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  #901  
Old 07-07-2008, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
During Anderson's German court cases the press were always more interested in reporting her side of the story then the opposing benches less glamorous perspective, editors often pulled journalists after reporting testimony delivered by her side and ignored the rebuttal, resulting in the public seldom getting a complete picture......

This comment that papers removed their reporters before the rebuttals and did not present both sides fairly really should be proven or disproven if possible. I can't imagine that any decent newspaper editor worth his salt would do this, since it would lead to accusations of bias (where there any such accusations at the time?)

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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
You said you like comments from people who were there. He was there, he saw it happen. What good would names of 1950's German papers do, no one would be able to check it out anyway.....


Actually they would. Most papers these days have online archives so it would be very easy to check these to see how the case was reported. You get us the names of the papers and we will see what we can find. For example, we have a subscription at work to Frankfurter Allgemeine and I am hoping to look at their archive for the articles written during the trail (I believe by Klaus Wagner) to see what they said. FAZ is the German equivalent of the Times but I am sure there were reports in other papers such as Die Welt. There are also a lot of articles about the case in the Times archive but I don't have time to sift through them right now. It may take me a couple of weeks because of work commitments but I will post some here. If nothing else it will be very interesting to read some contemporaneous reporting of the case for ourselves.






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  #902  
Old 07-07-2008, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
This comment that papers removed their reporters before the rebuttals and did not present both sides fairly really should be proven or disproven if possible. I can't imagine that any decent newspaper editor worth his salt would do this, since it would lead to accusations of bias (where there any such accusations at the time?)


You AA supporters always use 'eyewitness accounts from those who where there at the time!' Well, that's what this is!

I had always wondered why there was so much pro AA info in the media and so little, if any, from the other side. When I saw his remarks, it really rang a bell for me- no wonder! Also notice the parts where he and Prince Michael both say the movie "Anastasia" was so popular that it swayed a lot of public opinion against them and they couldn't fight the glamour of the 'lost princess' story. Most people would rather believe the 'poor thing stiffed by her awful relatives' excuse, because believing the myth was more fun.
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  #903  
Old 07-07-2008, 01:37 PM
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I don't suppose he would have taken the case if he had not thought from the outset that she was an imposter.



It was seeing the files on FS given to him by others that made him so sure. It wasn't just a hunch. According to him, there was a lot of evidence proving she was FS. I can only hope one day his memoirs will come out so we can see.


Quote:
(Incidentally, can you tell us what the actual source for these interviews is? When was von Berenberg-Gossler interviewed, and by whom? "Remembering Anna Anderson part II" doesn't tell us much.)
I don't know if it was that website or if it was republished from a magazine with their permission. Maybe you can write and ask them.

Quote:
von B-G is quoted as saying There is no proof that she received any help from the Soviets. If she had financial help from them, how come she was always so hard up?
It may not have been financial help. It could have been a lot of other things- maybe help with memories of inside Russia, maybe getting her out of legal trouble when she was about to be declared FS and charged with fraud (I think even PK once said the Germans said 'someone very high up' had stopped this from happening, but no name was given)



Quote:
Just because Lenin had a file on her, doesn't particularly mean that much since the Soviets had files on lots of people. I expect they had files on Grand Duchesses Olga, Xenia, et al - most if not all high profile emigres. Incidentally, who found that he had this file and where was it? In his desk drawer? In the Kremlin? In the state archives? When did the file begin? The statement above would suggest that the file began in 1920 or just after.
You are expecting me to know quite a bit. I have only read the same article as you. We can only guess. There was one other mention of this, once on AP, it was posted that during one of Bob A's trips to Russia, this file on AA and how Lenin helped her came up in conversation. If I had the money and time and access to Russian files, I'd go investigate, however I don't. I am, though, assuming this info is not to AA's benefit of being "Anastasia" or surely one of her globe trotting supporters would have found it and told us.





