Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[AGRBear]

There is no such thing, as a "general mental deterioration", in aging. Many elderly people retain their ability to be sharp and mentally acute. Some, do have unfortunate diseases, such as Alzheimers and related illness. This is not "general". AA may have suffered from one of these problems, or she might have been mentally from a very early age.

I was referring to people in general as they age.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

From Gleb Botkin's book:

Hence the efforts to prove, take what it may, that Anastasia was Francisca, and the consequent necessity of fabricating spurious evidence in the complete absence of actual facts.
Some of those efforts, however, in spite of their sordidness, bordered on the comical. For instance, Detective Knopf had attempted to persuade the relatives of Francisca, that she had had a child or a miscarriage. But those relatives who until then, had appared willing, for a price, to testify to almost anything, emphatically refused to defame the missing Francisca's character. M. Gilliard then promptly declared that Anastasia had invented the story of having given birth to a son, and that the doctors must always have known it, for why otherwise had she been registered in the Dalldorf asylum as Miss Unknown instead of Mrs. Unknown!

Evidently, Detective Knopf laid money in a number of hands for the sole purpose that the receiver of these funds testify that AA was FS. Why was this necessary? All they had to do was find people other than the Wingenders to tell the court they knew AA was FS. Afterall, FS hadn't lived an isolated life. She had worked with people in the asparagus fields, bottle factory, as a waitress, in private homes... What about her old school friends? By goodness, what about some people from the village where she grew to the age of 16 who knew her from the time she was born? No one from the factory, where people would have remember the girl,FS, who dropped a grenade that killed a man testified she was FS....

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

....[in part]...

Bear has shown me nothing of the kind. The Putch was joined by the Police. You are incredibly delusional to believe they were going about business as usual while part of a coup, or for days/weeks after as unrest and riots ensued. One missing girl among many in a postwar city of many missing people was hardly a high priority. This is why her case slipped thru the cracks in the early days of the investigation.
....

Let me see if I can explain it so you understand this time.

The telegram I showed held the date when the Putch begain, which shows you the mail continued through these four days.

Yes, there were a group of Police who revolted at the same time but their grievances were quickly satisfied by the alliances who had tried to eliminate their division. The division of police which handled the Putch were not part of the divisions of police and their detectives who continued with their daily cases, including AA's which were not interrupted as AWF seems to think that they were.

I've given examples, which AWF has read, from police who were working in Berlin at that time to back what I've just restated.

We know that the Berlin police sent AA's photographs and fingerprints to the local asylums, hospitals and other police stations as far away as Posen. They brought family members, who had females missing that matched AA's description, to Dalldorf to see if AA was their missing relative. There was one female's family member brought from Posen who said AA was their missing person.

As Chat reminds us, AA lived with Berlin Police Inspector Grünberg for a short time.

When the serial killer Grossmann went to trial in 1921, FS's name appeared in the eyes of the police as well as the public. Grossmann was accused of three deaths, one being that of FS's. I assume there were photographs of this famous case in the newspapers.

No one. Let me repeat, "no one" came forth and claimed FS was alive. Not even FS's family. Not the Wingenders. No one at Dalldorf. No one at any of the institutions in which FS had been.

AGRBear

 

[ChatNoir]

No one. Let me repeat, "no one" came forth and claimed FS was alive. Not even FS's family. Not the Wingenders. No one at Dalldorf. No one at any of the institutions in which FS had been.
AGRBear

Well, actually the Wingenders did come forward claiming that AA was FS. Apparently Doris "recognized" FS from a blurb in the newspaper from which, as the judge said, "you could recognize anybody or nobody."
She allegedly had a visit from FS in May or June in 1922, and when she visited Mr. Lücke at the Nachtausgabe with her information, her first question was: What is it worth to you? Detective Martin Knopf was called in, hired by the Nachtausgabe, but paid by the Grand Duke of Hesse, to connect the dots, and he told Doris that the visit from FS had to have occurred in August in order to tie it to AA's disappearance from the Kleist's apartment. (During these days she was staying with Clara Marie Peuthert.) Doris and Martin compromised, and the Nachtausgabe wrote that the visit took place in "summer". Later Martin Knopf said that he had obtained the clothing that FS had left at the Wingenders. The Nachtausgabe wrote that Baron Kleist and his wife had identified the clothing as that of AA, notwithstanding a declaration under oath from the Baroness that the Nachtausgabe was lying. The clothing then "disappeared" and was never seen again. Doris had a photo of herself wearing the suit that she "gave" to FS, and produced in court the same photo plus one of AA "wearing the same suit for everyone to see." Well, after examining the photos, it became clear that the suits were different, and AA's suit had a belt and buttons drawn in after the fact.
As we know, Doris Wingender was paid DM1500 for "identifying" AA as FS.

