The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > The Imperial Family of Russia

Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1141  
Old 07-10-2008, 03:38 PM
Anna was Franziska's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Richmond, United States
Posts: 823
[quote=ChatNoir;797705]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post

She would still have remembered a toe that bent over in the middle and formed a bunion.
Perhaps she didn't have 'bunions' until she stood all that time on her feet at the factories where she worked.

Quote:
The shoe size was given by FS's mother to Frau Rathlef Keilmann's private detective.
I still remember this being told elsewhere, maybe even by you, as a stepmother who never knew her well, do you have a passage from the book? Why do you trust her PI and think Ernie's was crooked?

But also, shoe size proves nothing because people get it wrong and don't always know and feet change size and shoes run large or small. The shoes are silly beside the DNA.

Quote:
We won't really know until her birth certificate is found.
Well stop hiding it!

No really it may never have existed, not all births are recorded (My Aunt Mae, born in 1924 in North Carolina, is a perfect example, the only sibling of 12 not to have one) but that doesn't mean at all she's not family. Again, it's an insult to the scientists involved to think they'd be too stupid to check it out.
__________________

__________________
  #1142  
Old 07-10-2008, 03:55 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 795
[quote=Anna was Franziska;797716]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post

Perhaps she didn't have 'bunions' until she stood all that time on her feet at the factories where she worked.
According to some of the medical reports it was so pronounced it had to have been present from birth.

Quote:
I still remember this being told elsewhere, maybe even by you, as a stepmother who never knew her well, do you have a passage from the book? Why do you trust her PI and think Ernie's was crooked?
I am at work (!) without my books. I have found no inconsistensies in Frau Rathlef Keilmann's detective's work, but a lot in Martin Knopf's.

Quote:
But also, shoe size proves nothing because people get it wrong and don't always know and feet change size and shoes run large or small. The shoes are silly beside the DNA.
Shoe size does not make or break the case, but it is there, no matter how much you try to downplay it.

Quote:
No really it may never have existed, not all births are recorded (My Aunt Mae, born in 1924 in North Carolina, is a perfect example, the only sibling of 12 not to have one) but that doesn't mean at all she's not family. Again, it's an insult to the scientists involved to think they'd be too stupid to check it out.
I think it was filmmaker Knott who tracked down Carl Maucher.
__________________

__________________
  #1143  
Old 07-10-2008, 04:06 PM
Anna was Franziska's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Richmond, United States
Posts: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I've been saying for a while that talking to the Anna Anderson apologists is like dealing with creationists, and I see that quote-mining is another similarity.
I've been frustrated, in real life even, by people who insist the world is only 6,000 years old and that any scientific data proving things older is either wrong or 'the devil making you think that.' I heard one man rant on about how carbon dating was 'nothing' and didn't mean anything and if you believed in it you were going to hell. I also saw a mother tell a crying child in a public library that he couldn't check out a book on dinosaurs because the book 'lied' and about the Bible and was therefore evil. Even things carbon dated in the Holy Land are denied to be more than 6,000 by these people. Are they really that backward and uninformed or are they really convinced hell awaits if they believe otherwise? The strange thing is I don't think the Bible ever even says anything about 6,000 years, it's just an estimate somebody came up with allegedly tracing back the 'begats' and estimating the generations.


Quote:
You know, throughout this discussion, you've been awfully fond of stating things as hard fact that aren't.
Yes very true, and very frustrating

Quote:
I just don't like the implication of incompetence, dishonesty, or both on the part of the scientists, especially since there's no evidence for it.
It's awful the allegations and insinuations brought against the scientists, as well as Martha Jefferson Hospital, the Queen, and now even Putin, with NO evidence at all other than the wishful thinking to hold out hope AA could still be AN. It's really wrong. Ironically, I have been repeatedly accused of 'slandering' Gleb Botkin for suggesting he helped her with her 'memories' by these same people.
__________________
  #1144  
Old 07-10-2008, 05:53 PM
AGRBear's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, United States
Posts: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
...[in part]...
All this is useless speculation, there is no proof Maucher is not related to FS, and the scientists were sure of this and used him for a sample donor.
Once, again, you are making incorrect assumptions. Here is what Dr. Ginther wrote to Curious One.

>>You also asked about the relationship of Gertrude to Margarete Ellerick. I never wanted to know any more than necessary about any sample because I feared that knowledge might prejudice my result. I do not remember being told anything about Margareteís family.