  #904  
Old 07-07-2008, 02:06 PM
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[quote=Anna was Franziska;796094]


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It was seeing the files on FS given to him by others that made him so sure. It wasn't just a hunch. According to him, there was a lot of evidence proving she was FS. I can only hope one day his memoirs will come out so we can see.


I wonder where this lot of evidence went in court. It seems to me it all ran out the door with Doris Wingender.

Quote:
It may not have been financial help. It could have been a lot of other things- maybe help with memories of inside Russia, maybe getting her out of legal trouble when she was about to be declared FS and charged with fraud (I think even PK once said the Germans said 'someone very high up' had stopped this from happening, but no name was given)


Yes, I am sure Lenin knew a lot of intimate things from the court. As for this 'someone very high up', I have already in a former post explained to you that it was just a Nachtausgabe bluff. She was not about to be charged with anything, as you should remember from my earlier posts, the Bavarian Police refused to give in to demands from Darmstadt that she be arrested for fraud.
  #905  
Old 07-07-2008, 02:21 PM
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Just a reminder that to stay in compliance with the copyright law, we need to make sure that less than 20% of the total is posted here. Since this appears to be a book rather than an article, it shouldn't be a problem, but I thought I'd mention it.

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  #906  
Old 07-07-2008, 03:02 PM
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That's all I have for now, I have no idea how long the book is but it's been out of print for over 75 years and the writer had no heirs so I doubt anyone is going to cause grief over it. Anyway it's surely far less than 20%.
  #907  
Old 07-07-2008, 03:32 PM
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Some things I wanted to bring to attention:

Of all of my close relatives, I would want to see the Grand Duchess Xenia first.

I liked this aunt a lot, and I am sure that she will recognize me better then the other aunts, although I do not understand why other persons who have known me well beforehand do not recognize me now.

My aunt Xenia Alexandrovna often called me "Astouchka", and when I have recalled this name to her, she will no longer have doubt of my identity.

This is very telling for two reasons, Xenia was not the aunt AN was close to, but Olga, and it was later proven that the nickname was completely false and no one had ever called Anastasia by that name.

the one who called herself Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna declared that in fact, being in Romania, she had, due to the advice of her companion, tried all means to alter her facial features. She received, from an intermediary, this person who died in Romania, a device (apparatus), that she used on her face and succeeded a little in changing the form of her nose and mouth.

Well isn't this interesting! I laughed out loud when I first read this part. It must mean that deep down she and her supporters knew she didn't resemble AN very much and tried to make excuses. It was a silly excuse, which is probably why we never hear more of it, only claims of her being 'identical', of pictures where she's biting her lips or hiding the lower part of her face with props such as her hand or a boa. Also there has been the excuse that her face changed after it was healed from being bayonetted/rifle butted, which is also ridiculous because it would have been a scarred version of AA"s face not a different face altogether. But the fact that they tried to make excuses for her 'changed' appearance proves they recognized the differences early on and tried to compensate for them.

Here is Von Kliest's very words on how she became "Anastasia" instead of 'Tatiana"

I asked the Unknown one if she would consent to say her name to me. I wanted to write on a slip of paper two names, whereby she would cross out the one that would be false, after which I would destroy the paper. The unknown one accepted my suggestion. I wrote on the paper the names of Anastasia and of Tatiana in Russian and then I passed her the paper. Having read it, she crossed out the name of Tatiana, and returned me the paper that was immediately destroyed, as planned. Some moments later, the unknown one asked me not to change anything in our rapport, because of this declaration, and not to observe etiquette.

From Clara P's letter, a wild story of how she came to be in the canal- it wasn't a suicide attempt! She was followed by (unknown enemies) from Romania and when they found her, they drugged her, changed her clothes and threw her in the canal!

