Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[AGRBear]

I respect your opinion.

Now, please respect the fact that I haven't made up my mind AA was FS.

Thanks.

AGRBear

 

[lucien]

If I only had the time!

AGRBear

Ah yes,AGRBear,nice to see you here tofcourse it is clear that it is my personal opinion that any discussion on who was who and why not is of no interest to me as the world is full of those thinking they are what they most certainly are not nor ever will be.Respect?Yes,but not for milking for milkings sake,it has no value and is pointless to a fault.But again,that is my opinion,and I will air that if I so please.Thank you.

 

[lucien]

What would be intresting would be a book that tried to explan how, why and with whom AA kept the worlds attention for so long. That would probably sell quite well.

I know some think that AA was AN but the world will only see and hear the DNA evidence which would suggest that she was not.

Chat I will get back to you and your post but have been busy working on a case at work and not much free time.

Why?Because people are people and easily believe anything but the truth and rather invent their own instead.
But hey,I'm sure there's one out there willing/smelling a fast buck and become an instant author.
I just wish they leave the entire Family alone and in peace.

 

[AGRBear]

Ah yes,AGRBear,nice to see you here tofcourse it is clear that it is my personal opinion that any discussion on who was who and why not is of no interest to me as the world is full of those thinking they are what they most certainly are not nor ever will be.Respect?Yes,but not for milking for milkings sake,it has no value and is pointless to a fault.But again,that is my opinion,and I will air that if I so please.Thank you.

Who is "milking for milking sake"?

"pointless to a fault". I'm sure there are many things which interest you that I don't find interesting but I'd never say it was "pointless" just because I wasn't interested. I bet I'd bore you if I talked about my grandchildren. We all have different interests or else it would be a very dull world.

Respect. Yes, I expect respect just as you should expect it from me.

Enough about us. Let's get back to the subject.

AGRBear

 

[Russophile]

Ah yes,AGRBear,nice to see you here tofcourse it is clear that it is my personal opinion that any discussion on who was who and why not is of no interest to me as the world is full of those thinking they are what they most certainly are not nor ever will be.Respect?Yes,but not for milking for milkings sake,it has no value and is pointless to a fault.But again,that is my opinion,and I will air that if I so please.Thank you.

I haven't seen "milking for milking's sake". The posts are quite informative and have facts to back them up. There is more and more information that Chat and AGRBear dig up and it's fascinating. I am wondering if someone will start a thread about the "fascination" that is almost occult of the Romanovs. There are people out there who choose to put them on alters and worship them.
That, IMO, is wrong. They were, after all, only human. . . .

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Read the post again - his book is my source. In it he says that Anastasia didn't know German. Their schoolbooks prove they had studied it seriously.

This still doesn't prove she knew or could speak it! Studying does not = proficiency, in languages or anything else.

Speaking of these 'schoolbooks', where were they, who saw them, and where are they now?

 

[ChatNoir]

This still doesn't prove she knew or could speak it! Studying does not = proficiency, in languages or anything else.

Nobody has claimed that AA was proficient in German, as a matter of fact, the Duke of Leuchtenberg stated that:
1. The German she speaks is so faulty that it must be clear to everyone that German cannot be her mother tongue.
2. She understands Russian excellently well, and could also speak Russian if she were not suffering from an inhibition.
3. She not only understands English, but also reads, writes, and speaks English.
4. She neither speaks nor understands a word of Polish.

Speaking of these 'schoolbooks', where were they, who saw them, and where are they now?

The school workbooks or the children of the Tsar were purchased by Ian Lilburn at an auction in London to be used as evidence in court.
From Peter Kurth: "Here, however, in black and white, were the lessons to prove that the Grand Duchess had studied German "in a serious manner," that her German lessons, in fact, bore fewer errors than her Russian lessons did."
The books are probably still in Germany.

 

[ChatNoir]

Yes it was all about the money!

What money?