I hope this answers your questions.<<

AGRBear
__________________
"Truth ever lovely-- since the world began.
The foe of tyrants, and the friend of man."
  #1145  
Old 07-10-2008, 06:31 PM
Anna was Franziska's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Richmond, United States
Posts: 823
Dr. Ginter was not one of the scientists hired or enlisted to do the testing. What he did was an additional test at another time. Did anyone ever ask Gill, Stoneking or Melton?

The biggest question remains is, IF HE'S NOT RELATED WHY DID HIS DNA MATCH? What point do you mean to make here? Please explain.
__________________
  #1146  
Old 07-10-2008, 07:30 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
It's awful the allegations and insinuations brought against the scientists, as well as Martha Jefferson Hospital, the Queen, and now even Putin, with NO evidence at all other than the wishful thinking to hold out hope AA could still be AN. It's really wrong. Ironically, I have been repeatedly accused of 'slandering' Gleb Botkin for suggesting he helped her with her 'memories' by these same people.
Such noble words coming from someone who calls Professor Otto Reche "a discredited Nazi".
__________________
  #1147  
Old 07-10-2008, 07:45 PM
Anna was Franziska's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Richmond, United States
Posts: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Such noble words coming from someone who calls Professor Otto Reche "a discredited Nazi".
Well, he was a Nazi and he was discredited by his peers...

This is a commentary by someone who did extensive research on Reche and his work:
(I must) point out the scientific fallacies upon which your claims and evidence are based. Otto Reche is a good example of this - here we have a nazi by choice and inclination, whose work was so bad that persons such as Robert Procter, Hermann Graml, Edith Zerbin- Rudin, Stephen Gould and Robert Leakey have discredited it. I explained why in more than one post, as I explained why anthromorphic photo comparison is a subjective science with a narrow degree of scientific certainty, no matter how many graphs, charts and measurements he might have had. It doesn't matter how many graphs and measurements he had, if the foundation has been taken away, does it? Advances in the science of mtdna recovery alone, has proven that his foundational base, his sampling of "long headed Europeans" is false. among other factors such as age, the His photographic "proof" is also false - photo comparison cannot account for the thickness of muscle, fat, skin or bone,among other factors such as age,mechanics of photography and printing and other variables involved in photographic comparison.

There were several of these Nazi anthropologists who were revered at the time, but now criticized. On the history channel they tell of a team of them who traveled to Tibet in the 1930's and 'proved' by facial life masks that the Tibetians were really descendants of aryan Germans from the Rhine Valley. This was one of Hitler's pet theories, however, it is now known to be false. So these Nazis were not as respectable, reliable and accurate as Anderson supporters will have you believe. Therefore, doubt is cast on their 'identification' of Anna Anderson being an 'identical twin' of Anastasia.
__________________
  #1148  
Old 07-10-2008, 08:23 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Well, he was a Nazi and he was discredited by his peers...

This is a commentary by someone who did extensive research on Reche and his work:
(I must) point out the scientific fallacies upon which your claims and evidence are based. Otto Reche is a good example of this - here we have a nazi by choice and inclination, whose work was so bad that persons such as Robert Procter, Hermann Graml, Edith Zerbin- Rudin, Stephen Gould and Robert Leakey have discredited it. I explained why in more than one post, as I explained why anthromorphic photo comparison is a subjective science with a narrow degree of scientific certainty, no matter how many graphs, charts and measurements he might have had. It doesn't matter how many graphs and measurements he had, if the foundation has been taken away, does it? Advances in the science of mtdna recovery alone, has proven that his foundational base, his sampling of "long headed Europeans" is false. among other factors such as age, the His photographic "proof" is also false - photo comparison cannot account for the thickness of muscle, fat, skin or bone,among other factors such as age,mechanics of photography and printing and other variables involved in photographic comparison.