The young lady does not want one to say that she is the Grand Duchess, or Mrs Tschaiikovsi, for when those who followed her discovered the hideout of her family to Bucharest, she had to flee again. She tried to loose their track leaving first to Paris where she knows a Baron Taube. From Paris, she came to Berlin. She was scarcely there for eight days when someone recognized her. One evening, in an automobile, she was drugged to sleep, they removed her clothes for her and put on others, and she was thrown, still totally drugged, in a lake by the zoo. When she was drug out, it was believed that she had tried to commit suicide, and was driven to the Elisabeth hospital. As she is not known in Warsaw under the name Tschaiikovski, she was transferred to the Dalldorf asylum. It is absurd to believe that this lady, who fled Bucharest in the middle of so many difficulties to save her life, wanted to commit suicide here, in Berlin. Only a madman would concede that. This lady has a firm will to live,

Also note that Clara's telling of the story puts her first in Paris before coming to Berlin, a new twist to the story. In both the accounts of Clara and Von Kliest, she allegedly gave birth along the way on the trip, Clara giving a name (Alexis) and Von Kliest a date (Dec. 5, 1918) Later supporters were to deny this as 'Von Kliest's lies' but you see the name did not come from him but Clara.

In conclusion, what's obviously going on here is either that she herself has told so many different versions of the story she is mixed up, or that she has so many others helping her invent it they cannot keep their tales straight. It's all obviously ficticious, and as any policeman or detective will tell you, the first sign of a liar is constantly changing the story.
  #908  
Old 07-07-2008, 03:37 PM
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[quote=ChatNoir;796109]
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post




I wonder where this lot of evidence went in court. It seems to me it all ran out the door with Doris Wingender.
Oh no, it continued on and in 1961 three judges ruled that her ID as FS was 'eminently likely.' FS continued to be a factor all along and this is why it was her family who was seeked out to give a DNA sample. FS especially isn't 'out the door' now that scientists believe FS is the true identity of AA to 99.9% accuracy, and that a random match would be one in 56,000 years. I'm sorry I know how badly you want to get rid of FS but she's still here. Everytime you see a pic of AA, that's her!



Quote:
Yes, I am sure Lenin knew a lot of intimate things from the court. As for this 'someone very high up', I have already in a former post explained to you that it was just a Nachtausgabe bluff. She was not about to be charged with anything, as you should remember from my earlier posts, the Bavarian Police refused to give in to demands from Darmstadt that she be arrested for fraud.
This is your opinion of the Nachtausgabe, and the Berlin police did agree with Darmstadt's ID as FS. As for the reasons she wasn't officially charged, it's probably because she was taken to the US by Gleb to get her out of there.
  #909  
Old 07-07-2008, 03:45 PM
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And what did AA say about von Kleist? "The baron and his lies." The child was not born on December 5, 1918, that was the day the AA party crossed over the Dniestr and into Moldova. The child was born in autumn of 1919, she herself did not remember the date. The name of the child was not Alexei, but Alexander.
As we all know, both Gilliard and Constantine Savich have been caught in lies several times. After the book was written, Gilliard burned all his files. The book was not a success upon publication and quickly went out of print.
  #910  
Old 07-07-2008, 03:51 PM
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Of course she, the baron and Clara all changed things as they went along when they realized something else might look better. She also (and this is in Kurth's book) mentioned being sexually active with guards, but apparently dropped that when she thought it might make her look bad to aristocrats. It was probably Rathlef, a writer by profession (like Gleb) who perfected the final version. The bottom line is, her entire 'escape story' is so full of holes you could drive a semi hauling a wide load through it.
  #911  
Old 07-07-2008, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Some things I wanted to bring to attention:

Of all of my close relatives, I would want to see the Grand Duchess Xenia first.

I liked this aunt a lot, and I am sure that she will recognize me better then the other aunts, although I do not understand why other persons who have known me well beforehand do not recognize me now.

My aunt Xenia Alexandrovna often called me "Astouchka", and when I have recalled this name to her, she will no longer have doubt of my identity.