Chat, so now you're back to Xenia again and not Gilliard? It's very insulting to Olga to say she was influenced by anyone, or that she'd go along with denying a real AN for money. Look at her life, she had no money! She was the 'black sheep' of the family with the 'wrong' marriage who ended up livving on a dirt farm and dying in a small apartment. There were hard feelings between her and Xenia over their mother's estate which lasted a lifetime. This woman was no one's pawn, and was not controlled by anyone, and certainly not 'paid off!'

I have no idea why you keep coming up with the notion that Olga was "paid off". Let's look back at Olga and what we know about her dealings with AA in the beginning:
In 1925, she wrote to Shura: "Please go at once to Berlin with M. Gilliard to see the poor lady. Suppose she really were the little one. Heaven alone knows if she is or not. It would be such a disgrace if she were living all alone in her misery and if all that is true.....
P.S.: If it really is she, please send me a wire and I will come to Berlin to meet you."
We do not know what Shura answered, but Olga did go to Berlin to see the unknown patient. After meeting AA, she said to Herluf Zahle and Bella Cohen: "My heart tells me the little one is Anastasia." (AA weighed at this time less than eighty pounds; she had no front teeth; she had just begun to recover from an illness that had nearly killed her, and she was still sedated with morphine.)
From Peter Kurth: "Soon Grand Duchess Olga called Harriet von Rathlef out onto the balcony. She pointed into the sickroom and said, "Our little one and Shura seem very happy to have found one another again." Frau von Rathlef waited. Olga continued: "If I had any money, I would do everything for the little one, but I haven't any and must earn my own pocket money by painting."
What was the Grand Duchess trying to say? Finally is came out: "I am so happy that I came, and I did it even though Mamma did not want me to. She was so angry with me when I came. And then my sister wired me from England saying that under no circumstances should I come to see the little one.""
"Major-General Alexander Spiridovitch, the former chief of the Tsar's secret police, saw a letter Olga had sent to her mother's secretary in Denmark immediately after her first visit to AA: "Poor Mamma, how am I supposed to tell her? It will kill her." (The Dowager Empress was convinced that the Tsar and his family were all still alive.)
Olga then sent cards and little presents to AA, among them Grand Duchess Marie's personal photo album. She would write among other things: "Don't be afraid. You are not alone now and we shall not abandon you." I am remembering the times we were together, when you stuffed me full of chocolates, tea and cocoa." "Am longing to see you."
Then, in January, 1926, came her denial of AA in National Tidende.
From Peter Kurth: "Under the circumstances, Gilliard had the right to do anyting he pleased. "It was I who persuaded Grand Duchess Olga to issue the denial which appeared in the Danish Press....," he admitted some months later."
"Before granting Andrew the permission to investigate the affair, however, Olga added frankly: "You think I may be wrong. Such mistakes can of course happen. One way or the other it is ghastly."
"As Zahle explained it to Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg, Grand Duchess Olga, during the second consultation with the Dowager Empress, was so nervous that she never took her eyes off her embroidery. When Zahle asked the Empress to consider how it would look to the world and to history if everything were not done that could be done to clear up this case, the Empress replied only: "My daughter Olga tells me this woman is not my granddaughter" (Interview with Prince Frederick of Saxe-Altenburg). And from the Zahle questionnaire: "Did Grand Duchess Olga's behavior (at this meeting) give Excellency Zahle the impression that she was deeply shamed by the contradiction between her behavior after her visit to the claimant in Berlin, when the Grand Duchess took the identity of the claimant with her niece to be as good as certain, and her subsequent denial of that identity in the press?""

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat we've all seen your anti Olga collection a dozen times. I'm not going to sit here and match quotes with you from her bio, or things I just reread in Massie that contradict all that. The only proof we need is that the DNA didn't match, the bodies have all been found, and AA was not AN therefore Olga was right and deserves an APOLOGY instead of more smears and insinuations. She didn't turn her back on her 'niece' she denied an imposter, and as I explained in the second part of the post you cut off, she had no money! It's all so terrible to villify this lady, even years after her death, for your own advantage. AA was not AN, she was right, let it go!

