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  #661  
Old 06-28-2008, 05:21 PM
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Here's an article from 1957 TIME magazine telling how her claim was denied in court

Anastasia - TIME

TIME Monday, Feb. 11, 1957

Last week, after combing a mountain of evidence and weighing the testimony of four anthropologists who studied the conformations of Anna's ears, nose and cheeks in relationship to photographs of the teen-aged Anastasia, the 83rd Civil Chamber of the West Berlin District Court at last reached a decision. In an impressive dossier of official documents, it notified Anna's lawyers that in its opinion their client was not the Romanov Princess, and had no claim to any part of the late Czar's estate.
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  #662  
Old 06-28-2008, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
When did Michael meet AN? When did he meet AA?
His brother, Alexander, did actually meet with AA. He later explained that she had reminded him in her appearance of his grandmother, Grand Duchess Xenia, and in her manner of his "Aunt Irina," Princess Yussoupov.
Perhaps his brother told him how she hid under the sheets when he was coming! Also it's strange he'd say she looked like Xenia or Irina, when the real Anastasia favored neither.


Quote:
Not if he could prove when and where. And Botkin had lots of stories to sell, but declined offers from New York papers just because AA told him not to write about her.
Which was all the more reason they had to file and win the court case to get the money.

Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler, opposing attorney in the Anna Anderson case in the 1950s, believes that although wishful thinking in Russian émigré circles played a part in the affair money was the principal motivation behind Anderson's claims, the supposed lost fortune of the Tsar estimated at US$80.000.000. "I believe it was at the beginning of the 1930's a corporation (Grandanor) came into existence," he says, "which sold certificates in proportion to tsarist gold roubles allegedly held by the Bank of England and redeemable if or when Anderson should "inherit" said funds. Naturally these papers were not worth anything, they served only to enrich the initiator". (source: 1998 interview with Dr. Berenberg-Gossler, Godl's article)

He had already profited from other books and articles written by her, and the lure of more on the story was likely what made him bring her to America. From what I've read, he had to get her out of Germany since Gilliard and Hesse were about to have her officially declared as FS and charged with fraud.

Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse-Darmstadt (brother of Tsarina Alexandra) hired his own private detectives to investigate Anderson's identity, and they, using records from Berlin, determined her to be the missing Polish factory worker Franziska Schanzkowska. The Berlin police department eventually admitted they had decided to go along with Darmstadt's identification, and Heinz Drescher of Berlin Police Headquarters said that he had signed certain documents saying that identity has been established. "According to the material we have from the Haus-und-Vermoegensverwalten of the former Grand Duke of Hesse, and from various notices in the press, the alleged Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia, is, in reality, Franziska Schanzkowska, born on 16.12.96 in Borowihlas, and this is supposedly proved definitively."

Hess. Polizeiamten Darmstadt, 20.5.27
"Erkennungsdienst" [Identification Service]
"Referring to the so-called Anastasia of Russia"
"From the Berlin daily report ["Tagesbericht"] No. 32 of 20.4.27 it is signed and signified officially as established that the identity of the `Unbekannte' has been completely assured as being that of Franziska Schanzkowska by the `Kriminalzentrale' of Darmstadt.
"All of this has been taken up and accepted by the police of Berlin.
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Perhaps his brother told him how she hid under the sheets when he was coming! Also it's strange he'd say she looked like Xenia or Irina, when the real Anastasia favored neither.
Hid under the sheets? I have no idea what you are referring to. When Alexander came to see her in Unterlengenhardt in the company of Ian Lilburn, she saw from a distance that he "had to be a descendant of Grand Duke Alexander, I recognize him on his ocean-like walk."

Quote:
Which was all the more reason they had to file and win the court case to get the money.
What money? Gleb Botkin was written up in AA's will, but he made arrangements for any monies coming his way to go directly to the American Red Cross.

Quote:
Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler,
Quote:
opposing attorney in the Anna Anderson case in the 1950s, believes that although wishful thinking in Russian émigré circles played a part in the affair money was the principal motivation behind Anderson's claims, the supposed lost fortune of the Tsar estimated at US$80.000.000. "I believe it was at the beginning of the 1930's a corporation (Grandanor) came into existence," he says, "which sold certificates in proportion to tsarist gold roubles allegedly held by the Bank of England and redeemable if or when Anderson should "inherit" said funds. Naturally these papers were not worth anything, they served only to enrich the initiator". (source: 1998 interview with Dr. Berenberg-Gossler, Godl's article)
Grandanor was instigated by Edward Fallows as a way to pay for AA's legal costs. If any fortune were to be found, the investors would be paid back handsomely. Gleb Botkin had nothing to do with it, he didn't have a penny to invest anyway.