This is very telling for two reasons, Xenia was not the aunt AN was close to, but Olga, and it was later proven that the nickname was completely false and no one had ever called Anastasia by that name.
And now we have no proof from Kleist, because his documents were burned together with Gilliard's papers.

Quote:
the one who called herself Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna declared that in fact, being in Romania, she had, due to the advice of her companion, tried all means to alter her facial features. She received, from an intermediary, this person who died in Romania, a device (apparatus), that she used on her face and succeeded a little in changing the form of her nose and mouth.
Quote:

Well isn't this interesting! I laughed out loud when I first read this part. It must mean that deep down she and her supporters knew she didn't resemble AN very much and tried to make excuses. It was a silly excuse, which is probably why we never hear more of it, only claims of her being 'identical', of pictures where she's biting her lips or hiding the lower part of her face with props such as her hand or a boa. Also there has been the excuse that her face changed after it was healed from being bayonetted/rifle butted, which is also ridiculous because it would have been a scarred version of AA"s face not a different face altogether. But the fact that they tried to make excuses for her 'changed' appearance proves they recognized the differences early on and tried to compensate for them.
This sounds like one of Savich's stories. You remember him, who went around making speeches about AA and how she had been married to a member of the mob in Poland.

Quote:
Here is Von Kliest's very words on how she became "Anastasia" instead of 'Tatiana"

I asked the Unknown one if she would consent to say her name to me. I wanted to write on a slip of paper two names, whereby she would cross out the one that would be false, after which I would destroy the paper. The unknown one accepted my suggestion. I wrote on the paper the names of Anastasia and of Tatiana in Russian and then I passed her the paper. Having read it, she crossed out the name of Tatiana, and returned me the paper that was immediately destroyed, as planned. Some moments later, the unknown one asked me not to change anything in our rapport, because of this declaration, and not to observe etiquette.


And if you remember correctly, she already told Thea Malinovsky in the fall of 1921 who she was.

Quote:
From Clara P's letter, a wild story of how she came to be in the canal- it wasn't a suicide attempt! She was followed by (unknown enemies) from Romania and when they found her, they drugged her, changed her clothes and threw her in the canal!

The young lady does not want one to say that she is the Grand Duchess, or Mrs Tschaiikovsi, for when those who followed her discovered the hideout of her family to Bucharest, she had to flee again. She tried to loose their track leaving first to Paris where she knows a Baron Taube. From Paris, she came to Berlin. She was scarcely there for eight days when someone recognized her. One evening, in an automobile, she was drugged to sleep, they removed her clothes for her and put on others, and she was thrown, still totally drugged, in a lake by the zoo. When she was drug out, it was believed that she had tried to commit suicide, and was driven to the Elisabeth hospital. As she is not known in Warsaw under the name Tschaiikovski, she was transferred to the Dalldorf asylum. It is absurd to believe that this lady, who fled Bucharest in the middle of so many difficulties to save her life, wanted to commit suicide here, in Berlin. Only a madman would concede that. This lady has a firm will to live,

Also note that Clara's telling of the story puts her first in Paris before coming to Berlin, a new twist to the story. In both the accounts of Clara and Von Kliest, she allegedly gave birth along the way on the trip, Clara giving a name (Alexis) and Von Kliest a date (Dec. 5, 1918) Later supporters were to deny this as 'Von Kliest's lies' but you see the name did not come from him but Clara.
And where is the copy of Clara's letter? Burned, together with the other "evidence.

Quote:
In conclusion, what's obviously going on here is either that she herself has told so many different versions of the story she is mixed up, or that she has so many others helping her invent it they cannot keep their tales straight. It's all obviously ficticious, and as any policeman or detective will tell you, the first sign of a liar is constantly changing the story.
I would say that the sure sign of a liar, is to burn all evidence.
  #912  
Old 07-07-2008, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
And now we have no proof from Kleist, because his documents were burned together with Gilliard's papers.
That must have been very handy for AA supporters.

