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  #801  
Old 07-03-2008, 11:50 AM
Anna was Franziska's Avatar
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I am going now, I will be gone for a few days, I leave you with this. (still waiting for sources and proof)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post


This is quite a stretch, and pure speculation.


This is exactly what I'm trying to say about the position held by you and Chat. We now have scientific proof that AA was not AN and that the entire family died in 1918, making all the survivor stories impossible. Therefore if you cannot produce a source proving that the intestines were not AA's, or that the tests were rigged, you have nothing to stand on, other than, well, rumors and speculation.

AA supporters love to drag out lists of quotes from Kurth's book, this person said this or that (though in almost every case it was refuted by conveniently ignored comments from those on the other side) yet none of this matters anymore since we know that AA was not AN. We will never be able to prove who all helped AA with what but we know they had to because she wasn't AN. This is NOT speculation, this is logical deduction.

So, if you can't produce any proof that the intestine labeled as AA's was not hers, or that the hair labeled as AA's which perfectly matched the intestines was not hers, there's no case here. Come on, sources, proof, names and dates, who switched it, with what, when how and why. If you believe the swap happened during the 'chain of custody' please tell us how. If you believe the rigging was done in the labs, please tell us the names of the scientists who are guilty and who paid them off, and why. If all you have is a theory this 'may' have happened, then there is nothing there. The test results stand, and AA not AN so the rest is pointless.

I will not waste my time matching 75 year old quotes with any of you until you are able to do this.





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  #802  
Old 07-03-2008, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
This is quite a stretch, and pure speculation.
Actually it is FACT that she could speak some German. As I keep saying, her schoolbooks PROVE this. You accept that Anastasia could speak Russian so how do explain the fact that she was better at her German lessons than at her Russian ones? Do you understand the definition of "fact"? Apparently not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
So, if you can't produce any proof that the intestine labeled as AA's was not hers, or that the hair labeled as AA's which perfectly matched the intestines was not hers, there's no case here. Come on, sources, proof, names and dates, who switched it, with what, when how and why. If you believe the swap happened during the 'chain of custody' please tell us how. If you believe the rigging was done in the labs, please tell us the names of the scientists who are guilty and who paid them off, and why. If all you have is a theory this 'may' have happened, then there is nothing there. The test results stand, and AA not AN so the rest is pointless.
I have NEVER said that I think the intestines were swapped. What I believe is that DNA is not perfect and there are anomalies, therefore it should be looked at as PART of the whole evidence, including testimony.

Incidentally, you have not answered my question about the DNA tests on the blood sample.
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  #803  
Old 07-03-2008, 01:06 PM
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[quote]

Quote:
NONE of this proves that AN would have been able to speak German functionally. Witnesses, yes even Gilliard, said she couldnt't speak it. Bux said she knew 'a few words.' I know a few words, too. That doesn't mean it's suddenly going to be my main way to communicate as it was for AA/FS.

Who said that AA spoke German functionally? She spoke "a hopelessly muddled German with no regard for grammar." And as for Gilliard, wasn't he the one who said that the Grand Duchesses knew no German? Well, so much for his credibility.


Quote:
Well of course, since she didn't know how to speak English, Russian or French! Bux also stated that she spoke to her in English in phrases she used on the kids and it was clear she did not understand a word.

And how was it clear that she did not understand a word? When Bella Cohen spoke English to her, she answered back in English.


Quote:
It's accepted historical and scientific fact. If you feel the need to go to court go on.

No, I feel no need to go to court, I didn't even know the lady.

Quote:
For one thing, the languages! EVERYTHING!

Yes, we have quotes here from Olga and Gilliard that she knew no German. Sorry, they have been proven wrong. Anybody else?


Quote:
YES! Because the DNA makes the rest of it useless and invalid.

Then why are you arguing so hard against her?


Quote:
What's so 'shady?' This is your speculation and guessing and hoping. Please tell us what happened, when, how and where and who did it. If you cannot do this you are only speculating and you have nothing.

No, I have nothing. And I refuse to speculate.


