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  #1341  
Old 07-17-2008, 06:55 PM
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How do we know they were memories or learned memories. I don't know if Anna was Franziska, but she, certainly, wasn't Anastasia.
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  #1342  
Old 07-17-2008, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
How do we know they were memories or learned memories. I don't know if Anna was Franziska, but she, certainly, wasn't Anastasia.
I think the possibility is there that she could have picked up information along the way although it seems rather unrealistic considering her bad memory. She would tell a person something or other, and then weeks later she would wonder how the same person knew such details, totally having forgotten that she told him/her. And how could she name people at the court from photos? The faces of the IF she could certainly have learned from magazines and books, but ladies in waiting, tutors, Alexei's playmates? (Of course, there were not many of them.) And how could she recognize the rooms in the Livadia palace just from photos? How did she know about Conrad? Tiucheva? Obolensky? How did she know the name of the special servant for the children? How did she know about the Empress scratching the initials and dates on a certain window at the Alexandria? The list goes on and on.
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  #1343  
Old 07-17-2008, 08:52 PM
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You never considered someone from the very inner circle, even a very initimate servant or aide or someone like that could teach someone things they would have to know. When I was in the Winter Palace, I asked to see the Malachite Room, the tour guide wanted to know how I knew about this, this was back in the old Soviet Union days, books, I said. But when she relented and took us there, it was just as I had seen it, in the books. I could pick out dozens of things and she was amazed. People who had the right information could teach anything. And who said she had a bad memeory. That might have been a ruse, too. This wasn't just a silly game to intrigue, to fool a bunch of people for fun, there was a bigger end to this plot. Probably, money, perhaps, even power.
  #1344  
Old 07-17-2008, 09:12 PM
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The problem is that there were very few books available at the time AA told her memories. And during the two years in Dalldorf, she received no visitors. The years up to 1926 she spent mostly in hospitals and sanatoria without books and visitors. Every doctor who examined her, testified to the big gaps in her memory, but as her physical health got better, her memory also improved. As she said to Dr. Eitel: "I feel I am on the way to becoming a normal person again." At one time, she could not count past ten or tell time; she could not even remember on which date Christmas fell. When playing solitaire, she could not distinguish between certain cards, and at Seeon, she sometimes had a problem finding her way back to her room. Not a good candidate to tell stories to.
  #1345  
Old 07-17-2008, 09:29 PM
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But during that time she couldn't change her DNA.
  #1346  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Chat himself gave me the date of March 9. March 12 was the day the Weimar gov't fell in a coup, causing turmoil in the city. As I said before, being reported missing weeks later is not uncommon and does not mean AA was not FS. (especiall since the DNA matched)
So, there is a Big IF about the date March 9 and the notification that FS had failed to appear so the Wingenders could receive their money from the state which paid for FS's room and board.

Now, about March 12 and the rebellion:


The Kapp Putsch lasted from the early mornings hours 12/13 March to the 17th.. Yes, some of the police were involved. Yes police were going around with field guns and armored cars. There was a general strike. One example was that someone on patrol offered the strikers cigarettes, they all had a good smoke and all became quiet, again. Other strikers were subjected to bullets being fired in the air over their heads and they dispersed. Some strikers were taken somewhere and beaten. The strikes were quickly over. And Ebert-Bauer's regime was restored in Berlin. A few published articles were issued. Police were ordered to renew their oaths of allegiance. The Weimer Republic continued it's course in history to 1933 and did not cease to be because of Kapp's Putsch as AWF voiced earlier.

What does any of this have to do with FS, because if she was AA, she was already in Dalldorf Asylum by March?