 

[ChatNoir]

Chat we've all seen your anti Olga collection a dozen times. I'm not going to sit here and match quotes with you from her bio, or things I just reread in Massie that contradict all that. The only proof we need is that the DNA didn't match, the bodies have all been found, and AA was not AN therefore Olga was right and deserves an APOLOGY instead of more smears and insinuations. She didn't turn her back on her 'niece' she denied an imposter, and as I explained in the second part of the post you cut off, she had no money! It's all so terrible to villify this lady, even years after her death, for your own advantage. AA was not AN, she was right, let it go!

For my own advantage? I have no idea what you are talking about. All I am doing, is trying to get the story straight, not speculating and insinuating like some others. If you see her own sayings and writings as "anti Olga collection", that is your problem.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

For my own advantage? I have no idea what you are talking about. All I am doing, is trying to get the story straight, not speculating and insinuating like some others.

No, you are trying to say that Olga believed in AA but was influenced by others to withdraw her support. You insinuate she DID accept her but was forced to deny her. You do this to try to bolster your own position that AA was AN, and because a close aunt's denial is a blow to the cause, you have to try to undermine it. If you really wanted to 'set the story straight' you'd admit that, no matter what, Olga DID NOT DENY ANY "NIECE" and apologize for attempting to frame her.

If you see her own sayings and writings as "anti Olga collection", that is your problem.

I have my own 'pro Olga collection' but since these quotes have been posted multiple times already by both of us I'm going to spare everyone.

 

[ChatNoir]

No, you are trying to say that Olga believed in AA but was influenced by others to withdraw her support.

And as you have seen, Gilliard was the one to admit that he talked her into the denial in the Copenhagen paper.

You insinuate she DID accept her but was forced to deny her.

I insinuate nothing, I only quote Olga's own cards and Herluf Zahle's statements.

You do this to try to bolster your own position that AA was AN, and because a close aunt's denial is a blow to the cause, you have to try to undermine it. If you really wanted to 'set the story straight' you'd admit that, no matter what, Olga DID NOT DENY ANY "NIECE" and apologize for attempting to frame her.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it will make any difference who AA was whether or not Olga accepted her. I have no idea why you are working yourself into a snit over this.

I have my own 'pro Olga collection' but since these quotes have been posted multiple times already by both of us I'm going to spare everyone.

Thank you.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

This still doesn't prove she knew or could speak it! Studying does not = proficiency, in languages or anything else.
Speaking of these 'schoolbooks', where were they, who saw them, and where are they now?

They were bought by Ian Lilburn for the court case (in 1964 I believe) originally to try and get fingerprints from them. According to a Times report of the trial (I think I've already posted the date, if not am happy to look it up again) the schoolbooks dated from 1913 to 1916. They were produced as evidence in court for the trial. They were not returned to Ian Lilburn and as far as I am aware they are still with the rest of the evidence from the case, wherever that is - Hamburg presumably.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

What happened to the fingerprints?

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

What happened to the fingerprints?

They couldn't get any. GD Anastasia was a very neat pupil, no blotches etc anywhere in her books to give them a print.

I' m surprised you don't already know this. It is detailed in PK's book and I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere.

 

[AGRBear]

In order to have found a fingerprint in those days, they would have destroyed GD Anastasia book/books and the court in AA's case ruled not to do so. Today, the fingerprints might be found with new technic that would not destroy the books.

If my memory serves me well this afternoon, I believe the books were sold and the present owner's name is not known to the public.


AGRBear

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

In order to have found a fingerprint in those days, they would have destroyed GD Anastasia book/books and the court in AA's case ruled not to do so. Today, the fingerprints might be found with new technic that would not destroy the books.

If my memory serves me well this afternoon, I believe the books were sold and the present owner's name is not known to the public.