Bruno Grandsitsky claimed to have met FS in Danzig in June of 1920, and I also mentioned the three nurses from an asylum near Breslau who saw the picture of the real FS in the paper. They recognized her as a former patient of theirs from 1929 to 1934.

 

[AGRBear]

Oops! I wasn't very clear. I meant none of them came forward during Grossmann's trial and testified that FS was alive and hadn't been murdered by Grossmann.

Sorry.

AGRBear

 

[tsarskoe]

Regarding Franziska's mental health records. I too have heard that her records still exist (of her hospitalizations prior to 1920) I find the claim that workers from one of the hospitals stated that Franziska had been in the hospital in the late 1920's very odd and simply inaccurate for several reasons. Why are there no records of this-if her previous records still exist why dont any of these later records? I think it highly unlikely that Franziska would have been in a hospital and those records would not have been presented by AA's lawyers during the trial. In addition certainly her family would have been contacted, as we know Franziska kept in contact with at least Felix if not her other siblings before she disappeared in 1920. By the late 1920's AA's possible identity with Franziska was already made and the Berlin police dept was well aware of this possible connection. If Franziska had ended up in an asylum the police would have been contacted had she identified herself. Also certainly like Doris one would think that someone at the hospital would see a very easy way of making money to prove that AA could not have been Franziska since she was locked up in an asylum since it was well publicized in the German (especially Berlin) newspapers, magazines and even in books. Personally I believe that if AA wasn't Franziska and the "real" Franziska was wandering around in Berlin in the late 1920's certainly this matter would have been cleared up long ago. Either Franziska was dead, not in Berlin or she was in actuality AA.

With regards to Baroness Kleist's oath that the statement that she had not recognized the clothes presented to her. I would like to assert that her husband was also quoted as to having recognized the clothes (especially the coat which he himself had bought for AA when out of the country) and to my knowledge he never contradicted this. It should be pointed out that the Baroness supported AA's claim while her husband and one of her daughters did not.

I would also like to have a discussion about the repeated claims made throughout this thread that Pierre Gilliard lied on numerous occasions and that his testimony cannot be trusted. I would like specifics so that we can see whether or not such claims are valid. I would like to see evidence to support this.

 

[ChatNoir]

Regarding Franziska's mental health records. I too have heard that her records still exist (of her hospitalizations prior to 1920) I find the claim that workers from one of the hospitals stated that Franziska had been in the hospital in the late 1920's very odd and simply inaccurate for several reasons. Why are there no records of this-if her previous records still exist why dont any of these later records? I think it highly unlikely that Franziska would have been in a hospital and those records would not have been presented by AA's lawyers during the trial. In addition certainly her family would have been contacted, as we know Franziska kept in contact with at least Felix if not her other siblings before she disappeared in 1920. By the late 1920's AA's possible identity with Franziska was already made and the Berlin police dept was well aware of this possible connection. If Franziska had ended up in an asylum the police would have been contacted had she identified herself. Also certainly like Doris one would think that someone at the hospital would see a very easy way of making money to prove that AA could not have been Franziska since she was locked up in an asylum since it was well publicized in the German (especially Berlin) newspapers, magazines and even in books. Personally I believe that if AA wasn't Franziska and the "real" Franziska was wandering around in Berlin in the late 1920's certainly this matter would have been cleared up long ago. Either Franziska was dead, not in Berlin or she was in actuality AA.

The nurses came forward during the trial, years after FS allegedly had been their patient. She was not identified during her stay and went by the name of "Anastasia". The nurses were heard by the court before they broke the session for summer vacation. See Peter Kurth, page 355, I think. (I'm at work and don't have the books with me.)

With regards to Baroness Kleist's oath that the statement that she had not recognized the clothes presented to her. I would like to assert that her husband was also quoted as to having recognized the clothes (especially the coat which he himself had bought for AA when out of the country) and to my knowledge he never contradicted this. It should be pointed out that the Baroness supported AA's claim while her husband and one of her daughters did not.

And what happened tho these clothes? Why were they not presented as evidence?

I would also like to have a discussion about the repeated claims made throughout this thread that Pierre Gilliard lied on numerous occasions and that his testimony cannot be trusted. I would like specifics so that we can see whether or not such claims are valid. I would like to see evidence to support this.