Are you referring to the fact that no one was interested in AA's case or a missing FS at this time during the putsch? Well, we've gone over this before and it has been explained that the Berlin police had not lost interest. They sent AA's photo to all the local hosptials, asylums and police stations within the Weimer Republic. At that time the Posan area was part of this area. When they were contacted by people with missing family members who's description matched that of AA's, they used their own cash to bring family members to Berlin to see if AA was the person missing. One of the girls missing was from the same area as FS who resembled AA. They even fingerprinted AA and check their files. At this time Germany had the best police department in Europe and were thrilled with anything new. Course this was only the beginning of the fingerprint files. They fingerprinted all patients in all the asylums, which probably included AA during one of her stays in one or two instituions before Feb of 1920. One of the Berlin policeman Ernst Gennat is often mention in detective and spy books written in the 1920s to 1940s. And, remember, for a time AA lived with the policman Inspector Grunberg, who was greatly interested in AA. So, I'm not quite sure why AWF believes the Berlin police were not interested and were just locked into a putsch which last 5 days.

Or, are we back to the birthday card FS sent Felix in which she apologized for her tardiness because her brother Felix's birthday was on the 17th of Feb. He received the card about a week later or was it a little more than a week? Chat? Anyway, when we talked about this before, I dug into the history of the post office history of the Weimer Republic. Evidently, they delivered mail the same day if the mail was to reach someone in Berlin. It took one day to reach people outside of Berlin. There were several times that mail was delayed two days during certain political unrest. Their post office dept. was really something. If this was true and FS mailed the birthday card then she did so around the 22nd or 23 of Feb, some five days after it is said that FS jumped into the canal on the 17th of Feb, her brother's birthday.... If FS was AA, maybe she snuck away from the custody of the hospital, bought a card and sent it. I guess it's possible, although highly unlikely. Or, her card somehow was lost and found and then delivered. This was out of character for the postal service.

Felix had the birthday card for sometime but in time, it was misplaced and can no longer be used as evidence, only his memory of it which he has mentioned.

As a side note, the postal service did stamp envelopes and postcards and there would have been one on Felix's envelope/postcard.

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  #1347  
Old 07-17-2008, 10:45 PM
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Felix told Dr. Völler that the card arrived between 8 and 12 days late. He was sure it came from Berlin.
  #1348  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
The problem is that there were very few books available at the time AA told her memories.
Actually there were quite a few.

"Last Days of the Romanovs", the complete report on their murders, was out in 1920.

Pierre Gilliard's "13 Years at the Russian Court" was out in 1921, as were the memoirs of Tatiana Botkin. (interesting note: in the 1921 book she barely mentions the Grand Duchesses and tells only of seeing them from afar, and meeting them in 1911, but later, after the AA case, she wrote another book claiming to have been great friends with Anastasia)

Lili Dehn's book came out in 1922, so did the book about Ernie's trip.

Anna Vyrubova's book, "Memories of the Russian Court", was published in 1923.

Sophie Bux. wrote 2 books in the 20's, one about the family, one about her experiences trying to escape from Russia.

Clara P. had all those books and magazines on the family.
  #1349  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
What does any of this have to do with FS, because if she was AA, she was already in Dalldorf Asylum by March?
Because of the turmoil of the coup, it's not surprising that a case of one missing girl fell through the cracks in the early days of the investigation. I had always heard AA supporters say, why didn't they make the connection between the lost FS and the Unknown one in the asylum? Once I found out about the coup attempt, I had another 'OOoohhhh!' moment.

Quote:
So, I'm not quite sure why AWF believes the Berlin police were not interested and were just locked into a putsch which last 5 days.
Postwar Berlin was not the most stable of places. Surely FS was not the only missing person. The coup lasted those four days, but the strikes that followed, and the hyperinflation and unrest that lasted several years, made things difficult. It wasn't until the monetary system was put on the us gold standard in 1924 that you get the 'golden age' of the Weimar, which of course ended with the depression and eventually Hitler. My point is, the Berlin police drppped the ball on the AA case, they didn't have the time, money or personal interest in it, but Ernie did, and that's why his detectives easily discovered AA to be FS. Really, instead of being villanized by AA supporters, the guy was a super sleuth and should be commended for his fine detective work, since DNA has proven him correct (99.9%) The fact that he was right and the police didn't get the job done proves this. Don't forget that the Berlin police did eventually sign off on Darmstadt's ID of AA as FS.