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This sounds like one of Savich's stories. You remember him, who went around making speeches about AA and how she had been married to a member of the mob in Poland.
You are only assuming. There is no connection. It appears that AA told him this.

Quote:
And if you remember correctly, she already told Thea Malinovsky in the fall of 1921 who she was.
I recall that you keep saying that, but there's no proof other than word of mouth, and when she said it to the paper she said 1922, then tried to say they changed it. That's very very shaky ground, it doesn't hold up.


Quote:
And where is the copy of Clara's letter? Burned, together with the other "evidence.
Good thing we have a copy!



Quote:
I would say that the sure sign of a liar, is to burn all evidence.
Could be somebody who was fed up with the whole thing. Or since he's a liar, maybe he didn't really burn it and the papers will turn up someday in an old attic.
  #913  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
That must have been very handy for AA supporters.
But not so handy for Gilliard, who had to admit in the Hamburg court that he had been telling lies.

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You are only assuming. There is no connection. It appears that AA told him this.
Of course there is a connection, Savich was the co-author of this book.

Quote:
I recall that you keep saying that, but there's no proof other than word of mouth, and when she said it to the paper she said 1922, then tried to say they changed it. That's very very shaky ground, it doesn't hold up.
Word of mouth? What about testimony in Hamburg both from Nurse Malinovsky and Dr. Chemnitz. And she did NOT say 1922 to the paper, the Nachtausgabe either lied, or made an honest mistake. In any case, they did not restore the original document to Ms. Malinovsky. Besides, in 1922 AA was far away from Dalldorf, and the story would have made no sense at all.

Quote:
Good thing we have a copy!
We do?

Quote:
Could be somebody who was fed up with the whole thing. Or since he's a liar, maybe he didn't really burn it and the papers will turn up someday in an old attic.
I doubt that very much. If those papers again saw the light of day, they would most probably be very damaging for the Gilliard/Savich team. The first thing you do when committing a crime, is to erase all clues.
  #914  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:15 PM
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I am not arguing with you over the nurse again. You think the paper lied, I think she did, we'll never solve it. But it sure looks like she was not right, since AA was not AN, and never really mentioned being a grand duchess until Clara gave her the idea.

Savitch's name is not on the book. He had nothing to do with the contents as what I posted is signed statements from the people who said them. It was Von Kliest who told the story of the face altering device.
  #915  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:22 PM
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[quote=Anna was Franziska;796144]
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Oh no, it continued on and in 1961 three judges ruled that her ID as FS was 'eminently likely.' FS continued to be a factor all along and this is why it was her family who was seeked out to give a DNA sample. FS especially isn't 'out the door' now that scientists believe FS is the true identity of AA to 99.9% accuracy, and that a random match would be one in 56,000 years. I'm sorry I know how badly you want to get rid of FS but she's still here. Everytime you see a pic of AA, that's her!
The judges ruled that the claimant was defeated. FS was again a factor in the final suit, and the end of that claim went out the door with Doris Wingender and her doctored photos. And every time I see a picture of AA, I see AN.

Quote:
This is your opinion of the Nachtausgabe, and the Berlin police did agree with Darmstadt's ID as FS. As for the reasons she wasn't officially charged, it's probably because she was taken to the US by Gleb to get her out of there.
No, this is not my opinion of the Nachtausgabe, this is Thea Malinovski's opinion. And as you have seen from my earlier post, nobody at the police headquarters wanted to take responsibility for the "identification" of AA as FS. The whole thing was orchestrated from Darmstadt. And she was not taken to US by Gleb, but by Xenia Leeds. Also remember, she was back again a year and a half later, and nobody ever tried to arrest her for fraud.
  #916  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:31 PM
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[quote=ChatNoir;796162]
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post

The judges ruled that the claimant was defeated. FS was again a factor in the final suit, and the end of that claim went out the door with Doris Wingender
To put it kindly, this just plain isn't so. It's a reality that FS remained a factor all along and ended up being her true identity. Look at Berenberg Gossler, he was using FS years after Doris 'ran out the door.' You've tried that dog too many times, he won't fetch.