Quote:
He had already profited from other books and articles written by her, and the lure of more on the story was likely what made him bring her to America. From what I've read, he had to get her out of Germany since Gilliard and Hesse were about to have her officially declared as FS and charged with fraud.
She went to America as the guest of Xenia Leeds.

Quote:
Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse-Darmstadt (brother of Tsarina Alexandra) hired his own private detectives to investigate Anderson's identity, and they, using records from Berlin, determined her to be the missing Polish factory worker Franziska Schanzkowska.


Not exactly. When Doris Wingender, who had "recognized" FS from a blurry photo of AA in the paper, "from which you could recognize anybody or nobody", walked into Fritz Lucke's office, her first words were: "Look, I've got some information about you Anastasia. How much is it worth to you?"
As it turned out, it was worth 1500 DM.

Quote:
The Berlin police department eventually admitted they had decided to go along with Darmstadt's identification, and Heinz Drescher of Berlin Police Headquarters said that he had signed certain documents saying that identity has been established. "According to the material we have from the Haus-und-Vermoegensverwalten of the former Grand Duke of Hesse, and from various notices in the press, the alleged Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia, is, in reality, Franziska Schanzkowska, born on 16.12.96 in Borowihlas, and this is supposedly proved definitively."
Quote:

Hess. Polizeiamten Darmstadt, 20.5.27
"Erkennungsdienst" [Identification Service]
"Referring to the so-called Anastasia of Russia"
"From the Berlin daily report ["Tagesbericht"] No. 32 of 20.4.27 it is signed and signified officially as established that the identity of the `Unbekannte' has been completely assured as being that of Franziska Schanzkowska by the `Kriminalzentrale' of Darmstadt.
"All of this has been taken up and accepted by the police of Berlin.
From Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson:

When Harriet von Rathlef sent Fritz Schuricht, a private detective, down to police headquarters in the spring on 1927, Schuricht found that the police did indeed regard Anastasia's case as closed, but not because they knew any more about it than he did. On the contrary, their colleagues in Darmstadt had written to inform them that the "unmasking" was a fact. As matters stood, however, no one was willing to take the responsibility. "We did not establish the identity," the police in Darmstsd were quick to explain. "We did not take part in the work of the identification."

Later, it became clear that Nachtausgabe and Martin Knopf was behind the whole "identification".
  #664  
Old 06-28-2008, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Hid under the sheets? I have no idea what you are referring to. When Alexander came to see her in Unterlengenhardt in the company of Ian Lilburn, she saw from a distance that he "had to be a descendant of Grand Duke Alexander, I recognize him on his ocean-like walk."
That ocean comment could have been told to her by anyone. Here's a post by someone I know and a former AA supporter:

It has been pointed out by various authors (GIlliard, Klier, Welch etc) that Anna reacted very oddly when confronted with individuals who had known the real Anastasia. At times she would simply refuse their visit. This includes at least one of Anastasia's first cousins (Son of Xenia Alexandrovna) When she did meet with them (sometimes these visits were forced or surprise visits) Anna would usually stop speaking and hide her face from her visitors, either by covering her face with a kerchief (during Sydney Gibbes visit), an bed sheet (during Baroness Buxhoeveden's visit) , or simply leave the room (during Princess Irene's visit). This way she prevented any false steps in either etiquette, speech or memories.

Quote:
What money? Gleb Botkin was written up in AA's will, but he made arrangements for any monies coming his way to go directly to the American Red Cross.
That was the will, it said nothing of what he may have received while she was still alive, or what could have been 'laundered' through other accounts. Of course she outlived him and there was no money so it ended up not to matter.

Quote:

Grandanor was instigated by Edward Fallows as a way to pay for AA's legal costs. If any fortune were to be found, the investors would be paid back handsomely. Gleb Botkin had nothing to do with it, he didn't have a penny to invest anyway.
Legal costs of the fight for the alleged Romanov family fortune! It was indeed his idea and he is the one who employed Fallows. (Godl, Welch, Lovell, and 'The Botkin Familie' website:

"he founded in 1929 Grandanor corp..."

Translated version of http://www.botkine.com/FAMILLE/HISTOIRE/index.php?t1=Histoire&t2=&r=TEXTES/gleb.php

Quote:
She went to America as the guest of Xenia Leeds.
At the negotiation of Botkin. When they arrived, she had gone on holiday and wasn't there to meet them. Shows just how interested she was in her 'cousin'. Welch's book also tells of how Leed's husband didn't approve of AA and how AA hated him and seemed happy when he was injured in a boat explosion.