Quote:
If FS was AA, maybe she snuck away from the custody of the hospital, bought a card and sent it. I guess it's possible, although highly unlikely. Or, her card somehow was lost and found and then delivered. This was out of character for the postal service.

Felix had the birthday card for sometime but in time, it was misplaced and can no longer be used as evidence, only his memory of it which he has mentioned.



AGRBear
Oh come now, bear, do you really believe that your guesses of mail delivery dates disqualify AA from being FS? First we don't even know if the card existed, it was only mentioned, never seen. Second, you can never be sure of the exact date it was mailed or arrived, and guesses and estimates do not count. That's a very weak case!

And BTW the coup broke out on the early morning of the 13th, meaning the mail of the 12th was gone the morning before. We don't know if the mail ran the 13th or not. There was likely much confusion in the city streets. We can also never prove the time or dependability of the mail delivery to other places. It wasn't as fast or efficient as it is today, and the problems in the country surely slowed it further.
  #1350  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Actually there were quite a few.
Buxhoeveden's books were published in 1928. How many of these books were translated to German, and when? And what books and magazines did Clara Peuthert have? Also, have you read Tatiana Botkin's book? I thought it was only published in Russian.
  #1351  
Old 07-18-2008, 01:48 AM
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The funny thing is that Knopf did not "unmask" AA until 1927, long after Germany's "golden age" had started and the Berlin Police apparently was back in fine form again. Why did Uncle Ernie wait 5 years?
  #1352  
Old 07-18-2008, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
But during that time she couldn't change her DNA.
Bad luck for her and for her "believers".
  #1353  
Old 07-18-2008, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Buxhoeveden's books were published in 1928. How many of these books were translated to German, and when? And what books and magazines did Clara Peuthert have? Also, have you read Tatiana Botkin's book? I thought it was only published in Russian.
I was told this by Belochka (you know who she is) who is fluent in Russian. Also a French girl who had read both told me.

If they weren't in German, I'm sure one of her supporters could have told her, they knew several languages. We don't know exxactly what Clara P. had but we do know she had several on the Russian royals, she must have had a thing for them (as we all do)

Well apparently in those 7 years a lot more people disappeared, crimes were committed and the cops had other and better things to do and had to spread themselves to many other cases. Ernie didn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
The funny thing is that Knopf did not "unmask" AA until 1927, long after Germany's "golden age" had started and the Berlin Police apparently was back in fine form again. Why did Uncle Ernie wait 5 years?
Until then, she was just another quack claimant, it wasn't until she took up with Gleb and her case and fame started to escalate and head toward court and try to get money that she had to be stopped. Nobody's going to take some nut with Tb in a bed to court. Ernie knew she wasn't AN and didn't want his dead niece's name to be stolen, and also she didn't deserve money since she was only a fake.
  #1354  
Old 07-18-2008, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna View Post
Are you saying he lied in his book and falsified information? How do you know this? What are your sources?
Read the post again - his book is my source. In it he says that Anastasia didn't know German. Their schoolbooks prove they had studied it seriously.
  #1355  
Old 07-18-2008, 08:50 AM
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I am sorry but I really think that whether GD Anastasia knew German, or had lessons or not, doesn´t matter that much, it is another thing to know if she was fluent, or could converse in that language and would choose it above other languages that there is no controversy about,as we know she knew them well.
I learnt the piano, on my mother´s insistence, for many years, even took the first Conservatorium exams...I can´t even read a note of music now. I think the problem is that I was never very interested in it, water off a duck´s back. Perhaps her German lessons were more of a chore than a pleasure!
  #1356  
Old 07-18-2008, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
I am sorry but I really think that whether GD Anastasia knew German, or had lessons or not, doesn´t matter that much, it is another thing to know if she was fluent, or could converse in that language and would choose it above other languages that there is no controversy about,as we know she knew them well.
I learnt the piano, on my mother´s insistence, for many years, even took the first Conservatorium exams...I can´t even read a note of music now. I think the problem is that I was never very interested in it, water off a duck´s back. Perhaps her German lessons were more of a chore than a pleasure!

