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  #1021  
Old 07-08-2008, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
That's why she needed her coaches and svengalis and info-feeders around her, and why she didn't want to go anywhere without them.
And who were these coaches and svengalis and info-feeders?
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  #1022  
Old 07-08-2008, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Yes, in Tsarskoe Selo.
You forget the real AN wouldn't have been so stupid as to mistake a comma for an apostrophe. She was copying it and had to have something to copy.
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  #1023  
Old 07-08-2008, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
You forget the real AN wouldn't have been so stupid as to mistake a comma for an apostrophe. She was copying it and had to have something to copy.
The real AN was not exactly a stellar student.....
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  #1024  
Old 07-08-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I can't read on I'm not at the library anymore. Are you claiming Prince Frederick quoted Irene's husband? Did Irene ever comment for herself if any of it was right? If all we have is an interview that doesn't prove she really said it.
No, not Prince Frederick. Prince Oscar of Prussia, the Kaiser's son, reported to Lillian Zahle that the whole affair had upset Irene "so terribly" that her husband, Prince Henry, had forbidden Anastasia as a topic of conversation in the house.
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  #1025  
Old 07-08-2008, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
No, not Prince Frederick. Prince Oscar of Prussia, the Kaiser's son, reported to Lillian Zahle that the whole affair had upset Irene "so terribly" that her husband, Prince Henry, had forbidden Anastasia as a topic of conversation in the house.
So we have a he said that he said that she said, or was it a he told her that he said that she said? That's a pretty weak chain of custody you got there, Chat.
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  #1026  
Old 07-08-2008, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
So we have a he said that he said that she said, or was it a he told her that he said that she said? That's a pretty weak chain of custody you got there, Chat.
I agree, this is definitely what we can classify as hearsay. Another thing is the letter from an official at Hemmelmark who wrote baron von Kleist on behalf of Irene's husband, Prince Henry of Prussia:
His Royal Highness has requested me to inform you that he as well as his wife, after the latter's visit to your protegee, have come to the unshakable conviction that she is not a daughter of the Tsar, specifically not Grand Duchess Anastasia. Prince Henry considers the matter as it concerns himself and his wife as cleared up and finally settled and insists that you refrain from the further sending of letters or requests to himself or to the Princess. (Kurth)
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  #1027  
Old 07-08-2008, 06:51 PM
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On the other side, we all know that AA looked very much like AN
I don't want to start a picture posting war with Chat, but the likeness between AA and FS is much greater than that of AA and AN.

Anna Anderson: Exposed! | The Fact, Fiction and Fantasy surrounding the myth of "Anastasia"

The pics where she allegedly resembles AN are shadowy, have lighting angles, props or intentional poses that make her look more like AN, or hide the fact that she doesn't. In a clear, front face to face comparison, it's AA = FS.

L-R, Franziska Schanzkowska, Anna Anderson, Anastasia

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/fs-1.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra...ellofran-2.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafra...nastasia-2.jpg

You can see AA (center) looks exactly like Franziska (left- person DNA found her to be) and not like Anastasia (right)
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  #1028  
Old 07-08-2008, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
I agree, this is definitely what we can classify as hearsay. Another thing is the letter from an official at Hemmelmark who wrote baron von Kleist on behalf of Irene's husband, Prince Henry of Prussia:
His Royal Highness has requested me to inform you that he as well as his wife, after the latter's visit to your protegee, have come to the unshakable conviction that she is not a daughter of the Tsar, specifically not Grand Duchess Anastasia. Prince Henry considers the matter as it concerns himself and his wife as cleared up and finally settled and insists that you refrain from the further sending of letters or requests to himself or to the Princess. (Kurth)
That is just saying in a very kind way that they don't believe AA to be AN and don't want to be bothered about it anymore. There is no indication anyone is having second thoughts or wringing their hands, or getting so upset they don't want it mentioned in the house anymore. All that has been added, assumed and exaggerated by AA supporters and has no factual basis whatsoever.
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  #1029  
Old 07-08-2008, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I don't want to start a picture posting war with Chat, but the likeness between AA and FS is much greater than that of AA and AN.
Yes, in ONE single photo. That's why you use it again and again and do not dare use anything else.

Quote:
The pics where she allegedly resembles AN are shadowy, have lighting angles, props or intentional poses that make her look more like AN, or hide the fact that she doesn't. In a clear, front face to face comparison, it's AA = FS.
I always get such a good laugh when you try your best to explain away the obvious likeness between AA and AN that is there for the whole world to see.