There were several of these Nazi anthropologists who were revered at the time, but now criticized. On the history channel they tell of a team of them who traveled to Tibet in the 1930's and 'proved' by facial life masks that the Tibetians were really descendants of aryan Germans from the Rhine Valley. This was one of Hitler's pet theories, however, it is now known to be false. So these Nazis were not as respectable, reliable and accurate as Anderson supporters will have you believe. Therefore, doubt is cast on their 'identification' of Anna Anderson being an 'identical twin' of Anastasia.
Wouldn't it be awfully nice if you could name your sources.
__________________
  #1149  
Old 07-10-2008, 08:43 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,442
Otto Reche was a Nazi and promolgated the theory that Blood Types were A, B and O and each was assigned to Europeans, Asians or Native Americans, but was mongrelized due to intermarriage. He was a great promoter of the Ayran race nonsense. He was arrested by the Americans after the war and spent 16 months in prison. If you would like to see some of his collegues writings about him, try When Medicine went Mad: BioEthics and the Holocaust by Arthur Caplan or From Racism to Genocide: Anthropology of the Third Reich, by Gretchen Schafft. Sorry, Reche represented a very dark side of Germany.
__________________
  #1150  
Old 07-10-2008, 08:56 PM
AGRBear's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, United States
Posts: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Dr. Ginter was not one of the scientists hired or enlisted to do the testing. What he did was an additional test at another time. ...[in part]...
The two samples were sent by the court to two different labs. One was Dr. Gill and the other was Dr. King of Berkeley who turned the testing over to Dr. Ginther, who did the same testing as Dr. Gill. Because Dr. Gill completed his testing first and published what he found first, Dr. King never published Dr. Ginther's results. She had turned her attention to breast cancer and lost interest in the tests Ginther had done. Later, Ginther acquired permission from Dr. King and continued other tests involving AA, Maucher, Margaret, etc. ....

Massie's book, The Final Chapter goes into more detail about the other tests. Dr. Ginther letter about all of this is on my forum, which you have read, since we've talked about this on AP and other forums. I assume you've forgotten these details.

I'm not near my book at the moment but will return with the page and the quote when I have a moment to do so.

AGRBear
__________________
"Truth ever lovely-- since the world began.
The foe of tyrants, and the friend of man."
  #1151  
Old 07-10-2008, 09:20 PM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
The two samples were sent by the court to two different labs. One was Dr. Gill and the other was Dr. King of Berkeley who turned the testing over to Dr. Ginther, who did the same testing as Dr. Gill. Because Dr. Gill completed his testing first and published what he found first, Dr. King never published Dr. Ginther's results. She had turned her attention to breast cancer and lost interest in the tests Ginther had done. Later, Ginther acquired permission from Dr. King and continued other tests involving AA, Maucher, Margaret, etc. ....

Massie's book, The Final Chapter goes into more detail about the other tests. Dr. Ginther letter about all of this is on my forum, which you have read, since we've talked about this on AP and other forums. I assume you've forgotten these details.

I'm not near my book at the moment but will return with the page and the quote when I have a moment to do so.

AGRBear
Where did Dr King say this?
__________________
  #1152  
Old 07-11-2008, 12:18 AM
AGRBear's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, United States
Posts: 354
I didn't quote Dr. King. So, I'm not sure what you're asking me, Elspeth.

AGRBear
__________________
"Truth ever lovely-- since the world began.
The foe of tyrants, and the friend of man."
  #1153  
Old 07-11-2008, 12:27 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 795
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Otto Reche was a Nazi and promolgated the theory that Blood Types were A, B and O and each was assigned to Europeans, Asians or Native Americans, but was mongrelized due to intermarriage. He was a great promoter of the Ayran race nonsense. He was arrested by the Americans after the war and spent 16 months in prison. If you would like to see some of his collegues writings about him, try When Medicine went Mad: BioEthics and the Holocaust by Arthur Caplan or From Racism to Genocide: Anthropology of the Third Reich, by Gretchen Schafft. Sorry, Reche represented a very dark side of Germany.
And still he was chosen by the Hamburg court as their anthropological expert.
__________________
  #1154  
Old 07-11-2008, 12:45 AM
AGRBear's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, United States
Posts: 354
Found one of my old posts on AP which gives us the page in Massie's book where he talks about Ginther and Remy.

>>When looking for information, I had to read a few pages of Massie's THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER.

In it, Massie tells us that Remy was looking for possible samples that would produce DNA p. 234:

Remy found a Professor Stefan Sadkuhler, who is is said, examined AA on 6 June 1951. He had drawn blood to see if AA was a carrier of hemophila... Sadkuhler gave Remy the slide which Remy broke in half. He sent one piece to Professor Herrmann and the other to Dr. Ginther. Apparently Herrmann was able to get some DNA and sent it to Ginther. And this is what Massie wrote and I quote:
"Ginther found that this DNA did not match the Hessian profile (that is, the doner of the blood was not related to Empress Alexandra), nor did it match the Schanzkowski profile as dervied from Margareth Ellerick." Then Massie talks about possible contamination, etc. etc..<<

Margareth Ellerick was Gertrude's daughter.