She chose it above other languages because she lived in Germany for most of the period from 1920 to the late 1960s - what else should she have spoken there?
  #1357  
Old 07-18-2008, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Felix told Dr. Völler that the card arrived between 8 and 12 days late. He was sure it came from Berlin.


This means he would have received it by the end of February at the latest – almost two weeks before the coup. Therefore the coup and its alleged effect on the post has absolutely no relevance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Postwar Berlin was not the most stable of places. Surely FS was not the only missing person. The coup lasted those four days, but the strikes that followed, and the hyperinflation and unrest that lasted several years, made things difficult. It wasn't until the monetary system was put on the us gold standard in 1924 that you get the 'golden age' of the Weimar, which of course ended with the depression and eventually Hitler. My point is, the Berlin police drppped the ball on the AA case, they didn't have the time, money or personal interest in it, but Ernie did, and that's why his detectives easily discovered AA to be FS. Really, instead of being villanized by AA supporters, the guy was a super sleuth and should be commended for his fine detective work, since DNA has proven him correct (99.9%) The fact that he was right and the police didn't get the job done proves this. Don't forget that the Berlin police did eventually sign off on Darmstadt's ID of AA as FS. .


I really don’t think that the hyperinflation of the early 1920s would have affected the efficiency of the Berlin police (they were renowned for it) - - their salaries perhaps! And I think you’ll find that what the Berlin police actually said was that the ID of AA as FS was all handled from Darmstadt, not Berlin and they had nothing to do with it. I will check the source for this at the weekend but it is in PK’s book. After all, if they confirmed it, why did they let her have papers under the name of Anastasia Tschaikovsky?
  #1358  
Old 07-18-2008, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Actually there were quite a few.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post

"Last Days of the Romanovs", the complete report on their murders, was out in 1920.

Pierre Gilliard's "13 Years at the Russian Court" was out in 1921, as were the memoirs of Tatiana Botkin. (interesting note: in the 1921 book she barely mentions the Grand Duchesses and tells only of seeing them from afar, and meeting them in 1911, but later, after the AA case, she wrote another book claiming to have been great friends with Anastasia)

Lili Dehn's book came out in 1922, so did the book about Ernie's trip.

Anna Vyrubova's book, "Memories of the Russian Court", was published in 1923.

Sophie Bux. wrote 2 books in the 20's, one about the family, one about her experiences trying to escape from Russia.

Clara P. had all those books and magazines on the family.
Are the dates you give when they were published in Germany? For example, Gilliard was published in English by Hutchinson of London in 1921, in French by Payot & Cie, Paris, 1922. ) And how do you know Clara had copies of all of these books?
  #1359  
Old 07-18-2008, 10:27 AM
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She chose it above other languages because she lived in Germany for most of the period from 1920 to the late 1960s - what else should she have spoken there?
We are talking about GD Anastasia here, her DNA shows that she didn´t live in Germany, unfortunately it showed she died with the rest of her family.
Well either AA or SF may have lived in Germany for those years but they really don´t interest me. I thought we were talking about whether GDA spoke German.
  #1360  
Old 07-18-2008, 12:18 PM
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This sad story is now milked ad nauseam.To still see people talk in disbelief,ignorance even,on the findings and thus the end of a mystery,is
an insult to the memory of those slaughtered at Ekaterinenburg.

From Moscow:
Russia says remains of last czar's son identified - Science - MSNBC.com
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