Quote:
You can see AA (center) looks exactly like Franziska (left- person DNA found her to be) and not like Anastasia (right)
AA does not look exactly like FS, that is only wishful thinking. And you have never compared these two faces en profile. As Felix S. said: There is a resemblance from the front, but none from the side.
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  #1030  
Old 07-08-2008, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Yes, in ONE single photo. That's why you use it again and again and do not dare use anything else.
Well, if you look, I did post a link to my entire photographic comparisons page where many, many pictures are compared.

I am sorry for taking the thread off track, let's not let it turn into another typical discussion. We can take those comments back to the the other thread. Please let this one be just for people to express their views on the yes or no question.
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  #1031  
Old 07-08-2008, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
That is just saying in a very kind way that they don't believe AA to be AN and don't want to be bothered about it anymore. There is no indication anyone is having second thoughts or wringing their hands, or getting so upset they don't want it mentioned in the house anymore. All that has been added, assumed and exaggerated by AA supporters and has no factual basis whatsoever.
On the contrary, the letter shows total unwillingness to deal with it anymore, and unwillingness to be reminded of it. And Prince Frederick being Prince Sigismund's brother-in-law, I think he very well knew what was going on at Hemmelmark.
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  #1032  
Old 07-08-2008, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
On the contrary, the letter shows total unwillingness to deal with it anymore, and unwillingness to be reminded of it. And Prince Frederick being Prince Sigismund's brother-in-law, I think he very well knew what was going on at Hemmelmark.
Oh Chat, you are really reading something into it that's not there! They simply stated that after Irene's meeting with her, they were completely convinced that AA was not AN, and for Von Kliest to stop bothering them about the question since it had already been answered. If you imagine anything else, it's your own creation.
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  #1033  
Old 07-08-2008, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Oh Chat, you are really reading something into it that's not there! They simply stated that after Irene's meeting with her, they were completely convinced that AA was not AN, and for Von Kliest to stop bothering them about the question since it had already been answered. If you imagine anything else, it's your own creation.
Together with the statement of Prince Frederick and Prince Oscar, I think we can clearly see that the subject was not welcome at Hemmelmark.
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  #1034  
Old 07-08-2008, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Together with the statement of Prince Frederick and Prince Oscar, I think we can clearly see that the subject was not welcome at Hemmelmark.
It's not welcome because they have already stated that AA was not AN, but Von Kliest continued to bother them about it.

Look:

His Royal Highness has requested me to inform you that he as well as his wife, after the latter's visit to your protegee, have come to the unshakable conviction that she is not a daughter of the Tsar, specifically not Grand Duchess Anastasia. Prince Henry considers the matter as it concerns himself and his wife as cleared up and finally settled and insists that you refrain from the further sending of letters or requests to himself or to the Princess.

The ONLY thing this is saying is that Irene met AA, she found her not to be AN, and there was no need to continue to harass her about it. What did Von Kliest think, that if he kept bothering her she might meet AA again, and this time, better coached and prepared, she might pass the test? She said NO, that should have been the end of it, but apparently Von Kliest continued to contact them on the matter and they were tired of it!

There is nothing in this letter to indicate, as you must assume, that secretly Irene was upset, pacing the floor, wringing her hands that she had denied her poor 'niece' because of some covert conspiracy to keep her from getting any money. I'm sorry but that is ridiculous even the Days of Our Lives writers would have to reject it.
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  #1035  
Old 07-08-2008, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
It's not welcome because they have already stated that AA was not AN, but Von Kliest continued to bother them about it.

Look:

His Royal Highness has requested me to inform you that he as well as his wife, after the latter's visit to your protegee, have come to the unshakable conviction that she is not a daughter of the Tsar, specifically not Grand Duchess Anastasia. Prince Henry considers the matter as it concerns himself and his wife as cleared up and finally settled and insists that you refrain from the further sending of letters or requests to himself or to the Princess.

The ONLY thing this is saying is that Irene met AA, she found her not to be AN, and there was no need to continue to harass her about it. What did Von Kliest think, that if he kept bothering her she might meet AA again, and this time, better coached and prepared, she might pass the test? She said NO, that should have been the end of it, but apparently Von Kliest continued to contact them on the matter and they were tired of it!

There is nothing in this letter to indicate, as you must assume, that secretly Irene was upset, pacing the floor, wringing her hands that she had denied her poor 'niece' because of some covert conspiracy to keep her from getting any money. I'm sorry but that is ridiculous even the Days of Our Lives writers would have to reject it.
And as usual, you refuse to believe anybody that does not share your opinion, even without a shred of evidence that they may have not been telling the truth.
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  #1036  
Old 07-08-2008, 08:40 PM
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And as usual, you refuse to believe anybody that does not share your opinion,
Chat, the only person who doesn't share my opinion whom I am not believing here is YOU. There is NOTHING in that note to indicate what you are claiming! It is very clear, tactful and to the point, and the other things you assume are putting words in their mouths. And you accuse me of 'speculating!'