He lied when he said that "Neither he, nor his wife, could find any likeness between AA and AN apart from the color of her eyes." That was after his wife identified the Hallux Valgus on her feet, verified various scars on her body and Gilliard himself stated that the Grand Duchess was "une veritable ruin" and that he would do anything he could to help the Grand Duchess,. When AA talked about the Malachite Room, he stated that there was no such room in the palace. When AA mentioned the swastika on the car, he published a photo of the car with a big swastika drawn on the door to show the world that nobody could miss that thing. There is also something with the Blue Regiment and the Samovar at Moghilev, but I have to look these up. When Dr. Bishof was doing his photographic comparison, Gilliard gave him a photo of Olga with her head shaved to compare to AA. Both Volkov and Felix Yussupov confirmed that the photo was not of Anastasia. When Gleb Botkin wrote him from New York to get more info on the case before he visited AA at Seeon, Gilliard ensured him that "everything he had heard Gilliard say before January 1926, was Bolshevik propaganda." He also stated that the Grand Duchess did not know any German, and he himself scheduled the children for German lessons as late as Tobolsk. Of course, we know from their workbooks that they all studied German seriously.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The nurses came forward during the trial, years after FS allegedly had been their patient. She was not identified during her stay and went by the name of "Anastasia". The nurses were heard by the court before they broke the session for summer vacation.

Huh? She was allegedly FS but got called Anastasia? So FS was AN, not AA?

And what happened tho these clothes? Why were they not presented as evidence?

Possibly destroyed by the wife who didn't want the claim ruined?

He lied when he said that "Neither he, nor his wife, could find any likeness between AA and AN apart from the color of her eyes." That was after his wife identified the Hallux Valgus on her feet, verified various scars on her body and Gilliard himself stated that the Grand Duchess was "une veritable ruin" and that he would do anything he could to help the Grand Duchess,. When AA talked about the Malachite Room, he stated that there was no such room in the palace. When AA mentioned the swastika on the car, he published a photo of the car with a big swastika drawn on the door to show the world that nobody could miss that thing. There is also something with the Blue Regiment and the Samovar at Moghilev, but I have to look these up. When Dr. Bishof was doing his photographic comparison, Gilliard gave him a photo of Olga with her head shaved to compare to AA. Both Volkov and Felix Yussupov confirmed that the photo was not of Anastasia. When Gleb Botkin wrote him from New York to get more info on the case before he visited AA at Seeon, Gilliard ensured him that "everything he had heard Gilliard say before January 1926, was Bolshevik propaganda." He also stated that the Grand Duchess did not know any German, and he himself scheduled the children for German lessons as late as Tobolsk. Of course, we know from their workbooks that they all studied German seriously.

None of your comments ever prove Gilliard lied. He could be mistaken, or some of this may not be the truth.Also, much of it is taken out of context, such as the German lessons you so highly tout. Just because a person takes lessons does NOT know they know the language, we've been through this numerous times. People who knew the family all clearly stated German was not used by the family, and AN did not know it well at all.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

From Gleb Botkin's book:

Hence the efforts to prove, take what it may, that Anastasia was Francisca, and the consequent necessity of fabricating spurious evidence in the complete absence of actual facts.

Of course, Gleb was an ardent supporter and a creative writer trying to sell her story, so naturally his own spin and desperation to keep his cash cow legend alive was a factor, which taints his objectivity.

Some of those efforts, however, in spite of their sordidness, bordered on the comical. For instance, Detective Knopf had attempted to persuade the relatives of Francisca, that she had had a child or a miscarriage. But those relatives who until then, had appared willing, for a price, to testify to almost anything, emphatically refused to defame the missing Francisca's character. M. Gilliard then promptly declared that Anastasia had invented the story of having given birth to a son, and that the doctors must always have known it, for why otherwise had she been registered in the Dalldorf asylum as Miss Unknown instead of Mrs. Unknown!

As I keep saying, an illegitimate baby was a shameful thing back then- not just to the girl but the whole family, and great lengths were taken to hide it. Mothers, older sisters, even Grandmothers claimed such offspring and never told the baby the truth. Others were simply 'sent away' until they gave birth and came back to town skinny again after adopting out the baby in an unwed mothers' home, but with fake stories of a trip to Aunt Meg's or whatever. Even today, I have a cousin 47 years old who was conceived in an affair his mother had with the Krispy Kreme donut man while her husband was overseas with the Army, and he still doesn't know her husband isn't his father! This is a disgraceful shame in our family, and I am one of the few who know it. So the point is, their denial of her pregnancy/baby either means:

1. They didn't want public shame on the family via the news stories
2. They honestly didn't know, because the pregnancy occured away from home and she never told them

M. Gilliard then promptly declared that Anastasia had invented the story of having given birth to a son, and that the doctors must always have known it, for why otherwise had she been registered in the Dalldorf asylum as Miss Unknown instead of Mrs. Unknown!

It's highly likely she did invent it, since if she (as FS) gave birth to a girl,or miscarried or had an abortion, saying she had a son would be invented. Even if she did give birth to a boy, it wasn't the way AA described it, because the whole Romania bit never occured. Gosh, I'd like to find out and prove what really happened to FS's poor baby!

