comes from "Tsar", and the name of the British scientist was Dr. Peter Vanesis, member of ICARIS at the Sheffield University Medical School. (International Centre for Advanced Research in Identification Science.)
This is what you posted earlier, the entire quote:

From "Tsar": In 1994, at the very moment the DNA experts concluded that Mrs, Anderson was not the tsar's daughter, new forensic comparions of her face an ears with pictures of the young Anastasia, commissioned for a television documentary in England and following routine procedures of legal identification, reached exactly the opposite conclusion. The expereiment was later successfully repeated by specialists in the United States, and their conclusions, too, were delivered with "certainty" - Anna Anderson was Anastasia. The DNA tests have won the hour, and will probably stand as the final work on a case that has left everyone who came near it, for or against, with a sense of tragedy and persistent, nagging doubts.

Vanesis was the EAR guy, and he never said there was anything with 'certainty.' He did NO face test, yet Oxlee did, and Oxlee declared AA and FS one and the same. NO tests were redone in the US. So the information in "Tsar" is unfortunately inaccurate and misleading.
  #1458  
Old 08-20-2008, 12:53 PM
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Okay, to clarify my above statement before anyone accuses me of anything, here are the facts vs. what the statement says:

From "Tsar": In 1994, at the very moment the DNA experts concluded that Mrs, Anderson was not the tsar's daughter, new forensic comparions of her face an ears with pictures of the young Anastasia, commissioned for a television documentary in England and following routine procedures of legal identification, reached exactly the opposite conclusion.

It doesn't say, but the show was NOVA: Anastasia- Dead or Alive. Vanesis and his team did the ear exams, and did find a close match in photos, however, none of them declared she was AN or said anything about 'certainty.'

Vanesis did not do the face comparisons, Geoffrey Oxlee did

http://www.kalagate.co.uk/staffgeoff.htm

and as you can see in the show- I have it on tape and screen caps to prove it- he computer fused a picture of AA with FS and found them to be identical. Therefore he did not 'reach the opposite conclusion' of the DNA tests, he agreed with them. The source is the show itself, if anyone can watch it, you'll see what I mean. The episode speaks for itself.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teacher..._anastasi.html

Quote:
The expereiment was later successfully repeated by specialists in the United States, and their conclusions, too, were delivered with "certainty" - Anna Anderson was Anastasia.


I am very, very sorry but this is just plain inaccurate. No tests were repeated in the US, and no one can produce any proof because it did not happen, and if anyone can produce evidence these tests took place, show us their results and names of those involved, go for it. NOBODY said 'with certainty that AA was AN.' This did not happen. I am not accusing anyone of lying, I have no idea why the misinformation made it to print, but whatever the reason, it is still not what really happened and should not be stated as fact anymore.
  #1459  
Old 08-20-2008, 02:34 PM
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I cannot find any connection with Peter Vanesis and NOVA. As far as I know, he was contacted by film maker Julian Knott to undertake an analysis of AA's ears and compare them to AA. He and and a team of four other scientists, each working in isolation, analyzed the pictures of AA and AN. 4 of them came to the conclusion that they were 100% certain that the photos depicted the same person. The 5th colleague failed to reach 100% of certainty.
  #1460  
Old 08-20-2008, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
So why was the son so different? The son was the one who turned out to be right, and perhaps the father was embellishing for his own possible advantage$
And why should he not be? As for the Duke of Leuchtenberg embellshing for his own possible advantages, you are again stooping to you usual accusation of greed being the motive for every AA supporter. You are really a class act..........


Quote:
And what is your proof of this? You value eyewitness testimony so much, well, Dmitri was there, so don't try to counteract what he saw with some quote from Botkin or Rathlef!
Don't try? You think you are the one who is so informed here? Well, then you should know that Botkin was not part of this meeting, but Dr. Völler and Mr. Schuhricht were. And when you have read their reports, you will also know that there was no "conversation out of earshot" between AA and Felix. Read Harriet Rathlef-Keilmann.


Quote:
We've been through all this before. You know what I think of those 'endorsements.
Yes, we all know what you think.

Quote:
Botkins- in on it,
Proof?

Quote:
Volkov- denied her in person,
He did no such thing.

Quote:
Dassel was tricked,
Oh, he was? Proof, please. And don't use Gerda von Kleist.

Quote:
Von Kliest's daughter told the story,
The same Gerda von Kleist who stated that her sister was dead when the sister was very much alive and well?

Quote:
and Dehn was old and her daughter denied her belief. As Dmitri said, those who knew AN best denied AA.
So Dehn was old? You seem to forget that Volkov was old, too. And what does the daughter have to do with Lili Dehn's opinion? From what you have posted before, she only confirms that there was no immediate recognition after all those years. And the ones who knew AA did not deny her, except for Gilliard and Olga, who arrived at their conclusions three months after seeing AA, and then never saw her again.

Quote:
This is your version, how can you prove Dmitri's isn't the right one?
It is up to you to prove that. If you can find Kostritki's "signed testimony", please post it here. I am sure that will be the surprise of the day!

Quote:
Sigh...ho hum..whatever...case dismissed due to lack of credibility!
Then show me just one thing that ruins his credibility.

Quote:
And what would this occasion be? They had no German visitors other than the family who spoke and wrote to them in English. This is proven by their correspondence as well as writings of those close to them.
You will hate my answer, but the information is in Gilliard's book "13 years...."

Quote:
No Germans came after 1914, that's for sure, so naturally the language was unused. For goodness sakes, the whole country was so anti German they changed the name of the city from St. Petersburg to Petrograd, you expect me to believe they were all scholarly studying German at that point?
Go to Lausanne and take a look at Gilliard's time tables from Tobolsk. They clearly schedule the Grand Duchesses for an hour German lessons every day. His time tables are on display at the University of Lausanne.

Quote:
This is what you posted earlier, the entire quote:

From "Tsar": In 1994, at the very moment the DNA experts concluded that Mrs, Anderson was not the tsar's daughter, new forensic comparions of her face an ears with pictures of the young Anastasia, commissioned for a television documentary in England and following routine procedures of legal identification, reached exactly the opposite conclusion. The expereiment was later successfully repeated by specialists in the United States, and their conclusions, too, were delivered with "certainty" - Anna Anderson was Anastasia. The DNA tests have won the hour, and will probably stand as the final work on a case that has left everyone who came near it, for or against, with a sense of tragedy and persistent, nagging doubts.

Vanesis was the EAR guy, and he never said there was anything with 'certainty.' He did NO face test, yet Oxlee did, and Oxlee declared AA and FS one and the same. NO tests were redone in the US. So the information in "Tsar" is unfortunately inaccurate and misleading.
Look at previous post.
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