Within a few pages surrounding p. 234, Massie talks about Drs. King's and Ginther's role in all of this. Perhaps this is what you wanted to know Elspeth.
__________________
"Truth ever lovely-- since the world began.
The foe of tyrants, and the friend of man."
  #1155  
Old 07-11-2008, 01:27 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
I didn't quote Dr. King. So, I'm not sure what you're asking me, Elspeth.

AGRBear
I'm asking how you know that the King-Ginther work wasn't published because of the prior publication of the Gill work. As opposed to not being published for some other reason.
__________________
  #1156  
Old 07-11-2008, 01:30 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ***, United States
Posts: 16,897
Quote:
Originally Posted by AGRBear View Post
Found one of my old posts on AP which gives us the page in Massie's book where he talks about Ginther and Remy.

>>When looking for information, I had to read a few pages of Massie's THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER.

In it, Massie tells us that Remy was looking for possible samples that would produce DNA p. 234:

Remy found a Professor Stefan Sadkuhler, who is is said, examined AA on 6 June 1951. He had drawn blood to see if AA was a carrier of hemophila... Sadkuhler gave Remy the slide which Remy broke in half. He sent one piece to Professor Herrmann and the other to Dr. Ginther. Apparently Herrmann was able to get some DNA and sent it to Ginther. And this is what Massie wrote and I quote:
"Ginther found that this DNA did not match the Hessian profile (that is, the doner of the blood was not related to Empress Alexandra), nor did it match the Schanzkowski profile as dervied from Margareth Ellerick." Then Massie talks about possible contamination, etc. etc..<<

Margareth Ellerick was Gertrude's daughter.

Within a few pages surrounding p. 234, Massie talks about Drs. King's and Ginther's role in all of this. Perhaps this is what you wanted to know Elspeth.
He broke the slide in half? This wasn't a scientist working in a clean-room, right? This was a journalist or something? Lord, no wonder that sample was contaminated beyond repair.
__________________
  #1157  
Old 07-11-2008, 08:07 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
It's a fact he signed it, this does not automatically make what he said in it a fact. The fact that he signed it is evidence for consideration with everything else on both sides.

No a brother wouldn't know all, and probably had not seen his sister's bare arms and legs(or even feet) since they were children playing in the creek.
I don't think there was a creek in Borowihlas ...

(Sorry not sure of the spelling!)
__________________
  #1158  
Old 07-11-2008, 08:13 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 101
[quote=Anna was Franziska;797716]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post



No really it may never have existed, not all births are recorded (My Aunt Mae, born in 1924 in North Carolina, is a perfect example, the only sibling of 12 not to have one) but that doesn't mean at all she's not family. .
I find this interesting? Wasn't it a legal requirement? In the UK you've had a legal requirement to register your child's birth since about 1850 with the penalty of a fine if you didn't.

Or does it depend on the state?
__________________
  #1159  
Old 07-11-2008, 08:17 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Well, he was a Nazi and he was discredited by his peers...

This is a commentary by someone who did extensive research on Reche and his work:
(.

Who is the someone and why did they do extensive research - is it another anthropologist?
__________________
  #1160  
Old 07-11-2008, 08:50 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Also, FS was NOT working alone in this area. There were other workers around her and the man who died. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
While we may assume so we really don't know for sure. .
Itís a munitions factory, in the middle of a war. I donít think we are ďassumingĒ when we say that they would not have been the only two people there. It would have been something like this -

http://firstworldwar.com/photos/grap...onsfact_01.jpg

picture taken from
GWS - The Great War: The Standard History of the All Europe Conflict (volume four) edited by H. W. Wilson and J. A. Hammerton (Amalgamated Press, London 1915)
__________________

__________________
Closed Thread

Tags
anastasia, anna anderson, dr berenberg-gossler, ekaterinburg, franziska schanzkowska, grand duchess anastasia, pierre gilliard, prince michael romanov


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 5 (June 2006-Mar 2008) Danielle Current Events Archive 203 03-03-2008 11:55 PM
Grand Duke Henri & Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Current Events 4 (February-June 2006) Alexandria Current Events Archive 196 06-04-2006 02:14 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta sofia jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympic games ottoman palace pom president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince frederik prince laurent prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marie princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia spain state visit wedding william winter olympics 2014


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:21 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]