Quote:
Yes I do,
Amazing, after all these years you believe AA to be FS and me to be Peter Kurth. Can anybody see the irony here?
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  #804  
Old 07-03-2008, 04:41 PM
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Chat, do you want a legal decision--is it because of the claim by Maria V. for her son and the throne??
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  #805  
Old 07-03-2008, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
Chat, do you want a legal decision--is it because of the claim by Maria V. for her son and the throne??
I just want to see if the DNA can withstand the scrutiny of the law.

Did you know that Vera von Klementz said that in was clear to her that AA had learned to play the piano? I cannot help wonder where FS took her 'Klavierunterrichtung'.
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  #806  
Old 07-03-2008, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
I just want to see if the DNA can withstand the scrutiny of the law.

Did you know that Vera von Klementz said that in was clear to her that AA had learned to play the piano? I cannot help wonder where FS took her 'Klavierunterrichtung'.

AA played the piano? Did AN play?
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  #807  
Old 07-03-2008, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
I just want to see if the DNA can withstand the scrutiny of the law.

Did you know that Vera von Klementz said that in was clear to her that AA had learned to play the piano? I cannot help wonder where FS took her 'Klavierunterrichtung'.
Where have you been? It has withstood the scrutiny of the law and of science. DNA has become a the very door that has opened the doors for those who have been wrongly imprisoned. All the other stuff in these discussions are pure speculation on both parts. DNA is science. A good portion of the people who think AA was AN, never met Anatasia. A good portion of Anastasia's family say AA wasn't her. Several have written books and have made money from their ventures saying whatever they wished. I have "no dog in this fight", just an expression. But DNA is sceience and very legally accepted.
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  #808  
Old 07-03-2008, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Where have you been?
Right here by the computer.

Quote:
It has withstood the scrutiny of the law and of science. DNA has become a the very door that has opened the doors for those who have been wrongly imprisoned. All the other stuff in these discussions are pure speculation on both parts. DNA is science.
I don't think we are disputing that.

Quote:
A good portion of the people who think AA was AN, never met Anatasia.
And a good portion of the people who met Anastasia thought that AA was AN.

Quote:
A good portion of Anastasia's family say AA wasn't her.
And how many of the family met AA?

Quote:
Several have written books and have made money from their ventures saying whatever they wished. I have "no dog in this fight", just an expression. But DNA is sceience and very legally accepted.
Then why has there been no legal decision in the AA case?
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  #809  
Old 07-03-2008, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
You posted a picture of it over on King and Wilson. Aaaah. I miss that forum!
AA played the piano? Did AN play?
Yes, AN played. When Mrs. Hesse asked AA who Conrad was, AA smiled and made movements with her hands as if playing the piano. It turned out that Conrad was the piano teacher at the Alexander Palace, and the only reason Mrs. Hesse knew about him, was that her own children took lessons from him as well. He was not very well known at the court, and his name was seldom mentioned.
As I have said before: That Franziska was something else.
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  #810  
Old 07-03-2008, 09:52 PM
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This is a reminder, which shouldn't be necessary but apparently is, to not disclose or speculate on the identities of other posters in this discussion. I've just had to clean up the second outbreak of this in the last few days; it's happening on both sides of the argument, and it needs to stop. People should be able to post here without having their real identities become an issue unless they don't mind.

Please remember this rule
  • Please respect the privacy of royals and other public figures, as well as other members of this forum. Personal information that may invade their privacy, such as the posting of private phone numbers or addresses, will be deleted.
and let's put a stop to it before things get any further out of control and before any more members end up being suspended for it.

Elspeth
for the Royal Forums admin team
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  #811  
Old 07-03-2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
My point is that (while no-one may have disproven what he said) if he doesn't have the necessary scientific background then it is only his opinion, which counts for no more than anyone else's - including mine or yours - and he should not be quoted as "an expert". If you want to quote Gill, Stoneking or someone of that ilk, that is a different matter.


I've been in touch with Dr Stoneking. You can see his response to me in this post.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tml#post733862

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
I have NEVER said that I think the intestines were swapped. What I believe is that DNA is not perfect and there are anomalies, therefore it should be looked at as PART of the whole evidence, including testimony.
What anomalies?


Quote:
Incidentally, you have not answered my question about the DNA tests on the blood sample.


I responded to it in this post.