Evidently, Gilliard did not know that AA was registered at the hospital and in the early days at Dalldorf as Miss Unknown. It was after the doctors examined her and placed on her medical report that she had given birth to a child that the records scratched out "Miss" and changed her status to "Mrs".

This is yet another example of just how disgraceful a 'bastard' child was in those days, that even an insane unknown could not be branded an out of wedlock mother! Of course, a marriage license is not a requirement for pregnancy as far is nature is concerned , so that was only for society's benefit.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Oops! I wasn't very clear. I meant none of them came forward during Grossmann's trial and testified that FS was alive and hadn't been murdered by Grossmann.

Sorry.

AGRBear

Considering Grossman died - by suicide hanging in his jail cell- in July 1921, no one would have known FS was alive as AA since AA had not yet come into the public eye, and no investigators had found her to be the same person yet. AA did not come to fame until 1922, the FS ID was not made until 1927. This was the limbo time when AA/FS remained "Miss Unknown" in the asylum. No one knew where FS was at that time.(spring/summer 1921) However, in 1927, Heinz Drescher of the Berlin PD agreed with Darmstadt's ID of AA as FS and signed documents saying so. This means they no longer considered her a possible victim of Grossman and his black market meat sale (or hot dog stand)

It also needs to be noted that FS's name was NOT mentioned- one scribbling in his diary mentioned a "Sasnovski" but this is not close to her name, and no proof at all. Only the body of his last victim was found, and there was no evidence of any of the others.

 

[ChatNoir]

Another snippet from Gleb Botkin's book:

The photograph of Francisca, published in one of Gilliard's articles, also showed plainly traces of retouching, made in an effort to create some resemblance between Francisca and the recent photographs of Grand Duchess Anastasia. In spite of it, the faces were so utterly different, that Gilliard himself could think of nothing better than to print over the photographs of Francisca and Anastasia the caption: "The Gradual Transformation of Francisca Schanzkovska's Face."
It was, indeed, quite a transformation!
In another article, Gilliard declared that my sister had acknowledged Mrs. Tschaikovsky as Anastasia, because she had been hypnotised by Mrs. von Rathlef. Aside from the fact that Mrs. von Rathlef had never been known to possess any talent as a hypnotist, M. Gilliard knew quite well that my sister had never even met Mrs. von Rathlef and was, moreover, openly hostile to her. Like Anastasia, my sister attributed all the intrigues against the Grand Duchess to the publicity given by her case by Mrs. von Rathlef, and accused the latter - quite unfairly, - of having published her articles about Anastasia for the sole purpose of making money.

It was the same resourceful M. Gilliard who, as far back as the beginning of 1926, had started the legend that Grand Duchess Anastasia had been "invented" by the Bolsheviks; although what the Bolsheviks could possibly want with her did not appear clear.

From Peter Kurth's book:

Finally, Grand Duke Andrew of Russia, after he had studied the case in depth, reported that in his opinion Frau von Rathlef's narrative was not only accurate, but in fact "a minimization of what really took place..." He continued, "Sadly, I must report that everything Gilliard writes to me about the meetings in Berlin deviates very much from the truth."

 

[Anna was Franziska]

The common defense by AA supporters then and now that the FS pic was 'retouched' to look like AA is self defeating- because the picture does NOT look like AN! If AA were AN, and someone was trying to make a picture of FS look like AA, wouldn't they make it look like AN? So therefore AA does not look like AN! (but does look like FS)

The other argument is that the FS picture is 'unauthenticated.' Well, whoever she is, she looks exactly like AA!
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/anisfran2.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/hellofran.jpghttp://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...aafsfaces3.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c.../aafsfaces.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c.../aafsoxlee.jpg

Compare the features, face shape, even the hair part and eyebrows! How can anyone not see this is the same woman? The first one is the comparison I find most identical, and the last is the one used by British facial and forensic expert Geoffrey Oxlee to determine AA and FS were the same person using computerized tests in 1994.

 

[ChatNoir]

From Peter Kurth:

"The only purpose of these retouchings was to heighten the resemblance between Fräulein Schanzkowska and Mrs. Anderson". Still the operation had not succeeded. During his study of the photographs Reche had observed that the height, the width, and the form of Franziska's face deviated grossly not only from AA's, but identically from the face of the Tsar's daughter. That fact, Reche said, had to be taken as another indication that AA and the Tsar's daughter were one and the same.
AA's face, Reche continued, had matched the face of the Tsar's daughter "sometimes to the very millimeter." The only deviations were the normal ones brought about by age, but there had been no fundamental differences in the structure of the bones.. "Such coincidence between two human faces," Reche summed up, "is not possible unless they are the same person or identical twins."