Quote:
And every time I see a picture of AA, I see AN.
That may be what you see, but that's not who you're looking at.


Quote:
No, this is not my opinion of the Nachtausgabe, this is Thea Malinovski's opinion.
If she was lying, or mixed up, what does that mean? Nothing! It didn't happen, and if her shaky word is all we have that's not much! Come on and get real, as much attention as she got after her claim started with Clara do you really believe if she was AN she just sat there in an asylum all that time knowing who she was and allowing herself to be treated like a crazy peasant? Please, think through this.

Quote:
And as you have seen from my earlier post, nobody at the police headquarters wanted to take responsibility for the "identification" of AA as FS. The whole thing was orchestrated from Darmstadt.
Yes they did. His name was Drescher. I have names and dates.

The Berlin police department eventually admitted they had decided to go along with Darmstadt's identification, and Heinz Drescher of Berlin Police Headquarters said that he had signed certain documents saying that identity has been established. "According to the material we have from the Haus-und-Vermoegensverwalten of the former Grand Duke of Hesse, and from various notices in the press, the alleged Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia, is, in reality, Franziska Schanzkowska, born on 16.12.96 in Borowihlas, and this is supposedly proved definitively."

Quote:
And she was not taken to US by Gleb, but by Xenia Leeds.
Gleb took her, there are pics of them arriving together. Leeds wasn't even at home. Leeds did not go asking for her, Gleb asked Leeds.
  #917  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
I am not arguing with you over the nurse again. You think the paper lied, I think she did, we'll never solve it. But it sure looks like she was not right, since AA was not AN, and never really mentioned being a grand duchess until Clara gave her the idea.
There is no need to argue, AA could not have told Thea Malinovsky anything in the fall of 1922, so therefore it HAD to be 1921, the only fall they spent together at Dalldorf.

Quote:
Savitch's name is not on the book. He had nothing to do with the contents as what I posted is signed statements from the people who said them. It was Von Kliest who told the story of the face altering device.
And where are those "signed statements" now? Burned to ashes. As AA said: "The baron and his lies."
  #918  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:34 PM
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There is no need to argue, AA could not have told Thea Malinovsky anything in the fall of 1922, so therefore it HAD to be 1921, the only fall they spent together at Dalldorf.
or, perhaps, it never happened at all!

I am NOT arguing you over this silly nurse story again. You know I don't believe it's credible so it's useless.


Quote:
And where are those "signed statements" now? Burned to ashes. As AA said: "The baron and his lies."
AA was no truth teller herself. She shouldn't blame the man for her own mess.

ALSO note much of what is in contention came from Clara, not the 'baron!' Apparently this is the original version she told Clara in the asylum? Her version is different from the baron's.
  #919  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:43 PM
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or, perhaps, it never happened at all!

I am NOT arguing you over this silly nurse story again. You know I don't believe it's credible so it's useless.
As I have said, there is nothing to argue about. The Hamburg testimony from her and Dr. Chemnitz speak for itself.

Quote:
AA was no truth teller herself. She shouldn't blame the man for her own mess.
Funny you should say that. Every doctor or person who studied her and was close to her, testified to her absolute honesty. According to them, she never contradicted herself or told lies.
  #920  
Old 07-07-2008, 04:51 PM
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Oh Chat how many times have we been through this? If you use testimony from one side you have to accept it from another too but you call everyone else 'liars' so it all becomes silly. Just because a person says something doesn't make it true. And she did lie if she pretended to be someone other than her true self FS.

May we PLEASE stick to this topic of items posted new in this thread and not rehash the entire mess we've done a 100 times before? This is becoming redundant or the 150th time and running everyone else off because they don't want to see it again.
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