The person dealing with the blood sample, which seems to have produced DNA that was fairly badly degraded, said right from the start that he thinks the work by Peter Gill and Mark Stoneking is generally believable. Peter Gill analysed the intestine sample and Mark Stoneking analysed the hair sample.

In the Gill and Stoneking paper, they said that the match with Karl Maucher was a strong indication, but not proof, that the two were related. Charles Ginther didn't dispute that.
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  #812  
Old 07-04-2008, 02:34 AM
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Elspeth after your above post, one would think "that is that" but somehow I doubt it.
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  #813  
Old 07-04-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I've been in touch with Dr Stoneking. You can see his response to me in this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
What anomalies?.
I am referring to DNA generally; we all have heard of anomalous cases, which is why I do not take it as stand alone evidence but, as I have said to AnnawasFranciszka, as part of the whole package. I am not a believer in the DNA was switched theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I responded to it in this post.
The person dealing with the blood sample, which seems to have produced DNA that was fairly badly degraded, said right from the start that he thinks the work by Peter Gill and Mark Stoneking is generally believable. Peter Gill analysed the intestine sample and Mark Stoneking analysed the hair sample.
In the Gill and Stoneking paper, they said that the match with Karl Maucher was a strong indication, but not proof, that the two were related. Charles Ginther didn't dispute that.
Elspeth, thank you for replying to my questions directed at AnnawasFranciszka. I have not had the time to read back through all the old ones and since I only have limited time to view this site, I had missed your post regarding the blood sample.
Incidentally, do you know if the blood sample was tested against anything else (ie a control sample) to see if it always gave negatives whatever it was compared with


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  #814  
Old 07-04-2008, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Elspeth after your above post, one would think "that is that" but somehow I doubt it.

But if "that was that", what would we all do instead? and Elspeth would be out of a job as moderator!
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  #815  
Old 07-04-2008, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
... and Elspeth would be out of a job as moderator!
It may be hard to believe but TRF has a world of forums outside of the 'Questions of Identity' subforum for the Mods and Admins to look after.
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  #816  
Old 07-04-2008, 09:18 AM
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Warren donīt say that, this is the interesting thread and I want to stay here for a bit. Donīt get rid of us yet there are still a lot of episodes to go.
Like those old English comedy films "Carry On Anastasia".
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  #817  
Old 07-04-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
<font size="2"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font face="Arial">Actually it is FACT that she could speak some German. As I keep saying, her schoolbooks PROVE this. You accept that Anastasia could speak Russian so how do explain the fact that she was better at her German lessons than at her Russian ones? Do you understand the definition of &quot;fact&quot;? Apparently not
Schoolbooks do not prove a person was able to speak a language. You suppose this but don't you think that the people who knew her and said she did not speak it is a better proof than this guess?
Quote:
I have NEVER said that I think the intestines were swapped. What I believe is that DNA is not perfect and there are anomalies, therefore it should be looked at as PART of the whole evidence, including testimony.
I agree with Elspeth what anomalies? Can you enlighten us all please as to what sort of maladay would cause a person's DNA to morph into that of another family's? Do you not think it the least bit strange that while Anderson does not match the royals she does match the Schanzkowskys? Had there been something odd she would have matched no one at all. It is a little too much that not only did she not match the royals she did match the Schanzkowskys. I would be more inclined to accept some sort of oddness if the latter had not occurred but the fact that it did makes believing anything else unrealistic.
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  #818  
Old 07-04-2008, 11:29 AM
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Schoolbooks do not prove a person was able to speak a language. You suppose this but don't you think that the people who knew her and said she did not speak it is a better proof than this guess?
If you can WRITE in a language, you can also speak it. Trust me on that one.
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  #819  
Old 07-04-2008, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
If you can WRITE in a language, you can also speak it. Trust me on that one.
No, I donīt trust you on that Chat. I write and do translations of quite a few languages but get a bit tongue tied speaking some of them. My Spanish becomes Portuguese, my Portuguese becomes Italian but writing it? No problem.
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  #820  
Old 07-04-2008, 11:56 AM
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Let's get this back in context. The subject is schoolbooks. It's quite a leap to claim that written language in a schoolbook is proof-positive of the ability to speak that language.
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