Also from Peter Kurth:

The document was a report of the results of anthropological study, conducted at the University of Mainz by Baron von Eyckstedt, Professor and Honorary Doctor, and his partner, W. Klenke. It had concluded on the basis of a comparison of more than three hundred photographs - some of AA, some of the Tsar's dauthter, and some of the various mambers of the Russian imperial fmily and the House of Hesse - that "with respect to none of the physical characteristics [of the face] were there any certain and constantly recurring deviations between Mrs. Anderson and Grand Duchess Anastasia" - in plain words, that the two women were identical. "It is not only possible that we are dealing with an identity," sayd Eckstedt and Klenke "it is the only acceptable solution."

 

[heathshire]

Why keep bringing this up, since DNA proves she isn't who she says she is??

 

[Warren]

Some accept the validity of the DNA results and the integrity of the scientists who conducted the research and some, for their own reasons, don't.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I must point out again that Reche was a Nazi discredited by his peers, and that none of the evidence mentioned by Chat was ever accepted by the courts during the AA trials.

Oxlee's tests were much more high tech and modern. Here's more on Oxlee's impressive credentials.

Kalagate - The U.K.'s leading expert imagery interpretation bureau - Experts in Facial Mapping and Imagery Enhancement

It's because so many refute the DNA that I still try to show other ways she's still not Anastasia, and how much of the legend surrounding her isn't even accurate if you check into the details behind the bold claims. Of course, those who don't accept the DNA will never accept anything else either, it's just for the record for anyone else who might really want answers instead of a fantasy. What really gets to me now about those who are in denial about the DNA is that now it's not just the intestine and hair tests, the bones of the last missing kids have been found and identified, proving NO ONE ESCAPED, and still they come up with wild reasons why it's all wrong. It's hard to believe some people want to hold onto AA so tightly that they can't just accept reality.

 

[ChatNoir]

I'm afraid Dr. Peter Vanesis cancels this one out.

 

[tsarskoe]

For years I had several misconceptions about Pierre Gilliard. This was due entirely to statements made by AA supporters. These included

1. AA said there was a samovar in the headquarters at Moghilev. Gilliard denied it and later there was indeed is proof that there was one.
2. AA said there was a "Malachite Room" in one of the palaces. Gilliard said there wasn't and indeed there was.
3. AA spoke German. Pierre Gilliard denied the Duchesses studied German and later in his own records he detailed the time tables for the Duchesses German studies in Siberia.
4. AA said Anastasia had her own regiment, aka the "blue regiment" (She could not remember the name of "her" own regiment) and Gilliard denied it and later it was proven to have been true.

All of the above is inaccurate and misleading. These stories are inaccuracies which have been perpetuated for a long time since Gilliard's book is in French and not accessible in English. If one reads his book La Fausse Anastasie one can see that the above arguments are patently false. See below for clarifications.

With regards to the statement about the Samovar at Moghilev. AA stated that they had a samovar at "home" aka Tsarskoe Selo. In fact tea was always served to the Imperial Family (except the empress who received an alcohol lamp and a large silver boiler) two silver tea pots- one with tea and one with hot water. Whether there was a Samovar in Moghilev is irrelevant since Gilliard was proving that the family did not use samovars in Tsarskoe Selo.

And regarding AA's statement about the "Malachite room". In fact Gilliard was not arguing that there was a malachite room in the Winter Palace but was disproving a quote from AA whereby she said
that in "several" of the rooms in Tsarskoe Selo the base of the windows were malachite, which of course they were not.

The claim that Pierre Gilliard said Anastasia did not speak German. It is true that he stated this, as did Sophie Bux. In his book it states that Anastasia did study German, in fact he mentions by name her professor Herr Kleinenberg. He also accurately points out that Anastasia never spoke German outside of her lessons (She spoke English with her Mother and Russian with her Father).

Gilliard confirmed AA's account that Anastasia had been given a regiment of her own during the war. Oddly AA did not recall the name of Anastasia's regiment. AA had in accurately stated that there had been a ceremony/parade/review when she was given her regiment and gave a few specific details indicating that she remembered the event well. Gilliard quotes Colonel Kolioubakine and and General Repiev who both served in the 148th regiment of infantry Kaspiiski and both stated that at the time that Anastasia was named Colonel in Chief to the regiment the regiment was already at the front. Colonel Kolioubakine alone was presented to Anastasia (Along with the Tsar and Empress) he also stated that monthly telegrams were sent to Anastasia updating her as to the regiments progress.

The claim that Gilliard substituted a photo of Olga in place of Anastasia is incorrect. Even PK admitted as much on another board. Yes Felix Y. and Volkov said it looked like Olga but they were incorrect. It was in fact Anastasia.