Quote:
even without a shred of evidence that they may have not been telling the truth.
There is not a 'shred of evidence that they may not be telling the truth!' Irene told the truth when she met AA. If you are saying they were not telling the truth in the letter, that is your own speculation.
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  #1037  
Old 07-08-2008, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Chat, the only person who doesn't share my opinion whom I am not believing here is YOU.
Well, pardon me for living.

Quote:
There is NOTHING in that note to indicate what you are claiming! It is very clear, tactful and to the point, and the other things you assume are putting words in their mouths. And you accuse me of 'speculating!'
I just prefer to believe the accounts of Prince Frederick and Prince Oscar since I have no reason whatsoever to doubt their words.

Quote:
There is not a 'shred of evidence that they may not be telling the truth!' Irene told the truth when she met AA. If you are saying they were not telling the truth in the letter, that is your own speculation.
If you read my post about Irene's lady in waiting, you will see that it does not quite correspond with Irene's version.
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  #1038  
Old 07-08-2008, 09:04 PM
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I just prefer to believe the accounts of Prince Frederick and Prince Oscar since I have no reason whatsoever to doubt their words.
Of course you'd choose to believe what is best for AA, but their comments are second and third hand, where Irene's denial is a signed statement and the letter you posted from her husband is also directly from them. So do you want their own words, or third hand gossip and assumptions?

Did you also ever consider that may be Irene was upset and didn't want it mentioned anymore but not because AA was AN and it bothered her, but because the whole thing had gotten on her nerves badly , and also that it brought back sad memories of her murdered sisters, nieces and nephew? Those are very good reasons not to want it mentioned anymore, and it does not at all mean she had any doubts about her denial of AA, that is pure speculation.

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If you read my post about Irene's lady in waiting, you will see that it does not quite correspond with Irene's version.
Where is it, and what is the source? My computer is too slow to go digging though all these threads, and since they never stay on topic I don't even know which one it's in.
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  #1039  
Old 07-08-2008, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Of course you'd choose to believe what is best for AA, but their comments are second and third hand, where Irene's denial is a signed statement and the letter you posted from her husband is also directly from them. So do you want their own words, or third hand gossip and assumptions?
The letter was actually not written by them, but by an official. Irene's signed statement has been burnt to a crisp.

Quote:
Did you also ever consider that may be Irene was upset and didn't want it mentioned anymore but not because AA was AN and it bothered her, but because the whole thing had gotten on her nerves badly , and also that it brought back sad memories of her murdered sisters, nieces and nephew? Those are very good reasons not to want it mentioned anymore, and it does not at all mean she had any doubts about her denial of AA, that is pure speculation.
No, it is not pure speculation, it is based on two statements and a letter. Plus another letter from Hemmelmark to Kleist demanding back all material relating to Princess Irene's involvement with AA.

Quote:
Where is it, and what is the source? My computer is too slow to go digging though all these threads, and since they never stay on topic I don't even know which one it's in.
(Footnote from Kurth's book): To say that there is some question about the extent of Irene's "firm conviction" that AA was not her niece is an understatement. Lori von Oertzen, the lady-in-waiting who accompanied Irene to Funkenmühle, later testified that Irene had practically begged AA to return with her to Hemmelmark, where, presumably, she hoped to resolve ther doubts (see testimony of Eleonore von Oertzen, September 16, 1958, Hamburg.) Later on in the decade Irene was deeply anxious to know what other family members thought about AA, and before her death in 1953, according to Grand Duke Andrew of Russia. she admitted that she "might have made a mistake and that it probably [was] Anastasia. (see letter of Grand Duke Andrew to Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, February 10, 1955, Hamburg.)
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Old 07-08-2008, 10:10 PM
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Your debacle has caught my eye and interest in that the parties involved persuade an accumulation of factual hearsay that has a bases in truth. The final result in so many speculations leave one both wondering and interested in actuality. I thought I read last night here a post by Menarue that either is not here or has been omitted. Maybe I'm crazy and I read the same argument between you in another topic but I think not. Your adamant rebuttals leave one inclined to find more about the intended discussion and it is another reason for visiting this forum. You impress me and it is nice to follow. Simply know that the truth is out there and I hope some resolution can be attained by camaraderie that strive to embolden and enlighten one to another so that we may live prosperously and in harmony. I find that here and I simply wanted to suggest that your portrayals are note worthy. Keep on deciphering this mystery that was at a time embedded with factual events. May the truth be told. Good day.
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