AGRBear

Bear, how could they be sold? They were taken by the court as part of the evidence in the case and never returned to Ian Lilburn who was the rightful owner. Maybe there was another set of schoolbooks that you are thinking of?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Seems like I remember Chat posting once somewhere that Darmstadt had the fingerprints and was hiding them, or something like that.

 

[ChatNoir]

Seems like I remember Chat posting once somewhere that Darmstadt had the fingerprints and was hiding them, or something like that.

To the best of my knowledge, the schoolbooks were not Ian Lilburn's private property. Their purchase was sanctioned by AA's attorneys, and they are probably being kept together with all the other material pertaining to the case.
As for Darmstadt hiding the fingerprints, this is something that I have never posted. Darmstadt did hide the positive results of the graphological test that Lucy Weiszäcker did in the late 20's, or maybe even destroyed them.

 

[AGRBear]

To the best of my knowledge, the schoolbooks were not Ian Lilburn's private property. Their purchase was sanctioned by AA's attorneys, and they are probably being kept together with all the other material pertaining to the case. ..[in part]...

Are any of AA's lawyers still living? If they have died, who, at this point in time, would have the material, such as GD Anastasia's books?

Anyone know from whom they had purchased the books?

The word "private auction" still pops up in my head when referring to these books. I cannot pull the rest of the story out of my memory bank at this time. Sorry.

AGRBear

 

[ChatNoir]

The books were purchased at an auction in London by Ian Lilburn, who was permitted to do so by AA's lawyer, Carl August Wollmann. I assume that the books now are in the German State archives as are the rest of the papers pertaining to the lawsuit.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

another claimant denied by Gilliard:

Story : Alexei Poutziado is the first pretender recorded. He appears in Omsk city in 1919 and was quickly unmasked by Pierre Gilliard, the former Alexei preceptor which evoque this story in his book "Le tragique Destin de Nicolas II et de sa famille" :
"General D- informed me that he wanted to show me a 'boy who claimed to be the Tsarevich'. I knew in fact that a rumour was spreading in Omsk that the Tsarevich was still alive. He was announced to be in a small town of Altai. I had been told that the inhabitants had greeted him with enthusiasm, the schoolchildren had made a collection on his behalf, and the governor of the station had offered him, on his knees, bread and salt.

In addition, Admiral Kolchak had received a telegram asking him to come to the assistance of the pretended Tsarevich (Shortly after my departure the bogus Tsarevich ultimately confessed the imposture). I had paid no attention to these stories.

Fearing that these circumstances might give rise to difficulties, the Admiral had had the "Pretender" brought to Omsk; and General D- had called for me, thinking that my evidence would settle the difficulty and put a stop to the legend that was beginning to grow up.

The door of the next room was opened a little, and I was able to observe, unknown to him, a boy, taller and stronger than the Tsarevich, who seemed to me fifteen or sixteen years old. His sailor's costume, the colour of his hair, and the way it was arranged were vaguely reminiscent of Aleksey Nicolaievich. There the resemblance ended.

I told General D- the result of my observations. The boy was introduced to me. I put several questions to him in French: he remained dumb. When a reply was insisted upon he said that he understood everything I had said but had his own reasons for only speaking Russian. I then addressed him in that language. This, too, brought no results. He said he had decided to answer no one but Admiral Kolchak himself. So our interview ended.

Chance had brought across my path the first of the countless pretenders who doubtless for many years to come will be a source of trouble and agitation among the ignorant and credulous masses of the Russian peasantry."

 

[ChatNoir]

Seems that Gilliard did not "unmask" AA with the same speed. Remember, he and Shura went to Berlin on the request of Olga in order to tell her if AA really was "the little one". "If she is, let me know, and I will come to Berlin and meet you". Apparently Gilliard let Olga know that the unknown woman in Berlin may have been Anastasia, because Olga did travel to Berlin when the patient was feeling a little better. And both she and Gilliard left Berlin "without being able to say that she was NOT the Grand Duchess." Only after being away from her for 3 months did they come to the conclusion that it was not Anastasia.

 

[Michael HR]

True but as you can see the debate goes on.