With regards to the photograph of the Empresses Car with the Swastika, Gillard did publish the photograph on it-though the swastika is on the hood and not the door and indeed it has been highlighted-He made two points about it.
1. Gilliard verified through Captain Schwabe that AA had infact seen the photograph in a series of photographs published by Russian Monarchist Supreme Council well before she declared this "memory" to Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann.
2.AA stated clearly that it was the Empress's car that the Swastika was placed. It was not the Empress's car but in fact the Tsar's (the car had been a gift to the Tsar). The Empress herself preferred either Rolls Royce or a Renault. AA saw the photo in question which shows the Empress in the car and assumed it belonged to the Empress.

 

[ChatNoir]

For years I had several misconceptions about Pierre Gilliard. This was due entirely to statements made by AA supporters. These included

1. AA said there was a samovar in the headquarters at Moghilev. Gilliard denied it and later there was indeed is proof that there was one.
2. AA said there was a "Malachite Room" in one of the palaces. Gilliard said there wasn't and indeed there was.
3. AA spoke German. Pierre Gilliard denied the Duchesses studied German and later in his own records he detailed the time tables for the Duchesses German studies in Siberia.
4. AA said Anastasia had her own regiment, aka the "blue regiment" (She could not remember the name of "her" own regiment) and Gilliard denied it and later it was proven to have been true.

All of the above is inaccurate and misleading. These stories are inaccuracies which have been perpetuated for a long time since Gilliard's book is in French and not accessible in English. If one reads his book La Fausse Anastasie one can see that the above arguments are patently false. See below for clarifications.

With regards to the statement about the Samovar at Moghilev. AA stated that they had a samovar at "home" aka Tsarskoe Selo. In fact tea was always served to the Imperial Family (except the empress who received an alcohol lamp and a large silver boiler) two silver tea pots- one with tea and one with hot water. Whether there was a Samovar in Moghilev is irrelevant since Gilliard was proving that the family did not use samovars in Tsarskoe Selo.

And where and when did AA state this? And what is the exact difference between a samovar and a boiler with a lamp underneath?

And regarding AA's statement about the "Malachite room". In fact Gilliard was not arguing that there was a malachite room in the Winter Palace but was disproving a quote from AA whereby she said
that in "several" of the rooms in Tsarskoe Selo the base of the windows were malachite, which of course they were not.

According to Harriet Rathlef Keilman, AA said that in one of the palaces there was a room with pillars and window seats made of malachite. (There were actually two Malachite rooms, one in the Winter Palace and one in the Kremlin Palace.) Where is the quote that she said "several rooms in Tsarskoe Selo"?

The claim that Pierre Gilliard said Anastasia did not speak German. It is true that he stated this, as did Sophie Bux. In his book it states that Anastasia did study German, in fact he mentions by name her professor Herr Kleinenberg. He also accurately points out that Anastasia never spoke German outside of her lessons (She spoke English with her Mother and Russian with her Father).

And was he with Anastasia 24/7? And why did he state in court that German was a language that the Grand Duchess did not know?

Gilliard confirmed AA's account that Anastasia had been given a regiment of her own during the war. Oddly AA did not recall the name of Anastasia's regiment.

Correct, but she knew all her sisters' and her brother's regiments.

AA had in accurately stated that there had been a ceremony/parade/review when she was given her regiment and gave a few specific details indicating that she remembered the event well.

Gilliard quotes Colonel Kolioubakine and and General Repiev who both served in the 148th regiment of infantry Kaspiiski and both stated that at the time that Anastasia was named Colonel in Chief to the regiment the regiment was already at the front. Colonel Kolioubakine alone was presented to Anastasia (Along with the Tsar and Empress) he also stated that monthly telegrams were sent to Anastasia updating her as to the regiments progress.

What were the specific details?

The claim that Gilliard substituted a photo of Olga in place of Anastasia is incorrect. Even PK admitted as much on another board. Yes Felix Y. and Volkov said it looked like Olga but they were incorrect. It was in fact Anastasia.

And how do we know that?

With regards to the photograph of the Empresses Car with the Swastika, Gillard did publish the photograph on it-though the swastika is on the hood and not the door and indeed it has been highlighted-He made two points about it.

The picture in question was published in an article in the newspaper, not in his book.

1. Gilliard verified through Captain Schwabe that AA had infact seen the photograph in a series of photographs published by Russian Monarchist Supreme Council well before she declared this "memory" to Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann.

Where were these photos published?

2.AA stated clearly that it was the Empress's car that the Swastika was placed. It was not the Empress's car but in fact the Tsar's (the car had been a gift to the Tsar). The Empress herself preferred either Rolls Royce or a Renault. AA saw the photo in question which shows the Empress in the car and assumed it belonged to the Empress.

Could you please post the photo here?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And was he with Anastasia 24/7?