Quote:
Not exactly. When Doris Wingender, who had "recognized" FS from a blurry photo of AA in the paper, "from which you could recognize anybody or nobody", walked into Fritz Lucke's office, her first words were: "Look, I've got some information about you Anastasia. How much is it worth to you?"
Quote:
As it turned out, it was worth 1500 DM.
So what if she wanted money? She was poor, times were hard, and she saw her way to earn some easy cash. She must have felt fortunate to have had contact with a 'famous' person. This doesn't mean she was lying. People sell their TRUE stories of famous people to magazines, newspapers, and now Entertainment Tonight for large sums of money all the time. Larry Birkhead and Howard K. Stern are millionaires for life thanks to their tearful accounts of Anna Nicole Smith. What's the difference if she wants to profit from AA's story, or if Botkin or Rathlef do the same?

When they met in person, she knew it was FS, and AA/FS recognized her too:

page 180, account of a writer for the paper:

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.

Quote:
"We did not establish the identity," the police in Darmstsd were quick to explain. "We did not take part in the work of the identification."

Later, it became clear that Nachtausgabe and Martin Knopf was behind the whole "identification".
Well, of course it was Ernie's detective. What with the Kapp Putsch and hyperinflation and all, the police didn't have the time, money or personal interest to investigate fully, but Ernie had all three. The Berlin Police agreed with the Darmstadt ID, that's all that matters.
  #665  
Old 06-28-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrymansdaughter View Post
What are the chances that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schanskowksa based on DNA?
By DaveK
Just who is this "DNA expert"?
I doubt that any one knows. He posted all of this on another forum. I don't think he credentials were ever established.
  #666  
Old 06-28-2008, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
That ocean comment could have been told to her by anyone. Here's a post by someone I know and a former AA supporter:
How could anybody have told her the ocean comment when she was the one who uttered it?

Quote:
It has been pointed out by various authors (GIlliard, Klier, Welch etc) that Anna reacted very oddly when confronted with individuals who had known the real Anastasia. At times she would simply refuse their visit. This includes at least one of Anastasia's first cousins (Son of Xenia Alexandrovna) When she did meet with them (sometimes these visits were forced or surprise visits) Anna would usually stop speaking and hide her face from her visitors, either by covering her face with a kerchief (during Sydney Gibbes visit), an bed sheet (during Baroness Buxhoeveden's visit) , or simply leave the room (during Princess Irene's visit). This way she prevented any false steps in either etiquette, speech or memories.


And when her aunt Olga came to see her, she beamed. Same with Shura. And Xenia. And Crown Princess Cecilie. And Tatiana Botkin. Gleb she had reservations about, she thought he only came to write for the papers. But when she saw him, she went up to him, gave him her hand and said: "Oh, how do you do."
But faced with Rachmaninov who had never seen AN and had no possibility of identifying her, she covered her face with the blanket again.


Quote:
That was the will, it said nothing of what he may have received while she was still alive, or what could have been 'laundered' through other accounts. Of course she outlived him and there was no money so it ended up not to matter.
Sorry, I said ANY MONIES. Will or no will.

Quote:
Legal costs of the fight for the alleged Romanov family fortune! It was indeed his idea and he is the one who employed Fallows. (Godl, Welch, Lovell, and 'The Botkin Familie' website:
Legal costs to establish her identity.

Quote:
"he founded in 1929 Grandanor corp..."
Edward Fallows founded Grandanor. At the time, Gleb was no longer speaking to AA, they had a falling out, and it lasted for 10 years.

Quote:
At the negotiation of Botkin. When they arrived, she had gone on holiday and wasn't there to meet them. Shows just how interested she was in her 'cousin'. Welch's book also tells of how Leed's husband didn't approve of AA and how AA hated him and seemed happy when he was injured in a boat explosion.
Xenia and mr. Leeds had marital problems, and quite frankly, I don't think it helped to have AA in the house. But I see nothing about her being happy about Leeds being injured or that she hated him. She only seemed to disapprove of his cavorting around with "dancing ladies and secretaries."