For me it is over and I accept the DNA evidence from both graves but it is intresting to see what others think of this.

The difference is though that one of those viewpoints is proven to be wrong now. It is no longer opinion when we have an answer to our questions. Those who do not accept the answers are free to do so but will always be wrong and do not deserve their position to be respected as any other.

 

[ChatNoir]

Chat I will get back to you and your post but have been busy working on a case at work and not much free time.

I am still waiting........

 

[Michael HR]

Dear Chat,

I am sorry but I have been busy with more work projects than I know what to do with and apologize for the time it has taken me to repsond to your message. I must also admit in all honesty that this had slipped my mind and again apologize. I thank you for reminding me of this.

From memory you asked me to show where you had said that or called "Bux" a liar. This came out of a discussion relating to as I recall Gillard.

With regard to Bux it seems that I am mistaken. From memory the Baroness account of her flight from Russia does not mention when spoken to by the Soviets that she had betrayed the IF by informing that jewels were hidden on them in Ekaterinburg. Others have said that she did just that and by this action she had betrayed the IF.

Further, my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that money was sent to rescue the family and that this money did not reach who it should have done or was used for its purpose. The suggestion was that the Baroness had taken the money for her own use and thus also betrayed the family.

Both accounts cannot be correct. Either she did inform on the jewels and keep the money or she did not.

At the time I posted the message I had read so many messages from various members that I had mixed up this topic with Gillard. I think you mentoned that it was proven in Court in Germany that he had lied and that was the basis for your saying this and that therefore he was.

In relation to the Baroness I had asumed that you mean that she had lied in her account, leaving out the jewels and the money, and was therefore also a liar by default.

I accept that you did not say she was a liar and it was my assumption that has clouded my understanding of this exchange.

Therefore I apologize without reservation in relation to this misunderstanding of your position by myself in relation to the Baroness. It was me assuming that you thoght she was a liar in relation to actually saying that she was.


I have taken up your suggestion and have purchaed the following books:-

Nicholas and Alexandra

The last Tsar

Fate of the Romonovs

Anastasia - at the court of Anna Anderson

The Russian Revolution

The file on the Tsar

Ekaterinburg

The fall of the Romonovs

Nicholas II

As it is some years since I have read up on this subject I will refresh my memory.

 

[ChatNoir]

Thank you, MichaelHR, you are a gentleman after all. And maybe I am not quite as nasty as you describe me on other forums.......
Please add to your list of books:
Anastasia by Harriet Rathlef Keilmann
Anastasia, the Woman who rose again by Gleb Botkin.
Lots of information to find in these two, although they are rather hard to come by. But they are the only two books that describe Anna Anderson's life in the twenties as it actually took place.

 

[Michael HR]

I will try and get them. So you understand my position I do not think that AA was AN due if only to the DNA. However, I do accept that anothers point of view is as valid as mine at the very least.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And AA being found to be a person with whom she has nothing in common is still puzzling to me.

This is your biased view, others disagree. For example, many people who look at the photos feel she looks more like FS than AN. I really don't see that AA and AN had anything in common other than a foot problem, and other things were all subjective, and contradictory on both sides. She really really wasn't this identical twin you make her out to be. But no one's personal opinion can prove a thing.

From "Tsar": In 1994, at the very moment the DNA experts concluded that Mrs, Anderson was not the tsar's daughter, new forensic comparions of her face an ears with pictures of the young Anastasia, commissioned for a television documentary in England and following routine procedures of legal identification, reached exactly the opposite conclusion. The expereiment was later successfully repeated by specialists in the United States, and their conclusions, too, were delivered with "certainty" - Anna Anderson was Anastasia. The DNA tests have won the hour, and will probably stand as the final work on a case that has left everyone who came near it, for or against, with a sense of tragedy and persistent, nagging doubts.