You're not going to win even on reasonable doubt on this one. EVERYONE who knew the family closely said they spoke Russian with Nicholas, English with Alexandra and learned French well, yet did not know/did not use German. It's not just Gilliard.

And why did he state in court that German was a language that the Grand Duchess did not know?

Because they did not know it. I know a guy who studied it in High School and college and doesn't know it. Taking lessons- in ANYTHING- does NOT equal 'knowing' it. Many people, including those who wrote books on the family, stated the children did not speak German and it was never used. Why would it be? What use would they have for it? The German relations spoke and wrote to them in English, Alexandra's siblings and even the kaiser used English with them. After WWI broke out, no Germans were coming around. You are just desperately grasping at any hope somewhere in some secret room AN knew German because it was what AA used instead of the three AN knew well. The language issue is a major blow to the AA case.

Like Tsarskoe, I used to be misled by broad statements made by AA supporters, but when you dig deeper into the stories behind them, it's very different. (which is why I made my site) One of these is that AA knew all the languages AN knew. Not true, and the fact that she emerged using exclusively German when this would have been AN's worst language is a big strike against her.

Tsarskoe, thanks for your info and please do post more from La Fausse when you get a chance.

 

[ChatNoir]

Another interesting thing is that AA spoke a very bad German with a Russian accent (Sophie von Buxhoeveden, among others) while FS spoke good German.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Another interesting thing is that AA spoke a very bad German with a Russian accent (Sophie von Buxhoeveden, among others) while FS spoke good German.

Interesting you grasp onto one taken out of context thing by Bux while defaming the woman as a liar and a traitor all the time. What she said was AN knew 'a few German words'. I know a few German words, too, this really doesn't mean anything. Bux along with Gilliard, Anna V., Olga A. and Felix Y. stated AN knew Russian English and French and not GErman. AA obviously spoke good enough German to use it as her main language ALL HER LIFE, from the time she was found to her old age even after many years in the US. This sounds to me like FS, not AN.

 

[ChatNoir]

Interesting you grasp onto one taken out of context thing by Bux while defaming the woman as a liar and a traitor all the time.

Again, please point out the post where I call Buxhoeveden a liar! Your accusations have to stop! Her accusations of betraying the IF comes from Russian files, not from me. Got it?

What she said was AN knew 'a few German words'. I know a few German words, too, this really doesn't mean anything. Bux along with Gilliard, Anna V., Olga A. and Felix Y. stated AN knew Russian English and French and not GErman. AA obviously spoke good enough German to use it as her main language ALL HER LIFE, from the time she was found to her old age even after many years in the US. This sounds to me like FS, not AN.

Yes, she said that AA knew a few German words with a heavy Russian accent. Probably the same as Anastasia knew from her lessons in Russia. And German was not her main language all her life, as soon as she landed in New York, she spoke fluent English and did so throughout the duration of her stay. And she also used it again when she moved to Charlottesville.
FS spoke good German, no English, no Russian and no French.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Again, please point out the post where I call Buxhoeveden a liar! Your accusations have to stop! Her accusations of betraying the IF comes from Russian files, not from me. Got it?

No, there is no proof she betrayed them in fact it's been disproven. You call her a liar every time you refuse to accept her denial of AA as legitimate.

Yes, she said that AA knew a few German words with a heavy Russian accent. Probably the same as Anastasia knew from her lessons in Russia.

Um, no. AN knew 'a few words', AA used German as her main functional language. The real AN would never have chosen a language she knew very few words of over three she knew very well.

And German was not her main language all her life, as soon as she landed in New York, she spoke fluent English and did so throughout the duration of her stay. And she also used it again when she moved to Charlottesville.

We'll never know just how good her coached English was in the late 20's, but even in her old age she preferred German and called her husband "Hans." People who met her in her later years said Manahan had to translate for her since, according to one, "German was her only functional language."

FS spoke good German, no English, no Russian and no French.

Sounds just like AA in 1920!

We have done this language thing to death in this thread and the language thread, let's not take off in another circle posting the same quotes. Snore.

 

[ChatNoir]

No, there is no proof she betrayed them in fact it's been disproven.

It has? Then you better post where and when.

You call her a liar every time you refuse to accept her denial of AA as legitimate.

Really? So my inquiries automatically makes her a liar? I think we all know who the liar is!

Um, no. AN knew 'a few words',

No, my dear. According to Buxhoeveden, AA was the one who knew a few words with a heavy Russian accent. Or are you calling her a liar?

AA used German as her main functional language. The real AN would never have chosen a language she knew very few words of over three she knew very well.

I don't think anybody could call AA's German functional until she had stayed in Germany many years. FS, on the other hand, was a German native.

We'll never know just how good her coached English was in the late 20's, but even in her old age she preferred German and called her husband "Hans." People who met her in her later years said Manahan had to translate for her since, according to one, "German was her only functional language."