Quote:
So what if she wanted money? She was poor, times were hard, and she saw her way to earn some easy cash. She must have felt fortunate to have had contact with a 'famous' person. This doesn't mean she was lying. People sell their TRUE stories of famous people to magazines, newspapers, and now Entertainment Tonight for large sums of money all the time. Larry Birkhead and Howard K. Stern are millionaires for life thanks to their tearful accounts of Anna Nicole Smith. What's the difference if she wants to profit from AA's story, or if Botkin or Rathlef do the same?
But if she was telling the truth, why did she change the month when FS came to see her to make it fit with AA's disappearance from the Kleists? Why did she always carry her little black book with her to consult every time she was asked about the case? Why were there notes written by Martin Knopf in her little "aide memoire"? Why did she refuse to take the oath in court? Why did she run away from court? Why did she not address FS by name during their meeting? Seems to me that she was telling anything but the truth.

Quote:
When they met in person, she knew it was FS, and AA/FS recognized her too:

page 180, account of a writer for the paper:

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.


We have already been through this National Enquirer version. See earlier post on the same subject.

Quote:
Well, of course it was Ernie's detective. What with the Kapp Putsch and hyperinflation and all, the police didn't have the time, money or personal interest to investigate fully, but Ernie had all three. The Berlin Police agreed with the Darmstadt ID, that's all that matters.
Of course it was Ernie's detective and the Nachtausgabe. Who was paid 20,000 (or 25,000) DM for their trouble. One can only wonder why Grand Duke Ernest was willing to shell out all this money for a mere impostor.
  #667  
Old 06-28-2008, 08:51 PM
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Another question: If the Berlin Police agreed with Darmstadt and the case was closed, how come she still obtained a passport and a visa to go to USA?
  #668  
Old 06-28-2008, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Another question: If the Berlin Police agreed with Darmstadt and the case was closed, how come she still obtained a passport and a visa to go to USA?

You tell me! Like I posted earlier, I read somewhere (Welch's book?) that Ernie and Gilliard were about to have her declared a fraud when Botkin took her to America (and this is one reason they left) Note her passport was not in the name of "Grand Duchess Anastasia" either.

Why would Ernie do it? How about to stop a fraud from stealing his dead niece's identity and profiting from it? You really do underestimate and ignore what grief Ernie, Olga A., Xenia, Irene, etc. must have felt losing so many family members to horrible deaths. If someone murdered my niece and somebody tried to steal her identity to make money I'd want to stop them wouldn't you?
  #669  
Old 06-28-2008, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
You tell me! Like I posted earlier, I read somewhere (Welch's book?) that Ernie and Gilliard were about to have her declared a fraud when Botkin took her to America (and this is one reason they left) Note her passport was not in the name of "Grand Duchess Anastasia" either.
From Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson:
It was a great relief to the Duke, in any case, when the Bavarian police renewed Anastasia's identity certificate under the name of Tschaikovsky. For the rest of the year they let her keep it, refusing to give in to repeated requests from Darmstadt that she be expelled or arrested for fraud.

There you are.


Quote:
Why would Ernie do it? How about to stop a fraud from stealing his dead niece's identity and profiting from it? You really do underestimate and ignore what grief Ernie, Olga A., Xenia, Irene, etc. must have felt losing so many family members to horrible deaths. If someone murdered my niece and somebody tried to steal her identity to make money I'd want to stop them wouldn't you?
And how come he never lifted a finger against her until Amy Smith told about AA having seen him in Russia during the war? He certainly had enough time. And AA profiting from it? Surely you jest.
  #670  
Old 06-28-2008, 11:01 PM
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Chat, I'm not going through the Uncle Ernie's trip thing again. I don't want to sound rude, and I know those who aren't on aall the other other boards couldn't understand just how frustrating this repetition is. It's like a dog chasing his tail, and while you have not stumped me or changed my mind on anything, I'm going to have to take a break from this vicious circle. I have answered everything numerous times. Bottom line, none of this petty stuff matters anymore now that AA has been proven not to be AN and all the bodies are accounted for.

Isn't 34 pages very long for a thread here? I thought they closed at 10?
  #671  
Old 06-28-2008, 11:09 PM
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When you are ready for Uncle Ernie's trip, I have a long line of witnesses I would like to present you with.
  #672  
Old 06-28-2008, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Chat, I'm not going through the Uncle Ernie's trip thing again. I don't want to sound rude, and I know those who aren't on aall the other other boards couldn't understand just how frustrating this repetition is. It's like a dog chasing his tail, and while you have not stumped me or changed my mind on anything, I'm going to have to take a break from this vicious circle. I have answered everything numerous times. Bottom line, none of this petty stuff matters anymore now that AA has been proven not to be AN and all the bodies are accounted for.