What show was this? Please name it and give us exact words and quotes. If the show in question was NOVA's Anastasia special, the ear specialists said nothing 'with certainty', and the face expert, Geoffrey Oxlee, using modern computer techniques to fuse pictures of AA and FS declared them to be one in the same- NOT AA and AN, it was AA and FS. I can post some screen caps of Oxlee's tests showing AA's face a complete match to FS's.

Here is a link to the episode in question, unfortunately, there is no transcript available online at this time, but I've seen it and it I know what was in it, and it's available to buy if anyone wants to see for themselves.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/programs/2209_anastasi.html

So it appears a vague claim of 'a television documentary in England' doesn't prove anything if you can't name the show and tell us the names of those involved in the testing. Is there another program other than NOVA that did testings? If so, please give us a link. I have heard nothing at all, and seen no evidence of these tests being repeated in the US, if you have a source, please show us.

 

[BorisRom]

Cinderella's glass slippers

Once again:
(http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...and-duchess-anastasia-16118-7.html#post729861)
Anna Anderson and GD Anastasia: Cinderella’s glass slippers.

1. GD Anastasia had CONGENITAL “Hallux Valgus” (bunions).
The identity of the congenital deformity of GD Anastasia's feet, which was very pronounced, is not only visible in photographs of the young grand duchess, but was confirmed even by those close to ANR who did NOT believe in AA's identity (for instance, the tsar's
younger sister GD Olga Alexandrovna – and she well knew the imperial children since their birth). It *was* congenital, and it was not caused by anything else. The nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva confirmed Anastasia’s congenital bunions too.

2. Anna Anderson had CONGENITAL hallux valgus (bunions) too.
Except of this diagnosis of German doctors (in Dalldorf, 1920), the diagnosis "the congenital “Hallux Valgus" was put also by the Russian doctor Sergey Mihajlovich Rudnev in St.Maria's clinic in the summer of 1925 (AA was very hardly sick of a tubercular infection):
«On her right foot I have noticed strong deformation, OBVIOUSLY, CONGENITAL: the big finger bend to the right, forming a tumour». Hallux Valgus was on her both feet. (Peter Kurth's book [Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson], in Russian, p.99). Doctor Rudnev has cured and has rescued her life in 1925. AA named him «my kind Russian professor who has rescued my life».

3. On July, 27, 1925 to Berlin the spouses Gillard have arrived. Once again: Shura Gillard-Tegleva was the nurse-maid of GD Anastasia in Russia. They have visited very much sick AA in clinic. Shura has asked to show the feet of the patient. The blanket has been cast cautiously away, Shura has exclaimed:
«With [Anastasia] it was the same as here: the right foot was worse than the left» (Peter Kurth."Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson", in Russian, p.121)
***
Now, the statistics data of “Hallux Valgus” (bunions):
-- the "hallux valgus" (HV) has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes (in modern Russia) 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000!
We can assume the statistics data of a congenital case «hallux valgus» in former Russia did not differ too strongly (let even in some times, 1: 10 000 000). Thus the case of “AA was not ANR” has the probability from 1:10 millions to 1:17 millions.
In addition:
The citation from article about congenital “hallux valgus” of AA (“Gone with the wind”, L-A newspaper "Panorama", February, 2007):
“As one of the orthopedists (advising me) has expressed: «It is easier to find two girls of one age with identical FINGER PRINTS, than with attributes CONGENITAL hallux valgus”
***
Thus, I think (I hope , very rare congenital deformation of feet "hallux valgus" of AA and ANR puts a fat point in fierce disputes of supporters and opponents of Anna Anderson.

Boris

P.S. Of course, I can suppose many opponents (opponents of Anna Anderson) will keep their former opinion, but henceforth they should demonstratively deny down the stated above.
P.P.S. ... and they should deny Peter Kurth's book on former - the main thing!

Thus,
The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification. Hence, thereof, the burden of an explanation of discrepancy of DNA-tests should lie down completely on the opponents of Anna Anderson. They should find a mistake or traces of falsification. Supporters of Anna Anderson can engage in more important affairs now: in particular, to find-out (investigation) of mess with remains of Imperial family in Russia.