What we know from Rudnev and Conrad Wahl, was that she spoke English already in the early 20's. In America she would use German when she did not want others to hear what she was talking about. The same thing in Germany, she would use English for the same purpose. When Prince Frederick addressed him in German, she said to him: Stop speaking Prussian.

to death in this thread and the language thread, let's not take off in another circle posting the same quotes. Snore.

As long as you don't get it, I will continue repeating it.

 

[Menarue]

Ad nauseum Chat?

 

[maria-olivia]

Well said Menarue ...

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Even today, I have a cousin 47 years old who was conceived in an affair his mother had with the Krispy Kreme donut man while her husband was overseas with the Army, and he still doesn't know her husband isn't his father

​

Okay Annie 'fess up! You are making this up to give us some light relief aren't you?

 

[ChatNoir]

Gilliard confirmed AA's account that Anastasia had been given a regiment of her own during the war. Oddly AA did not recall the name of Anastasia's regiment. AA had in accurately stated that there had been a ceremony/parade/review when she was given her regiment and gave a few specific details indicating that she remembered the event well. Gilliard quotes Colonel Kolioubakine and and General Repiev who both served in the 148th regiment of infantry Kaspiiski and both stated that at the time that Anastasia was named Colonel in Chief to the regiment the regiment was already at the front. Colonel Kolioubakine alone was presented to Anastasia (Along with the Tsar and Empress) he also stated that monthly telegrams were sent to Anastasia updating her as to the regiments progress.

From Harriet Rathlef Keilmann:

"I believe I can clearly recollect that, on the day when I was first given command of my regiment, I myself took charge of the parade on horseback." (In a letter dated 26th January, 1926, Mr. Gilliard conmfirmed to me that what she said was perfectly true.)

There is no mentioning of the regiment being present, just some kind of ceremony. Of course, we can not verify what Gilliard wrote in his book, since all his records have been destroyed.

With regards to the photograph of the Empresses Car with the Swastika, Gillard did publish the photograph on it-though the swastika is on the hood and not the door and indeed it has been highlighted-He made two points about it.
1. Gilliard verified through Captain Schwabe that AA had infact seen the photograph in a series of photographs published by Russian Monarchist Supreme Council well before she declared this "memory" to Harriet von Rathlef Keilmann.

Actually, she declared it to Herluf Zahle.

2.AA stated clearly that it was the Empress's car that the Swastika was placed. It was not the Empress's car but in fact the Tsar's (the car had been a gift to the Tsar). The Empress herself preferred either Rolls Royce or a Renault. AA saw the photo in question which shows the Empress in the car and assumed it belonged to the Empress.

See the following:The Imperial Garage - alt.talk.royalty | Google Groups

Seems like all of the Tsar's cars had swastikas, a detail that eluded both Gilliard and Volkov.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

It has? Then you better post where and when.

The last time you asked this, I told you it had been posted many times, yes in this thread too, and I wasn't going to be baited again. I also asked you if you were playing games or had developed Alzheimer's since you ask it so many times and deny I ever mentioned it before.I feel the same way now. Look it up in some of the 100+ pages here which are mostly repeats of the same stuff anyway.

Really? So my inquiries automatically makes her a liar? I think we all know who the liar is!

Yes. You say Bux lied about AA's identity to cover the 'fact' that she was a 'traitor.' This is your excuse for the honest denial by a woman who knew the girls well.

No, my dear. According to Buxhoeveden, AA was the one who knew a few words with a heavy Russian accent. Or are you calling her a liar?

No, it was the real AN she was talking about and this was another reason she knew it wasn't her, because AA chose to speak German, even after Bux spoke to her in English!

I don't think anybody could call AA's German functional until she had stayed in Germany many years. FS, on the other hand, was a German native.

When Bux and Olga went to see AA, they both reported that she did not respond to their English, or Russian, yet she whispered questions to the nurses in German. If AA had known English or Russian, why did she do this? Answer: she didn't, she was FS and she didn't konw them.

What we know from Rudnev and Conrad Wahl, was that she spoke English already in the early 20's.

Dmitri Leuchtenberg said she knew no English until she was coached about the time of coming to Caste Seeon. This fits in with her not understanding it when visited in 1922.

In America she would use German when she did not want others to hear what she was talking about. The same thing in Germany, she would use English for the same purpose. When Prince Frederick addressed him in German, she said to him: Stop speaking Prussian.

Prussian? Sounds like the grudge of a Polish girl whose land and family titles were taken by the Prussians (like FS!)

As long as you don't get it, I will continue repeating it.

YOU are the one who refuses to 'get it' and I won't bore everyone else with the quotes again. they're all in this thread and on my site.