Isn't 34 pages very long for a thread here? I thought they closed at 10?
The current-events threads are multi-part threads that close at 10 pages. Some other long-running threads can close at 20 pages or thereabouts. Others just run on. It depends on how the thread is looking.

Considering the number of warnings that the moderators have had to post, this thread isn't looking all that great, to be honest. The forum moderators are reviewing it at the moment, which means that it may be closed fairly soon or there may be some strict ground rules posted with consequences for people who continue to ignore them.
  #673  
Old 06-28-2008, 11:37 PM
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You may refer to my website for all I have to say on the subject. It really doesn't matter if he made the trip or not, the rumor was out there already and published in a German book 3 years before she made the accusation as well as in a Russian book. So it's no 'bomb' 'only she knew' like you try to make it out to be.
  #674  
Old 06-29-2008, 01:26 AM
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Also, according to Darmstadt, the Entente Press had also published something to the fact that the trip did take place. Makes one wonder, doesn't it.
  #675  
Old 06-29-2008, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ChatNoir View Post
Another question: If the Berlin Police agreed with Darmstadt and the case was closed, how come she still obtained a passport and a visa to go to USA?
Perhaps Berlin wanted to get rid of her and facilitated her exit.
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Old 06-29-2008, 09:02 AM
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Here's something I saw in my paper yesterday that reminded me of FS and how she wasn't reported missing right away. The family of a local man just now reported him missing, saying they hadn't heard from him for three weeks. (same time it took FS to be reported missing from the time she jumped into the canal) They had finally become concerned since no one has seen or heard from him that long. (Apparently, it wasn't at all unusual not to hear from him for one or two weeks, even in these days of cell phones and email) They said the last they heard of him (3 weeks ago) he had talked to his sister and mentioned he was taking a vacation. They had made attempts to contact him which have gone unanswered, but after 3 weeks finally became concerned. He was missing from his home, and no one knows what happened to him. But it took them awhile to think anything was wrong.

A few nights ago on the news, there was a story of a man being reported missing by his family because he had moved out of state in JANUARY and still had not contacted them. He turned out to be just fine and living somewhere else, he just didn't check in with anyone. So this proves that even in these days of close and instant contact, it still happens. So it's nothing for 1920!
  #677  
Old 06-29-2008, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Chat, I'm not going through the Uncle Ernie's trip thing again. I don't want to sound rude, and I know those who aren't on aall the other other boards couldn't understand just how frustrating this repetition is. It's like a dog chasing his tail, and while you have not stumped me or changed my mind on anything, I'm going to have to take a break from this vicious circle. I have answered everything numerous times. Bottom line, none of this petty stuff matters anymore now that AA has been proven not to be AN and all the bodies are accounted for.

Isn't 34 pages very long for a thread here? I thought they closed at 10?
I really understand. You have been going over the same information with Chat. I really appreciate your hard time you put to use your very accurate information. It is true you have answered things many times already, again.You can't prove anything wrong against the DNA or the fact that she looks different from Anastasia in photographs. It's already been proven many times that AA wan't Anastasia.
  #678  
Old 06-29-2008, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Perhaps Berlin wanted to get rid of her and facilitated her exit.
She was at that time far from Berlin and under the jurisdiction of the Bavarian police.
  #679  
Old 06-29-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska View Post
Here's something I saw in my paper yesterday that reminded me of FS and how she wasn't reported missing right away. The family of a local man just now reported him missing, saying they hadn't heard from him for three weeks. (same time it took FS to be reported missing from the time she jumped into the canal) They had finally become concerned since no one has seen or heard from him that long. (Apparently, it wasn't at all unusual not to hear from him for one or two weeks, even in these days of cell phones and email) They said the last they heard of him (3 weeks ago) he had talked to his sister and mentioned he was taking a vacation. They had made attempts to contact him which have gone unanswered, but after 3 weeks finally became concerned. He was missing from his home, and no one knows what happened to him. But it took them awhile to think anything was wrong.

A few nights ago on the news, there was a story of a man being reported missing by his family because he had moved out of state in JANUARY and still had not contacted them. He turned out to be just fine and living somewhere else, he just didn't check in with anyone. So this proves that even in these days of close and instant contact, it still happens. So it's nothing for 1920!
And FS lived as a family member with the Wingenders, not alone in some little cottage way out in the country. Mrs. Wingender, according to her testimony, kept close tabs on FS, her comings and goings.
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:49 PM
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She was at that time far from Berlin and under the jurisdiction of the Bavarian police.
Out of Bavaria then. Let us say as far a way as possible from Germany to relieve them of an embarassment.
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